poppy legalities usa

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Monk]

Teljkon, P. somniferum (and thus paeoniflorum) are most certainly illegal in the USA! Check this out: www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/listby_sched/sched2.htm

As stated in that gardening writers link, it is often tolerated or unnoticed in small amounts, but that wouldn't stop a person from being prosecuted if it were noticed or stopped being tolerated Better safe than sorry, especially if you're not an innocent soccer mom who's never touched anything more intoxicating than a glass of wine.

EDIT: copy paste it. sorry if I pissed anybody off with that link; didn't think about the electronic ramifications

Edited January 13, 2008 by FM.

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Monk]

Teljkon, um, how much more credible can you get than the official DEA website?! That shit is illegal no matter what anyone else says, 'cuz Papaver somniferum is specifically listed on the link I posted. Here's the other thing: There's a law on the books in the great states of Americanistan that states that a container for a controlled substance is illegal in and of itself. So, whether P. paeoniflorum is a distinct species or not (it's not; it's a variety of somniferum,) it contains some quantity of morphine. It is, therefore, controlled. Likewise, if someone genetically engineered a california poppy to produce morphine and was found/proved to be in posession of it, they'd be fucked because it's a container for an illegal substance.

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Monk]

Here's the thing, Teljkon; if they want to screw a person, that person is screwed. It's not so much about whether the DEA can prove it's case. It's more about whether the defendant can afford to defend themselves. Can you afford 50-100 thousand dollars for an adequate lawyer to defend a controlled substance cultivation charge? That's what will be needed to assert your freedom to cultivate 'breadseed poppies' for whatever reason the lawyers claim. The government agencies know they can bully regular folks with the threat of a long, drawn out legal battle and they do it all the time. If you're not rich and powerful or supported by some kind of special interest group, the government's funds and power will trump yours. Like all other regular or 'poor' people, you'll be saddled with whatever they give you. In the modern world, a person is not 'innocent until proven guilty,' they are innocent if they can afford to prove that they are innocent. Freedom costs large sums of money. Furthermore, the genetics, breed, variety, or species of a plant doesn't matter at all! If the plant contains a scheduled substance, that plant is illegal because it is a 'container' for said illegal substance. Better safe than sorry...and seriously consider whether you can afford the kind of fight that you would risk here.

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Monk]

The poppy species, Papaver orientale is very different than P. somniferum and contains no scheduled substances. It is, therefore, legal to grow. It contains oripavine, thebaine, and alpinigenine. You can find info on the first two on wikipedia, so take a look at that first. If you do decide to try them (not sure if you should or not - doesn't sound very good,) post your results in the ethnobotany forum. Happy gardening.

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Monk]

Im not trying to be a prick on this im just trying to discuss.

I'm not sure what made you think I thought you were being a prick, I'm just pointing you in the direction of good, factual information for further research.

Cloves containe a harvestable amount of THC dose that not make cloves Illegal to??

Um, no, because this statement is false. Cloves contain no (0.0%) THC. The oil of cloves contains mostly eugenol with a few other essential oils. Here's a good reference on that: Google Book Results "Source of Flavors" Page 237 in that book has what you're looking for. If you are refering to the 'buzz' caused by smoking cloves, it's caused by the eugenol. Now, regarding this statement:

its kind of like the same thing with Papavera Giganteum even if it may containe as much active alchaloids

Teljkon, I don't know how to state this more clearly; "giganteum" is not a species. It is a cultivated variety. The complete name is, therefore, Papaver somniferum var. giganteum. It does contain controlled substances and is illegal to grow (if anyone decided to care or pay attention to it - quite a gamble.)

There are alot of containers of illegal substances out there is there a % in the plant that makes it illegal?

No, there is no percentage cut off. It's more about whether a person gets caught or someone decides to care or figures out what that person has. Illegal is illegal, getting in trouble depends on lots of factors.

some part of me never lost that little kid that asks to many questions.

That's one of the main things necessary to gaining understanding about life The other factor is listening to the answers that are given

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[tobydoo]

Thanks for breaking it down for me

There are many shops in the US, including a major grocery store chain, that sell P. Somniferum seeds. It isn't illegal to sell the seeds or to grow them. It is illegal to "score" them or to boil the pods. It is the extration of the opium that is illegal. Many people have and use them in thier landscapes as well as for cooking.

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Monk]

Check the link that FM has it is indeed illegal to grow them, per DEA shcedualing. Not trying to be conflictive but from my research on the law is you can be jailed. Enforcment is a diffrent storie I would actually feel quite comfortable growing theses and scoring them and all in my back yard but honestly its not worth the risk theres other ways to get high. Im currently exploring a alternative poppy that is not shcedualed as a controlled substance by the DEA and has better legal grounds for use. Ie its chemically difrent enough that it would make a much better legal argument but similar enough to have the same effect. All opiots are controlled saposidly so you cant extract it unfortionatly. But un like somniferum there is not schedualing that says its Illegal.

That sums it up nicely, Teljkon.

There are many shops in the US, including a major grocery store chain, that sell P. Somniferum seeds. It isn't illegal to sell the seeds or to grow them. It is illegal to "score" them or to boil the pods. It is the extration of the opium that is illegal. Many people have and use them in thier landscapes as well as for cooking.

Yeah, tobydoo. This is a very common misconception that is seen everywhere (especially the internet and amongst gardeners.) To find out the nitty gritty of it all, you have to go straight to the schedule 2 page. Copy paste this, www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/listby_sched/sched2.htm, into your browser. I don't really want to link it to this site

Did you read the whole thread? It spells it out clear as day and has been summarized well by Teljkon in the above post.

Edited March 19, 2008 by FM.

[Auxin]

If the plant contains a scheduled substance, that plant is illegal because it is a 'container' for said illegal substance.

Thats australian law, not a US law, and even in Oz its not fully enforced. In the US plants are only illegal as banned drugs if 1) they are listed as banned plants (poppy, marijuana, iboga, coca, and peyote) or 2) Have some evidence of preparation as drugs. Otherwise heres a few that would be illegal: Phalaris spp., Desmanthus spp., morning glories, barley, potatoes, Psychotria spp, Trichocereus spp., etc, etc, et al., ad finitum. If your caught mashing morning glory seeds in a make-shift laboratory your arrested and put in jail but alternately its perfectly legal to have B. caapi and Psychotria viridis growing side by side surrounded by T. pachanoi so long as theres no evidence of consumption or intent to consume.

(for those of you that were confused by barley and potatoes, they both contain valium derivatives that would be illegal under the drug analog laws if they were prepared for consumption)

Edited March 19, 2008 by Auxin

[Monk]

Thats australian law, not a US law, and even in Oz its not fully enforced. In the US plants are only illegal as banned drugs if 1) they are listed as banned plants (poppy, marijuana, iboga, coca, and peyote) or 2) Have some evidence of preparation as drugs. Otherwise heres a few that would be illegal: Phalaris spp., Desmanthus spp., morning glories, barley, potatoes, Psychotria spp, Trichocereus spp., etc, etc, et al., ad finitum. If your caught mashing morning glory seeds in a make-shift laboratory your arrested and put in jail but alternately its perfectly legal to have B. caapi and Psychotria viridis growing side by side surrounded by T. pachanoi so long as theres no evidence of consumption or intent to consume.

(for those of you that were confused by barley and potatoes, they both contain valium derivatives that would be illegal under the drug analog laws if they were prepared for consumption)

I suppose I did oversimplify there and I do agree with your assertion. For me, the tricky part is the fact that there is plenty of legal precedent in the USA for the 'container' prosecution to work (prosecutions for non-listed mushroom species, san pedro cases etc.) All they have to do is establish 'intent to consume' as you noted. What does that mean? Does having books about traditional use, ethnobotany, psychoactive plants etc. count? What about computer history at sites like this with info on said use? In our social climate, I feel that unless you are rich and can afford a damn good attorney, they could succeed with this type of prosecution. It is a grey area, but it's important to remember that we only have rights if we can afford to assert them legally; particularly in these grey areas with our current regime.

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Monk]

Thats australian law, not a US law, and even in Oz its not fully enforced. In the US plants are only illegal as banned drugs if 1) they are listed as banned plants

Actually, Auxin and Teljkon, there is a line in the Controlled Substances Act (of the US) that covers this. It states the following:

© Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any material, compound, mixture, or preparation, which contains any quantity of the following [scheduled substance will be considered scheduled also]

Linky:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/21/usc_s...12----000-.html

Auxin, I realize this is a highly grey area as far as the definition of "material, compound, mixture or preparation," but my point is that if they really want to try you for it, they can and will. Then it's up to you to defend yourself, which will be expensive especially in grey areas.

Teljkon, any extracts of plants with scheduled compounds in them would certainly fall under the above clause with very little grey-ness. That would clearly be a "preparation."

EDIT: And teljkon, I know iboga is schedule 1 in the US and I'm fairly certain is the equivalent in Oz as well.

Edited March 22, 2008 by FM.

[Torsten]

Iboga is not scheduled in australia. it is a drug prohibited import.

[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Torsten]

Teljkon - every country has different legal interpretatiosn of the words preparation, substance etc. There is little point in someone without legal experience to start interpreting these. It is best to look at case law to seee how the courts deal with them. However that isn't the full story either, as even if a court would not convict on something, there is nothing stopping the cops from using the literal meaning of the law to fuck up your life in many other ways.

So, as it stands the law states quite clearly what is legal an what is not and FM has a pretty good handle on this. As far as convictions go, Teljkon is probably more on the money with his interpretation. So, if you don't mind having your house torn apart and your rights violated then follow Teljkon's interpretation, but if you want to avoid that then follow Fm's.

Teljkon, some of your examples really don't help your argument. Simply because something makes you drowsy doesn't mean it contains an illegal drug [eg turkey]. In the case of potatoes it's a pharmaceutical drug, not an illegal or 'dangerous drug'. I think with poppies the case is pretty clearcut. Look at case law - you don't need to scrape poppies in the USA to get busted!

As for 'preparation', this is defined by definition in the act or by case law. In australia it means any human intervention and even includes 'picking'. So in Oz in those states where the law threshold is preparation [most states] you are breaking the law as soon as you pick a leaf that contains an illegal drug.

In the UK the courts have ruled that picking is not enough to justify preparation and there the threshold is drying.

What worries me most about USA law is that their threshold is 'material'. This would be quite similar to 'substance' which is what the Qld law uses as threshold. In Qld you can be arrested for possessing a plant that contains an illegal drug even if you did not harvest any part of it because the law regards 'plant' as 'substance'. I would think that the USA judges could similarly interpret 'material' to include 'plants'.

[trucha]

Opium poppies are specifically against the law to grow or to use in the US.

That said no one really cares about people who grow them. They might if a patch was noticed to be actively milked but so far as I know of there has never been a successful prosecution for poppy cultivation and less than a handful of charges filed ever since the law took effect many decades ago.

I doubt there is any US city with decent weather where one can not observe opium poppies growing in yards and gardens every spring.

In Oakland they even show up in 4 inch pots at area hardware store clearly labeled by name.

Plenty of seed suppliers stock them and some offer only high potency forms.

No one I know of has run into trouble for growing the plants or selling the seeds.

Jim Hogshire, the author of PillsAGoGo, got arrested for possession of dried florist pods but interestingly enough the primary evidence presented against him was his book Opium for the Masses and the reason for the harassment appeared to be the direct result of some sort of a personal dispute involving a firearm not the decorative poppy pods he had purchased legally via the mail. The opium charge was dismissed but he had some sort of an unrelated explosive or weapons charge he did not get out of. His commercial poppy pod supplier was not harrassed btw.

One woman in the Bay area simply claimed ignorance as to why hundreds of the thousands of pods in her garden were scored for milking and had the charges dismissed.

Some years ago I was perplexed on this very topic and called the DEA to ask their opinion. I was told if I was not obviously using them or cultivating a large enough quantity to be thought of as a commercial drug crop they had no reason to care.

Illegal yes but not of concern without something else entering the picture.

The only trouble I have ever ran into was people stealing pods and trampling on my other garden plants in the process.

How much of a risk it would pose to grow them would be more a matter of what one had to risk than the poppies themselves. It would be pretty stupid to grow poppies outside of an indoor grow scene or if one had more illegalities in their life.

Walter DeRopp makes a good point about it being a very dumb thing to deliberately provoke a rhinocereus.

Edited March 25, 2008 by trucha

[reshroomED]

Man turns Safeway seeds to opium

November 8 2002

By Steve Butcher

Homegrown opium poppies.

A Victorian judge was shocked yesterday at how a drug addict was able to grow 230 opium poppies at home from seeds bought from the herbs section of a supermarket.

Judge James Duggan was told it was possible that Ronald Mark Fiddes had bought untreated imported poppy seeds that produced the prohibited plants.

Prosecutor Chris Ryan confirmed it was possible for someone to grow opium plants from untreated overseas seeds, whereas all poppy seeds grown in Australia were treated.

The County Court heard that police found two crops weighing a total of 37 kilograms in the front and back yard of Fiddes' Lower Plenty unit on November 20, 2001.

Mr Ryan said the capsules of some plants showed evidence of scoring from a sharp blade that meant the opium sap or resin had been harvested.

<script>

Morphine formed about 1 to 3 per cent of the resin while Fiddes' crop would have produced a quantity of opium about half the size of a cricket ball, he said.

It was accepted, he said, that Fiddes had not trafficked the opium and had grown it for personal use.

Joe Toal, defending, said Fiddes, 40, had been "totally soaked" in drugs, mostly heroin, morphine or methadone, for about 20 years.

Fiddes had been a methadone addict for 10 years from 1989 before he decided to get off it and start working as a labourer. After a serious back injury, he unsuccessfully applied to legally obtain morphine for pain relief. Then he had been told about growing poppies for opium.

"He wanted to keep to himself and not bother anyone and try and create a situation that was physically tolerable for him," Mr Toal said.

So Fiddes went to a Safeway store, selected two bags of poppy seeds from the herbs section, planted them, and "they took off", he said.

Judge Duggan said he found such a scenario "mind-boggling".

Fiddes got between 10 and 12 fingernail-sized balls of opium, which he swallowed with water, that helped with his morphine addiction and pain control.

Fiddes, an industrial spray painter, of Main Road, Lower Plenty, pleaded guilty to cultivating a narcotic plant and to possessing marijuana.

In his sentencing remarks, Judge Duggan said he was surprised that Fiddes had been able to "plant an illegal crop so simply". He jailed Fiddes for two years with one year suspended for 24 months.

source

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[Teljkon]

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Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon