4-D viewing

[Thelema]

Have you ever wondered what it would be like to see things from a 4-D space perspective?

Consider this, a square from a 2-D space perspective seems like a line. When you transcend to a 3-D space perspective you see the whole square; all of the sides, the inside and the outside "all at once". Similarly, from a 3-D perspective, when we see a cube, we see a surface projection, but transcending to a 4-D perspective we see all surfaces of the cube at once, including it's inside as well as it's outside.

Could it be that as the brain is forming a body of perspective for itself it originally sees things in 4-D and gradually, as it forms a "perspective" denegrates that vision into 3D?

Could what we call "consciousness" just be this denegration from 4-D space (with time) to 3-D space (with time)?

And could psychedelics be the way of releasing the brain's hold on that degenerate pattern;the pattern of perspective, that propells us back into seeing space as 4-D?

[KanJe]

Have you ever wondered what it would be like to see things from a 4-D space perspective?

Consider this, a square from a 2-D space perspective seems like a line. When you transcend to a 3-D space perspective you see the whole square; all of the sides, the inside and the outside "all at once". Similarly, from a 3-D perspective, when we see a cube, we see a surface projection, but transcending to a 4-D perspective we see all surfaces of the cube at once, including it's inside as well as it's outside.

Could it be that as the brain is forming a body of perspective for itself it originally sees things in 4-D and gradually, as it forms a "perspective" denegrates that vision into 3D?

Could what we call "consciousness" just be this denegration from 4-D space (with time) to 3-D space (with time)?

And could psychedelics be the way of releasing the brain's hold on that degenerate pattern;the pattern of perspective, that propells us back into seeing space as 4-D?

I just wanted to check what your definition of '4-D' is as I have read different explanations for this dimention...

Do you see the concept of '4-D' as an equivalent to time?

Edited October 2, 2007 by KanJe

[devance]

Yeah, I think you got it right Thelema.

But very difficult to do.

Psychedelics may give a certain objectivity factor but never truely cross the barrior into a multidimensional perception.

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http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/crick_lsd.htm

I not a big fan of Psychedelics is the gateway.

'Shortly afterwards I visited Crick at his home, Golden Helix, in Cambridge. He listened with rapt, amused attention to what I told him about the role of LSD in his Nobel Prize-winning discovery. He gave no intimation of surprise. When I had finished, he said: "Print a word of it and I'll sue."

Sounds like gonzo reporting after a dead man can't say anything.

[devance]

'3-D space perspective you see the whole square; all of the sides, the inside and the outside "all at once". Similarly, from a 3-D perspective, when we see a cube, we see a surface projection, but transcending to a 4-D perspective we see all surfaces of the cube at once, including it's inside as well as it's outside.'

It takes a extra-dimensional viewpoint to say well theres the 3D or 4D.

True a 4D.

It just seems like its impossible.

But very easy.

Alot more fun when there is 4D perception.

And 5D which is time.

A 6D is beyond me.

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[nothinghead]

KanJe, I think in this example time is not considered as a dimension. This is an added spatial dimension.

Thelema - have you read flatland?

[devance]

The terms are to be defined.

A 3D virtual suite as a computer doesn't make it.

1-distance

2-time

3-energy

The triangle that has matter combined in the center.

[Thelema]

yes, I'm considering 4th as an extra spatial dimension. So this would be a 4+1 D universe.

devance raises a very important point about having to be in a higher dimension in order to refer to a lower dimension. This is the case. And yes, I have read flatland, of course. But consider this - design a philosophy of reference that already embedds you in this 4d space, so that even the idea of reference would divide it...so that the idea of reference cuts it up into 3d+1 chunks. You cannot refer to this 4+1 space, because you ARE it, and referring divorces you from your true self.

[devance]

There was a Sc Fi novel called flatland.

I don't know if its the one talked about.

Something about a grim city society pulling a black whole slowly by mechanical means in a circular manner across the globe. Otherwise the powersourse would be gone.

The time distortion creates a barrior.

But of course someone has to cross the barrior for a sceenplay ending.

The actor in "Die hard" would be a natural,

But a happy ending of course.

[devance]

Bruce Willis in the 12 Monkeys.

'# Genres: Drama, Sci-Fi, Thriller

# Tagline: The future is history.

# Plot Outline In a future world devastated by disease, a convict is sent back in time to gather information about the man-made virus that wiped out most of the human population on the planet.

# Plot Synopsis: An unknown and lethal virus has wiped out five billion people in 1996. Only 1% of the population has survived by the year 2035, and is forced to live underground. A convict (James Cole) reluctantly volunteers to be sent back in time to 1996 to gather information about the origin of the epidemic (who he's told was spread by a mysterious "Army of the Twelve Monkeys") and locate the virus before it mutates so that scientists can study it. Unfortunately Cole is mistakenly sent to 1990, six years earlier than expected, and is arrested and locked up in a mental institution, where he meets Dr. Kathryn Railly, a psychiatrist, and Jeffrey Goines, the insane son of a famous scientist and virus expert.'

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A great actor.

[The Dude]

Bruce Willis in the 12 Monkeys.

'# Genres: Drama, Sci-Fi, Thriller

# Tagline: The future is history.

# Plot Outline In a future world devastated by disease, a convict is sent back in time to gather information about the man-made virus that wiped out most of the human population on the planet.

# Plot Synopsis: An unknown and lethal virus has wiped out five billion people in 1996. Only 1% of the population has survived by the year 2035, and is forced to live underground. A convict (James Cole) reluctantly volunteers to be sent back in time to 1996 to gather information about the origin of the epidemic (who he's told was spread by a mysterious "Army of the Twelve Monkeys") and locate the virus before it mutates so that scientists can study it. Unfortunately Cole is mistakenly sent to 1990, six years earlier than expected, and is arrested and locked up in a mental institution, where he meets Dr. Kathryn Railly, a psychiatrist, and Jeffrey Goines, the insane son of a famous scientist and virus expert.'

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A great actor.

-SPOILER-sorta

I don't know about his great acting abilities but i absolutely fucking love that movie! together with Donnie Darko with their whacky paradoxical timeloops .. they also show the futility of ones actions in re-directing what is 'fate' that is our entire self with its emotive states and memories and prescience exists as a "timeless body" transcending the 4th dimension of time (lets say it is for arguments sake), so that every experience and action taken is 'destined' to lead to the inevitable 'end'. Fatalism i guess, but to me it shows the continuity of the entirety of our bbody throughout the higher dimension as having a defined form that is 'destined to happen' see at the same time i think of destiny as effecting those who do not make their own change, but this movie suggested that every action he took would still lead him to his fate, even if he had seen it coming, whatever action was taken was the action needed for it to happen so that he could 'see it coming' in the first place... I feel so trapped!

The thing i love about it though is how time-travel/insanity are both convincing realities superimposed onto the situation, which one is real is up to the observer, it's your choice whether you reduce reality to consensus or have a far-fetched fantasy... which in this case was true.

-spoiler end-

Anyhow there are no absolutes I say and fatalism is one of them, the rules can be bent or broken.

also Thelema, totally get what you're saying that self-referencing implies disconnection from totality so it is impossible from a higher dimensional perspective. However i must say that 4d viewing is far from totality as it is only every 'incarante' instance of spatial configurations of matter that is present in our collectively shared timelines.. or perhaps whatever hypothetical timeline you are viewing. "Totality" extends into the infinite possible timelines and then theres the whole multiplication through infinity again when thinking of alternate realities altogether with their infinite timelines, stuff like that.

One could reffer to 4d reality symbolically through words and all that but cannot ever directly perceive it or re-create a 4d environment from our lower perspectives. With a 5d perspective, that is one of multiple 'totalities' one can see the begining and end (or the whole loop) of multiple 4d realities I can only imagine such a being as what the ancients called 'gods' some coherent 'body' that informs reality in a timeless way: the cycles are pre-existing, anybody ever read revelations, i never have, but supposedly many people predict shit and it kinda happens, cuz we can extrapolate the entire body of the god we are or the subset of god we are experiencing, perhaps through numerology or divination.. or science? :D I mean we predict the trajectories of comets and planets and stars yeah? thats a form of future divination.

Time travel is dangerous though:

Great scott! Jennifer could conceivably encounter her future self! The consequences of that could be disastrous!

... I foresee two possibilities. One, coming face to face with herself 30 years older would put her into shock and she would simply pass out. Or two, the encounter could create a time paradox, the results of which could start a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space time continuum, and destroy the entire universe! Granted, that's a worse case scenario. The destruction might in fact be very localized, limited to our own galaxy.

We'll test it out sooner or later, well i guess if we would it means we already have, in a way.

Here is a timemachine this guy designed earlier:

and this one is about fate and stuff...

here is a little writeup by the man himself about the last image. (scroll to bottom)

I just thought i'd share an insane lunatic of an artist's work.. this guy may well be a genius too!

[devance]

If the claim has two shells.

Not worth considering?

[devance]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_mussel

http://www.iisgcp.org/exoticsp/Chinese_Mitten_Crab.htm

The chi liove them but only when the crab starts down to the sea.

Like salmon.

The asians interest is within the gonads or rich roe .

Otherwise who would care about a 3 inch crab.

A better type of cavior?

Whats the difference but salt.

[phloom]

, thanks for the link el duderino.

I made time machine once, it was great....i went forward far enough to see the the genetic divisions of the human organism (wont spoilt it for you)

pity though i came back but just before the time i made the machine and id forgotten how I made it. So this that one might help

[devance]

http://www.amazon.com/Masks-Time-Robert-Si...g/dp/0575072180

"Book Description

Vornan-19 fell from the sky, naked, and landed on the Spanish steps in Rome on Christmas afternoon toward the end of the Millennium. And for Leo Garfield things would never be the same. For he is an acknowledged expert in the time reversal properties of sub-atomic particles...and Vornan-19 claims to come from far in the future. Whether or not he is telling the truth, a nervous and edgy world accepts the charming and magnetically charismatic Vornan as some kind of messiah. Even Garfield and his fellow scientists fall under Vornan's spell. But, has he really traveled across time--or is he just a charlatan and a fraud? A compassionate and powerful novel worthy of comparison to Stranger in a Strange Land.

Download Description

Physicist Leo Garfield's university project in time-reversal has successfully sent a few electrons into the unknown past, but the scientific barriers that prevent his work from progressing have Garfield suspecting that his life's work may never get past the starting gate. When a self-proclaimed time traveler from the year 2999 floats down from the sky above Rome and captures the world's attention as a prophet, Garfield escapes his laboratory frustrations to join a small group of experts attempting to determine if the charismatic man from the future is authentic."

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Charles_Wilson

I can't remember the first name but I think It was the last name.

wilson as the last name.

[devance]

A complicated topic.

I think its impossible to comprehend if just from a construction from down to up outlook.

For instance, time as a spacial dimension.

You have to be shown.

Clouds might stop moving or looking at the night sky would speed up [4 hours in 15 minutes].

But really just a way of showing that time is a dimension.

[The Dude]

Time is hard to imagine as a spatial dimension because we are blind to the higher dimensions, we are 3rd dimensional beings or 4th maybe, really we are multidimensional that is who we are but our awareness is funneled into a severly limited perspective.

I haven't read flatlander but I assume it discusses the inability for a 2 dimensional 'flatlander' to see things of depth as everything is flat for this being. The only way the flat lander would see 3d reality is layer by layer of 2d space, slices of the 3d space.

---

a quick thing about mobious strips. They are a 2 dimensional surface curved over into three dimensions in such a way that it is only in fact one sided and has only one edge, look it up for images or just make one, its a trippy 'paradox' of reality that is actually tangible.

Anyhow, consider the flatlander travelling along said mobius strip, from its perspective it is constantly moving forward oblivious to the fact that its actual movement is curving through higher dimensions, as they are unperceptible to it, it can only see its 2d reality. The flatlander would have no idea how or why (unless its into philosophical speculation about higher dimensions...) but it might notice that everything looks strangely familiar as it does a full loop of the mobius strip returning back where it started, "the begining is the end is the begining is the end"

---

We are supposedly travelling in a fixed straight line of time, it being but a single dimension, in our 3d space + 1 duration view of reality. It is strange that even though we experience time in one dimension that dimension is always moving forward also. I guess to have a full image of 4d reality we must be aware of every instance of time happening within this version of consensus reality. That is every manifested spatial configuration of anything that has been or will be (in this slice of reality) is simultaneously in existance and not as everything is temporal but in the timeless view it is there AND not. (crank this into higher dimensions and you have everything exisitng everywhere and nowhere simultaneously)

Now remember this is merely 1 time dimension but if we are to think of it as spatial it needs at least another 2, and then i'm not sure how spatiality is 'governed' in higher realities. Anyhow the idea is that we are moving in the x/y/z of time which gives form to the x/y/z of space/matter and the higher dimensional form would be a timeless 'diety' or set of geometric principles or the great architect.. that through its 'higher body' dynamically [1] dictates the instances of space/time that are experienced by its subjective views of itself, the connections are what lets us see the 'higher body'. What are these connections, there are physical connections; the chain of cause and effect is one aspect that we can see of the cohesive body, to create a model of the invisible unknown workings of reality, ala science / physics. Or there are METAphysical connections which transcend the limitations of cause and effect and seem to infact give rise to these lower aspects, this is another way of seeing the 'higher body' and this is usually modelled in religions and stuff, either way we're all painting the same picture cause we're all experiencing the same question.

*phew* what a rant, i realise that went no way to explaining time in terms of spatial dimesnions but it was a good brain shit (like a brain fart but this stinks for longer)

[1] Dynamically as in our freedom of choice Might be less of an illusion than i believe and the puppet tugs its pull, that is we as subjective aspects of the collective whole can re-direct the flow of the entirety, I'm unsure as to how much control the 'overmind' has over us. However I do consider the overmind to be the totality of natural phenomena which could be seen as true in the sense that we are at the mercy of nature and always within the system, our environment (nature/god) dictates our experiences to us, and then we decide (free-will?) but looking back in hindsight it all seems so planned, fuck this fatalism crap!!

Edited October 17, 2007 by El Duderino

[devance]

I don't believe its that grim El.

The free will and bad results can be believed to be because this is our planet.

So bad things happen.

God, if he exists apparently created the world and the universe.

So if he belives in absolute free will [must] have his created beings [family] to try to walk on their own two legs.

Also the world is a artistic creation.

So concerns about time travel in the past or future I would think is impossible.

But time rates in different spatial locals is a different story.

If such occurs would be a fixed phenonmenon

More convincing with TV [can rerun video tapes to someones satisfactory conclusion].

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I read the book Vornan-19. Actually it was a factory worker who won a lottery for a trip back to the future.

Not very charismatic either just seemed to spit on everything from a uninterested viewpoint.

Useful from a SCi Fi writer as he doesn't have come up with anything.

But if one wants to be charismatic a world figure one would have to work at it.

Politicals and a public image specialist to become a icon [money].

Don't thinks going to occurring or physics is going to be something to worry about.

Although staggering in implications as to particle physics as to macro[holistic]physics would have a communication purpose and not as disturbing as time travel.

[ThunderIdeal]

the flatland mentioned is a different book devance, written well over a century ago. by the way the first post was interesting but i really liked the explanation of going up one dimension as seeing all of the sides at once.

I haven't read flatlander but I assume it discusses the inability for a 2 dimensional 'flatlander' to see things of depth as everything is flat for this being. The only way the flat lander would see 3d reality is layer by layer of 2d space, slices of the 3d space.

first it talks about the 2d world and its inhabitants, their society. the main character, a square, is confronted with a sphere intruding layer by layer as you say. he perceives a circle as a line of points, starting distant then getting closer then distant again. the sphere looks like this at any given moment, but begins tiny, grows, then becomes tiny again. the sphere explains everything and knocks him into 3d, and here it also discusses the inability for a 3 dimensional being to see things in 4d. the square asks the sphere about which world lies next, and the sphere finds the concept outrageous and calls the square a moron.

a quick thing about mobious strips. They are a 2 dimensional surface curved over into three dimensions in such a way that it is only in fact one sided and has only one edge, look it up for images or just make one, its a trippy 'paradox' of reality that is actually tangible.

Anyhow, consider the flatlander travelling along said mobius strip, from its perspective it is constantly moving forward oblivious to the fact that its actual movement is curving through higher dimensions, as they are unperceptible to it, it can only see its 2d reality. The flatlander would have no idea how or why (unless its into philosophical speculation about higher dimensions...) but it might notice that everything looks strangely familiar as it does a full loop of the mobius strip returning back where it started, "the begining is the end is the begining is the end"

that's a cool concept, the cosmos as a moebius strip, no possible way of penetrating the other half of it's form, or it's alpha or omega, and so no way of fully and simultaneously beholding it from within!

I guess to have a full image of 4d reality we must be aware of every instance of time happening within this version of consensus reality. That is every manifested spatial configuration of anything that has been or will be (in this slice of reality) is simultaneously in existance and not as everything is temporal but in the timeless view it is there AND not.

yeah that's impossible in moebiverse.

[devance]

I think the holographic universes the way of it.

Physics and such can provide as explanation.

A morbious time loop doesn't explain why there is consciousnes, but destroys the argument for such as there is no memory.

A memory would have to be outside of a morbious loop.

[devance]

I think there is minute time experince between the two hemispheres of the brain.

So give raise to consciousnes.

My outlook its that the micotubles that are use in cells a cellular structure in nerve cells provide alot more.

So a theory of the physics of conscousness.

And a possibly intersting alternative on the evolutionary theory.

The more inorganic model of the maththematical modeling using morbious loop is not true or easy.

[devance]

From my viewpoint a either or choice is not the way to go.

But both are the two hands of existence.

A mathematical description is possible and is already done from a calculus type of math outlook.

Calculus is just a math device for connecting points using a infiniting dividing point to create interesting math model that describe.

On the other hand there or nondividing points as in the holographic model.

But just as valid.

But not as provable as yet from math.

Except from quantum physics.

[devance]

http://www.physorg.com/news114087870.html

'Do classical laws arise from quantum laws?

By Miranda Marquit

“The physics community is mostly divided into two groups,” Johannes Kofler tells PhysOrg.com. “One group believes that quantum theory is underlying the classical world, and that classical physics comes from the quantum. The other group thinks that quantum physics has to be altered. It forbids that quantum mechanics works on a macro level in the classical world by postulating additional laws.” '

A confusing article which is the reason I like visual modeling.

A visual model could be 6 points arranged in a planar form or a 3d form such as a polyhedron or a monotypic form such as points within points or viewed as 6 points behind each other in a linear fashion.

But as the points within points is unusually mind boggling to visualize I'm thinking it might be a possible 6d holographic model.

[devance]

As my last reply on the subject.

From 4d viewpoint being communicated by 6d angels the viewpoint isn't easy to communicate.

They don't fly but use a split second snapshot type of method.

I think because of the holographic way of it.

And it as there some sort of illusionary or communicative interchange.

Seagulls can be overlayed as angels flying or the moon can look like the smiling half moon.

But the attention is turned toward such instantly.

Pretty much what one would expect if the holographic model was the way of it.

How a mind to mind communication is possible is at the present time far beyond me.

Very nice and artistic when one thinks about.

Deamons one the other hand can also communicate and use illusion but unlike angels will apply force to the human body.

But a deamon is like a thug outside of a bar waiting to do a strong arm robbery to a helpless drunk, no profound morals issue apply there.

[Thelema]

Whilst on the subject of holography, did you know it is possible to squeeze all possible n-dimensional information holographically into an (n-1)-dimensional surface. Thus, possible by transitivity [(n-1) --> (n-2)] to completely holograhically map n --> (n-2).

So, a 4D universe or higher, could actually be mapped onto a 1-d space using holograhy. So maybe the universe is one dimensional! Surely this situation must break down when mapping into 0D, or maybe it doesn't. Maybe the universe is actually 0-D. I'm not even sure what that means.

And then there's the whole topic of continuous dimension...

[amnesiac]

Time is an illusion created by dividing up reality into snapshots across certain dimensions. for example we exist in a 4d world divided in to an infintum (I think thats the right word?) of 3d. If you could see all these snapshots at the same time you wouls see our universe as a 4d shape, but it would only be an instant, so in order be conciously aware of our universe at all in 4d you would have to stack a number of other similar 4d universes together together, also by this stage you would be a 5d being (4 spatial 1 time). Now if we continue in this progress time can only exist up to infinite-1 dimensions. A world made out of infinite dimensions would not exist with time, because to create time you need to break down a dimension and if you have this extra dimension you are not in infinite dimensions then. Simple right.