"Peregrina" #3 ....

[woof woof woof]

bummer,........ so close and yet so far away...... i am so close to Venezuela ....... approx 80 kilometers from it's shore, but getting there is still too expensive to just go there and have a look.....

heh,... also won a cruise vacation, but not thinking of going on it (still not sure what to do).... would have been a good opportunity to have a look voor the peregrina on the carib islands.....

at least i have another now to go on that cruise instead of reimbursing the tickets for $$$........

---------------

i remember reading that Peregringa had the super rough bumpy lumpy bark.......... and that colubrina had much smooterbark........ if that is the case,.. then i have Peregrina growing here. seed was from Maya...........

so i am very interested the know myself what i have growing here........

[mauve]

Hello Woof, yes i remember you are in the lesser Antilles. Don't rely on the bark texture for identification purpose, it has been observed on both species (i am rereading the book by Torres and Repke on the subject).

Here is an interesting excerpt:

"Reis Altschul distinguished these two species by means of a few consistents morphological characters and their correlation with particular geographical locations. The taxonomy was based partly on the presence or absence of a gland on each anther, and on the position of the involucre surrounding the peduncle. The two species can be identified most easily on the basis of the pod texture, since the flowers of different genera that compose the mimosoideae are so similar. A. peregrina has dull, scurfy to verrucose pods and it is the more northerly of the two species. A.Colubrina has nitid, smooth to reticulated pods, and it is limited to the southern hemisphere(Reis Altschul 1964)."

If you could have the chance to go to Venezuela...you could be my hero ...

[t st tantra]

even pics of perigrina are rare and maybe dubious......

ratsch and schultes both use a pic that looks similar to acacia aroma.......the pods look very different to those shown by trout.

trout uses pics of an oz tree.......but i cant tell anything from the pic,not even which tree he's refering too.......the pod is distintly different to colubrina v cebil......seeds all round not some squarish

http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online..._peregrina.shtl

t s t .

[Torsten]

mauve, thanks for that. other botanists have used the bark or even the wood colour for ID, but this often fails once you take different varieties into account.

[mauve]

here is the description of A.peregrina from the same book (wich i recommend by the way):

"Anadenanthera peregrina (L) Speg. (Reis Altschul 1964:45-46):

Shrub to tall tree, 3-27m high. Trunk 20_40 cm in diameter at breast height, usualy leaning, twisted, sometimes divided at the base into several shafts; more frequently the contorted, irregular branches spread out above the middle of a solitary trunk into an umbrella-like crown. Bark gray to nearly black with many small lenticels; unarmed or lower trunk producing conical thorns or wedge-shaped projections, sometimes intensely so when young, becoming tubercular-verrucose, corky, rugose and, in drier climates, very thick. Young twigs and foliage puberulent, occasionally glaucescent; mature foliage glabrous or nearly so. Leaves, including petioles, 12-30 cm long, the main rachis more or less channeled ventrally. Petioles somewhat darkened at their bases, 5-15 mm above with each bears a flattish, oval or oblong gland .5-5mm long; 1-4 similar, smaller glands borne one between or just below each of the ultimate pinna pairs. Pinna pairs 10-30 or more, each pinna 2-5 cm or more long, opposite or subopposite leaflets usually imbricate 25-80 pairs, 2-8 mm long, .5-1,5 mm wide, linear, oblong or lanceolate, straight to falcate, at the base oblique or truncate, at the apex acute to acuminate to apiculate; venation obscure except for a single, nearly straight, slightly excentric mid-vein; membranaceous to coriaceous and nitid, sometimes differing in color and texture dorsiventrally. Heads 10-18 mm in diameter, including stamens, greenish white to creamy yellow, in fascicles of 1-5, puberulous to glabrous in the bud; the heads axillary to the leaves and subterminal, rarely becoming arranged in racemose patterns in the branch apices. Peduncles 1.75-4 cm long, puberulous, filiform or thicker, each bearing about three-quarters of the way up the axis a puberulous bi-dentate, campanulate involucre wich become detached and slides down to encircle loosely the base of the peduncle. Calyx .5-2,6 mm long. Corolla 2-3.5 mm long stamens 5-8 mm long; anthers eglandular in the bud. Legume 5-35 cm long (including the stipe but not the peduncle), 1-3 cm wide, straight to falcate, oblongish to elongated, regularly to irregularly, vaguely or not at all contracted between the seeds, more or less flattened with margins slightly thickened; at the base attenuate to obtuse, at the apex mucronate to acuminate to cuspidate or, if the tip has broken off, rounded; surface scurfy to verrucose, and dull; dark brown with rufous scales in dried specimens. Seeds 8-16, very thin, flat, orbicular to suborbicular, dark chesnut brown to black, shiny, 10-20 mm in diameter.

Compared to A.Colubrina, A.peregrina has a wider north-south distribution and is found from 20 degrees N latitude to 26 degrees S latitude (Reis Altschul 1964). A.peregrina var. peregrina can be found in the Greater Antilles, most notably on the islands of Hispaniola and Puerto Rico. It is likely that humans are responsible for the introduction of Anadenanthera into the Greater Antilles (Reis Altschul 1964). The distribution of the tree in the Greater Antilles coincides with Taino occupation, early inhabitants of Hispaniola and Puerto Rico (see chapter 2). The snuff prepared from A.peregrina seeds was of great importance to Taino spirituality. A.peregrina var. peregrina is less frequently represented in the Lesser Antilles. These islands were occupied by Caribs, who arrived in the islands relatively late and are not known to have used Anadenanthera preparations. On the other hand, the tree is represented in Trinidad and Tobago, islands considered to be similar floristically to the adjacent South American mainland. In northern South America, var. peregrina is present in Colombia, Venezuela, British Guiana and Northern Brazil. This is the most widespread and north-ranging of the two varieties, occuring from 20 degrees N to 15 degrees S latitude (Reis Altschul 1964). A peregrina var. falcata is a much shorter tree than var. peregrina. The pod, usually falcate, is shorter and and narrower than in var.peregrina. It is found in the southern Brazilian states of Minas Gerais, Mato-Grosso, Parana, and Sao Paulo, and in Paraguay. This is the most southern-ranging variety of A.peregrina and is found from 15 degrees S latitude to approximately 26 degrees S latitude (Reis Altschul 1964).

Edited July 7, 2008 by mauve

[mauve]

i think there is a pdf file somewhere on the web but i recommend to buy the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Anadenanthera-Vision...a/dp/0789026414

[baphomet]

EDIT: had to pull some pics until I get permission to post them, sorry 'bout that, don't think they were peregrina anyway as the trunk was too thick according to Mauves book.

Edited July 6, 2008 by baphomet

[t st tantra]

there are 2 versions of embodens 'narcotic plants',one compares the appearance of perigrina with colubrina......i'll see if i can access it again.

t s t .

[mauve]

ok, i found the courage to type the A.colubrina description:

"Anadenanthera colubrina (Vell) Brennan (Reis Altschul 1964: 51-52):

Shrub to tall tree, 3-30 m high. Trunk 30-50 cm in diameter at breast height, commonly erect. Bark 2-5 cm thick, grayish, smooth or rugose, sometimes striated with small longitudinal fissures; unarmed or with mammillose protuberances. Young twigs and foliage partly puberulent, sometimes tomentellose, usually becoming glabrous with maturity. Leaves, including petioles 4-20 cm long, the main rachis channeled ventrally. Petioles scatteredly pubescent, at their bases horizontally wrinkled and each commonly bearing, somewhere below the first pinna pair, a flattened or erect, oval to disciform more or less centrally depressed gland 1-5 mm long; 1-3 (rarely to 7) similar, smaller glands borne one between or just below each of the ultimate pinna pairs. Pinna pairs 7-35 or more each pinna 1.2-7 cm long, usually opposite. Leaflets not always borne to the tip of the pinna, wich may end in a fine point 1.5-2 mm beyond the ultimate pair of leaflets. Leaflets imbricate or expanded, 20-80 pairs, .9-6 mm long, .5-1,5 mm wide, linear or slightly dilated in the middle, oblong to lanceolate, usually straight (not falcate), and the base oblique or truncate, at the apex acute to apiculate or obtuse; venation obscure, or with a straight or nearly straight, slightly excentric mid-vein, and more or less prominent secondary reticulated veins; membranaceous to coriaceous and nitidulous above, sometimes differing in color and texture dorsiventrally. Heads 15-20 mm in diameter, including stamens, white to whitish yellow to orangey, in fascicles of 1-7, minutely whitish-tomentose to nearly glabrous in the bud; the heads axillary to the leaves and subterminal, or becoming arranged in racemose-paniculate patterns in the branch apices with the leaves reduced or absent. Peduncles 2-4cm long, puberulous to glabrous, thicker than filiform, each bearing just below the receptacle and often hidden by the mature head a narrow, more or less glabrous annular involucre. Calyx .6-3 mm long. Corolla 2.5-4 mm long. Stammens 5-8 mm long; anthers each with a caducous gland. Legume 10-32 cm long (including the stipe but not the thickened peduncle), 1-3 cm wide, straight to sometimes falcate, oblongish to very elongated, regularly contracted to sinuate, or irregularly contracted where seeds have aborted, sometimes very flattened and thin, with margins often strongly thickened, even though sometimes narrow; at the base attenuate to obtuse or truncate, at the apex mucronate to acuminate to cuspidate or, if the tip has broken off, rounded; surface smooth to reticulated, and nitid; light, dark or reddish brown or dark gray in dried specimens. Seeds 8-16, thin, flat, orbicular to oblong, dark chestnut brown, very shiny, 12-20 mm in diameter."

[mauve]

I found some pictures of a tree that is cultivated in Florida. The poster of those pics told me that it came from Puerto Rico and it was labelled as A.peregrina.

When looked at the flowers i could find the detail that can help us to identify Peregrina from Colubrina according to Reis Altschul:

Peduncles 1.75-4 cm long, puberulous, filiform or thicker, each bearing about three-quarters of the way up the axis a

puberulous bi-dentate, campanulate involucre wich become detached and slides down to encircle loosely the base of the peduncle.

Peregrina flowers with the famous bi-dentate involucres:

From this page: http://flickr.com/photos/bigleaftropicals/2316160331/

and now compare with Colubrina flowers (posted on SAB by Planthelper), notice the absence of involucres:

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...ost&id=3219

Edited July 8, 2008 by mauve

[planthelper]

nitid

adj 1: bright with a steady but subdued shining; "from the plane

we saw the city below agleam with lights"; "the gleaming

brass on the altar"; "Nereids beneath the nitid moon"

[syn: agleam, gleaming, nitid]

ver·ru·cose (v-rks) also ver·ru·cous (-ks)

adj.

Covered with warts or wartlike projections.

involucres: Science: botany) a group of bracts enveloping a condensed inflorescence, a layer of tissue enveloping some plant parts.

peduncle: a stalk supporting an inflorescence

mauve can you please confirm if my "laymans terminology" translation is correct....

peregrinas:

the seeds pods of peregrina are dull in appareance, and covered with some sort of (wartlike) projections.

colubrina:

the seedpods of colubrina are a bit shiny, and have a smooth surface.

late edit, false interpretation removed

Edited July 8, 2008 by planthelper

[mauve]

Planthelper, i can't confirm your terminology as i am myself an amateur in the botanical terminology.

As for the flowers position on the branches i know nothing and i can't make definite observations based on the two pictures.

What i wanted to highlight is the involucres: look closely at the peduncles of on the Peregrina picture,

you will notice little collars looking a little bit like sharp teeths. On the Colubrina picture if you look at the peduncles there is nothing at all, the surface is totally smooth. This a very easy way to differency the two species, the only drawback is that you have to wait for your trees to flower to identify them !

Now, if someone have a pic of the supposed Peregrina tree in Australia (the "Recher" tree ?) it would be easy to solve the mystery.

[planthelper]

penducles: The stalk of an inflorescence or a stalk bearing a solitary flower in a one-flowered inflorescence.

thx for that, for no fuzz quick understanding i highlighted those two sharp teeth on the photo showing the peregrina, and reposted it...

i checked m. caapi and tripitakas photos aswell, and yes no teeth on the flower stalk!

Edited July 8, 2008 by planthelper

[mauve]

yes, it is what we are talking about, thanks for that

[t st tantra]

[peregrina...foreign ]

[falcata ...sickle shaped.]

wonder if the point of differentiation above is true across all the varieties?

ph,your pic is colubrina v cebil?

tripitakas and caapis photos were c v cebil too?

very pleased this subject after many years seems to be getting somewhere!thanx all!

t s t .

Edited July 8, 2008 by t st tantra

[planthelper]

t st, i can't remeber where i got the seeds from, but it could have been from tort, or given to me at a meeting from somebody else.

rechers plants have flowered, as has been reported here, so it's only a matter of time till we know, but sure tantra maybe some other variantes have those sickles aswell. in this buiseness one can never be too sure.

btw, striking cuttings of this plant i have failed, but were there is a will there is a way.

Edited July 9, 2008 by planthelper

[Torsten]

Awesome! Thanks Mauve. I've been after this info for years. I have both A.colubrina var colubrina and var cebil and will check that both peduncles are free of involucres when they flower next. That would then mean any plant with involucres is peregrina.

This is very very cool.

[t st tantra]

thats assuming both peregrinas have involucres?

t s t .

[mauve]

Torsten: you're welcome ! I am happy to contribute to our shared knowledge about this wonderful plant.

Now we have three features to look at when identifying those trees: the pod texture, the involucre and then there is the glands located on each anther in Colubrina...but i don't know how it looks exactly. A very big and good quality close-up of a Colubrina flower would help.

Edited July 11, 2008 by mauve

[woof woof woof]

same here..... Tort....I will also let the board know what i got growing here from seeds obtained through Maurice.

[t st tantra]

sorry i dont know how to download pics yet........

these pics of a plant from the dominican republic look interesting in terms of this thread.....

link 1 close pod link2 wider view link 3 flower

http://www.plantsystematics.org/imgs/kcn2/...ra_sp_1404.html

http://www.plantsystematics.org/imgs/kcn2/...ra_sp_1405.html

http://www.plantsystematics.org/imgs/kcn2/...ra_sp_1406.html

the flowers dont seem to be anaden at all but the pods seem curved ,not smooth and with those white spots?

the flowers reminded me of t's mimosa h but i thought they were too big?

t s t .

Edited July 19, 2008 by t st tantra

[Tripitaka]

Great pics Mauve

I have high res images of my var. cebil in here somewhere. I will see if I can find them.

I recall that the problem with the "Recher" A. peregrina is that it is to far South to ever flower??

I have two very healthy specimens grown from Telemetric's supposed A. peregrina, both will remain in pots until we can find some permenant land to plant it out in tropical QLD. More than happy to donate both of them for this purpose when the time comes.

[Tripitaka]

A. colubrina var. cebil

Dont know if it will be of help though??

[t st tantra]

been doing a small survey of cebil flowers.........seeing the small bit on the involucre on some flowers.......less than 5% on some plants,none on others,sometimes right at the top not the usual 1/3 down.

the sth am acacia also sometimes has them....10 to 20%......two on some flowers.

t s t .

Edited November 4, 2008 by t st tantra

[mauve]

Thanks for the report, Tantra. This is very interesting ! I think we jumped too quickly on the conclusion that A. Colubrina has no involucres; in fact it has involucres !

Let's look again at the botanical description (from Reis Altschul) of A.Colubrina:

"Peduncles 2-4cm long, puberulous to glabrous, thicker than filiform, each bearing just below the receptacle and often hidden by the mature head a narrow, more or less glabrous annular involucre."

...and A. Peregrina:

"Peduncles 1.75-4 cm long, puberulous, filiform or thicker, each bearing about three-quarters of the way up the axis a puberulous bi-dentate, campanulate involucre wich become detached and slides down to encircle loosely the base of the peduncle."

So, the difference could be the form of the involucre rather than the presence or absence of it. Tantra, are the involucres on your tree annular ?

Unfortunately, in the description of Colubrina it doesn't say if the involucre is sliding or not.

On a side note...i'm going to receive, after a lonnng hunt, seeds of Anadenanthera Peregrina from Puerto Rico !

Edited November 4, 2008 by mauve