Walking to the shops ‘damages planet more than going by car’

[nabraxas]

come on now, everybody sing along w/me:

"I've been around the world & seen

that only stupid people are breeding..."

[Osprey]

My wife and I have two kids.I love them very dearly and can't even imagine a world without them in it.

Breeding is part of the natural order of things.

Definatly not mandatory however

Two people having 2 kids is zero population growth.

It's really magic.

I come from a long line of uneducated drunkards and lunatics.

maybe bad genetics.

But exactly who is fit to judge the difference between bad and good genetics?

the breeding police, if they existed would never have let my parents breed(with good reason)

But I sure am glad I'm alive.

I'm all for limiting population growth through education and such,but NO ONE has the right to force it on anyone(in my humble opinion)

Edited August 25, 2007 by Osprey

[Torsten]

My wife and I have two kids.I love them very dearly and can't even imagine a world without them in it.

No disputing that. I would probably feel the same way if I had kids.

Breeding is part of the natural order of things.

So is starving to death if you have a disability, gettign eaten if you are too slow, or freezing to death if you are dumb, and starving if you overpopulate. As humans we do many things that are not part of the natural cycle because we have the ability of some foresight and some self control.

Two people having 2 kids is zero population growth.

Yes, and if we had a sustainable number of people on this planet then this would be the perfect way to go.

You highly evolved deep thinkers don't know what you're missing

I know exactly what I am missing. It took me 20 years to get [partially] over it. Just because I don't have kids doesn't mean I don't want them. I just don't think it is right [neither for the kids nor for the planet] and that's why I don't.

I'm all for limiting population growth through education and such,but NO ONE has the right to force it on anyone(in my humble opinion)

The USA and australia feel that carbon emissions can be reduced by voluntary reductions. So some ethical companies are busting their asses to meet almost meaningless targets while other companies ignore any ethics and double their profits in the process. The rest of the world thinks this is disgusting because essentially what little good is achieved is instantly being negated by those who are selfish, greedy or ignorant.

The population issue is the same. Those who are ethical about this planet and humanity will voluntarily reduce numbers while those who are greedy [such as religions and patriotic regimes], or uneducated [such as many african and asian nations] will undo any good that has been done. If each one of us has an equal right to resources then this also applies to our kids. So someone who has 10 kids steals the resources of someone who has 1 kid.

I too don't believe that you can prohibit multiple kids, but to be fair in the distribution of resources we need to level the playing field somehow. Kids cost resources, so why not tax families for any kid in excess of 2? That would favour the rich people though and hence is unethical too.

I don't have the answers, but fact is we can't keep going this way. The more educated sometimes understand this problem, but the majority is lagging behind. Simple biology will teach you that when populations get too large they die out. Those who blindly contribute to that fate should not do so at the expense of those who apply their evolutionary gift of foresight. In the future we will undoubtedly see some countries enforcing zero population growth and we will probably also see wars being fought over maintaining their border integrity.

[chilli]

Two people having 2 kids is zero population growth.

Only if you plan on dying before they have their own kids... if your kids do the same and their kids also, then you and your wife have multiplied by three by the time you are a grandfather and seven by the time you are a great-grandfather. It's very basic maths, no need for any deep thinking. Besides, I was spawned by an alcoholic and a criminal who had six kids and ditched the last three on me when it got too hard. I dropped out of school when I was 14 and have never completed any further education, all of which I say in order to point out that the reverse snobbery may be misplaced.

I also sometimes feel the urge to have children, especially when I am with my nephews and nieces, but we have chosen to sacrifice that particular pleasure because of environmental and social concerns... it is not some cold cerebral decision, but a deeply felt matter of being responsible for what we know. I don't think you should feel guilty if you have children, but I also don't think you should write off arguments against procreation just because you do.

This kind of sounds nasty I guess but it wasn't meant to, I am just getting on my high horse

Edited August 25, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[Torsten]

I am trying to get the two kids thing straight in my head and having problems. Illegal, you make an interesting point, but after thinking about it some more I think you are wrong. Maybe it's just too late for me to comprehend this though.

I don't think kids replace their parents, but instead they replace their great grandparents. So, when great grandparent are near death, you have 3 generations alive [greatgrandparents, grandparents, and parents]. As the greatgrandparents pop off they are replaced by the 2 kids and the cycle starts again. So there is no population growth.

Also, in my analysis about educated and uneducated I was referrign to the absolute basics, not the difference between the people on this forum. I was referrign to how easy it is for a religion with alterior motives [membership] to use the total lack of education in african and parts or south america and asia to essentially force people to have more kids by ways of spiritual blackmail. eg, if you don't know the basics in weather science for example it is easy to manipulate simple peasants into believeing you have some control over th weather by means of spiritual power. You get the idea?

[Jesus On Peyote]

Australia doesent really have a big population problem so thats a good thing, torsten, if you want kids you should have em, the planet isent going to think any different of you. i see it as a region based thing,oz can probably handle a few more million.

I agree with you also about religion being used as a weapon by churches.you can see that in asia, S america and the middle east (islam especially does alot to promote breeding). but yea... this may sound "inhumane" but how many people would support chemical weapons or a man made virus OR a cut of aid to parts of the world that "need" food but cant naturally get it themselfs to let nature do its thing?

[nabraxas]

Australia doesent really have a big population problem

.....nothing could be further from the truth.

The Optimum Population Trust, determined that at the current standard of living (as determined by the WWF's Living Planet Report 2002), the optimum population for Australia is 10 million (rather than our present 20.4 million) and at a lower standard of living, it is 21 million.

http://www.population.org.au/affluence/populationsize.htm

& that figure was reached before the drought which made the driest inhabited continent even less able to support a large & wasteful consumer society.

[chilli]

Torsten, I can't figure out the maths stuff at the moment either, but just letting you know my comments about education were directed to Osprey.

Osprey, again I guess I sounded narky but it was late and I was feeling ranty... no offense intended!

[Osprey]

I understand and respect you guys opinion.I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Life goes by so fast.

a persons lifetime is kind of like walking on a deserted beach.

All you really leave behind(in this life) is you're footsteps

I want to try walk this life in the right way.

I'm getting way out there...

better go have some dinner

[Torsten]

All you really leave behind(in this life) is you're footsteps

I want to try walk this life in the right way.

Problem is that even the most consciencious western individual will still leave behind a fuckload more than just footprints in the sand. Like thousands of tons of CO2, tons of rubbish and toxic waste, consumed forests and wetlands, etc.

I figure by not having a child I save all of his/her waste and that of future generations. And if that helps my nephews a little bit then I that's good enough for me.

JoP, get some information before you make such silly statements please. How can our population be sustainable if we can't even draw 10% of our energy needs from sustainable sources? How can it be sustainable if we have 50% of the world endangered animals [more than 35% in NSW & Qld alone]? How can you say growth is sustainable if the status quo isn't even sustainable? Sheesh, you didn't think that one through too hard eh?

Sustainability may change with new technologies, but you can't always borrow from the future and hope that new tech will save your past mistakes. I think population should be halted right here, right now and not be allowed to grow again until we have put sustainable mechanisms in place.

[Osprey]

Problem is that even the most consciencious western individual will still leave behind a fuckload more than just footprints in the sand. Like thousands of tons of CO2, tons of rubbish and toxic waste, consumed forests and wetlands, etc. .

Good point.

You hear so many people being described as 'humanitarians',and doing so much for humanity.

Once you accept that the earth is a closed system with limited resources.

You see thet we need as many people as possible working on behalf of all the other living organisims on this planet.

[nabraxas]

[Jesus On Peyote]

Sorry for not looking up all the details...altho i see where you are all comming from,you are all Environ-mental Extremists. (most of you). if you all think overpopulation is a problem why dont you all shoot yourselfs? (serious question) all this super enviro talk sickens me,the planet doesent need hippies in hemp cloths to come save it its a BIG BOY so go do what humans do and go breed.. or go join peta

[Jesus On Peyote]

That said, i reacon we nuke asia.. and the mid east, there that will fix the population "problem" and all the pollution that comes from those places. simple

[nabraxas]

you are all Environ-mental Extremists

i reacon we nuke asia.. and the mid east, there that will fix the population "problem" and all the pollution that comes from those places.

there still wouldn't be enough water in Victoria for the population as it is, let alone if it keeps increasing.

i guess you're one ov those people who continues to hose down their yards, water the lawn & hose the car down every day because "the earth is a big boy it can take care ov itself"

[Ace]

Some slightly nieve statements there JoP...

I'll leave that first one about the earth being a big boy alone for the others to respond to, but as for nuking asia/middle east - what would you say if the US or China or Afghanistan or Greece were to say that in the next 6 hours, all of eastern Australia will be nuked to cut down on population growth? You would shit yourself, as would anyone in asia or the middle east. The person that gives the go-ahead would become one of (if not, THE) biggest fuckwit of all time, looked back upon with utter hatred and disgust (as is Hitler and all of the worlds mass-murderers).

The fact is that no one has the right to take anothers life. Let alone hundreds or thousands. I personally love Torsten's POV about not having kids. That said, I already have one kid, and my partner is very keen to have another. I am torn between having another one or sticking with what we have and making the most of it. I certainly wont be having more than 2 - and the thought of having some 5-10 kids running around sickens me because of the damage that I will be causing the planet.

The planet can look after itself. After some hundred thousand years, the planet will regain balance and may again provide a perfect home for many species. Humans cant look after themselves. Even with all our vast knowledge, we are still raping the worlds resources, polluting it, overharvesting, overpopulating and just generally fucking our home up. Sooner or later, the over population will lead to our species demise because there will be nothing left to eat, to use for shelter, to avoid disease,etc.

Your knowledge on this matter is clearly very limited, as was mine before I became a member here (I have learnt some pretty valuable things, even if others look at them with a bit of unease). I urge you to research and open your mind to the fact that we (as a species) will eventually fuck everything up for not only ourselves, but all other species on the planet. Please dont just assume that we are hippies and that we need to stop smoking pot or something like that - there is literally tons of scientific research on these subjects - do some reading and then comment with your opinions and you will find that things are a lot worse than they appear. Keeping population numbers down WILL help. But that said, it is only a tiny part of a huge problem.

To say that things will be fine and dandy and that we can keep on having as many kids as we want, having the greenest, lushest lawns, having big 4WDs, eating out of styrofoam packaging, throwing plastic and processed metals into the environment and expecting that things will be fine is blatantly ignorant and just a tad idiotic. I personally dont care if every other person on the planet was to keep fucking it up (though I certainly dont enjoy the idea) - I will sleep easy at night knowing that I am doing my bit by keeping family numbers down, recycling, taking the environmental option and avoiding unneccessary harm to our planet.

Remember, you cant change other people, but you can change yourself.

[nothinghead]

JoP you are a total sensationalist, statements like "let's bomb asia, that'll solve it" and "if you care about overpopulation kill yourself" - are these supposed to be intelligent contributions??? And you are calling anyone who wants to discuss birth rates (without persecuting only other nations/religions over them) extremist? Talk about the pot calling kettle black!

[Jesus On Peyote]

no,i agree they where over stated and i was trying to make a point,possablu not the best way.. anyway,torsten is not willing to have a kid for the sole reason of overpopulation, i believe that is stupid, one of the reasons of making the world a better place is so your children and grandchildren can grow up in a better place, if your not having kids whats the point. Unless you just dont want to have kids and you use OP as an excuse.I dont think any more then 3 kids is needed i agree with that.but the thing is when you have fucking (exuse the racisim) arabs moving to countries to breed +6 kids because their muslim leaders tell em to is retarded n wrong.we can cut our population to 0 growth but that doesent mean others will, what are we going to do about them? what can we do about them?

and also victorias water levels aint so bad..the drought wont last forever. unless it does

[Ace]

Sorry JoP - I picked up on your sarcasm and attempt at making a point after I posted

You have a good point - why bother making a good future if your kids cant appreciate it (by not existing). Well, I guess IMO, I want to provide a good future for other kids, if not my own (as I'm sure Torsten is getting at). To say that there is no point is selfish - its like saying why bother putting a plastic bottle in the recycling when there is a lake full down the road. It all comes down to doing what YOU can. Like I said - you cant change others or the way they think/act, but you can change yourself. And that is exactly the way I live and everyone should (though, of course there will be plenty of imbred hicks overbreeding and whatnot, but at least their 'contributions' wont do half as much damage).

Your point about arabs immigrating and overpopulating other countries (whilst grossly racist) is valid - but certainly is not limited to one culture/religion/etc. This happens all over the world (including aussies breeding overseas, no doubt). To be perfectly honest, I dont think the overpopulation 'debate' (if you will) is known much around the world. And that is where the problem lies IMO. No different to global warming two or three decades ago. With time, the info spreads and is looked at thoroughly and I think over population needs to be looked at much more so in the public eye (hell, I didnt even think about that sort of thing before coming here and I dont know of anyone who has ever said I'm not having kids because I would prefer your kids to enjoy a cleaner and more resourceful future - that is truly giving, if nothing else). By limiting your offspring, you can allow some others to have larger families (though this should be cut down as much as possible).

As for 'what can we do about them (referring to overbreeding societies)?', well I can only say clean up our backyard and hope to set an example, but if nothing else at least just do our bit so that other's devistating effects are minimised.

And your comment about the drought - we live in one of the driest (if not, the) continents on earth. Whilst the drought always breaks (if history repeats for eternity), the gaps between the wet can and are lengthened by human activity. If we sit there and piss it up the wall, of course it will come back to bite us in the arse (or future generations). The planet has always had a very balanced ecosystem, up until recently. That is because of the advancement of our species.

Think about it in terms of an ants nest in a park. A couple ants come in and start breeding to form a colony and progress their species (the most basic instinct). They in turn use the resources around them and as the colony grows, so does the need for resources. Now, with a smaller colony, the park should be able to provide more than enough for them, via plants, other species, etc. But when the colony increases above what is considered optimal (optimal, being the biggest that the local environment can support), they have to look for other resources as their immediate ones dwindle.

The human race is well past this point and unless populations decrease, or resources increase (not likely as we are in a closed ecosystem - unless we harvest other planets for their resources), we will soon start dying out (this may take 10 years, or maybe 10,000, all depending on how we react to this situation).

Now you may look at this as a bit overboard - but have a serious think about it - where would you say we are at? Dont forget that we have had to trade with other continents and even move away due to lack of resources over the last 1000 years. We have also hit a whole new era 'the computer' or 'information age', which has completely advanced our species (and increased demands on resources). Lets not forget the last big shift in eras - 'the industrial age'. The effects from this have only just began taking a toll - global warming, pollution, severe lack of resources, etc.

Is it all just a bunch of hippie crap that should be ignored, or is it time to listen and step up and do your bit? I know where I stand on the arguement and anyone who disagrees really needs to do a bit of research. Over population is a HUGE problem, but it isnt the only one. But oddly enough, it is something that EVERYONE can do something about (unlike some of the problems caused by huge companies). Tie your dick in a knot - you can still shag till your heart's content

Reproduction is a natural thing, yes. But overpopulation is also natural, and there is only one ending to that. Complete (or at least severe) annhialation of species (which may well include other species). Do you want that resting on your shoulders, or your best mates?

Holy dooley - that high horse has gotten the best of me. I'd better stop floggin it before it dies on me!

[Torsten]

That said, i reacon we nuke asia.. and the mid east, there that will fix the population "problem" and all the pollution that comes from those places. simple

Your arguemnts never stand up to even superficial scrutiny. Most of the pollution comes from the US and other highly developed countries, so if we bomb anyone we would need to bomb them. Even if developing countries were in fact the major polluters, why do you think they are? Where does the majority of India's and China's industrial output go? To the west, ie to you and me and all the other frivolous consumers. So not only are we the major polluters ourselves, we also encourage and enable other countries to pollute for us so that we can maintain our lifestyles.

The nuking suggestion seemed a childish statement and I was going to overlook the offensive racism in it, but as this is not the first time and as you have just done it again with your arab comment, you've just earned yourself another warning.

btw, stupidity and racism are not good traits to breed for, so best if you keep it in your pants.

[Torsten]

ace, if I didn't have any youngsters in my immediate vicinty who I cared for [eg nephews, adopted kids, foster kids or even just friend's kids], I might find it a lot harder not to have kids. Any argument about genetics is taken care of by my nephews, so this has taken a huge emotional and instictive pressure off me. If I do get clucky I am sure I can channel that to a useful aim as well without needing to have kids of my own. I am not saying that I am happier without kids - far from it, but happiness is often a very selfish motivator and in the long run I think I will derive more happiness out of having done the right thing.

So, using my extended family I can make use of most of the instinctive drives that cause others to have kids without having to contribute to the problem. ie, by not having kids I make sure that my branch of the family not only has zero population growth, but has negative growth. ie, my sisters two kids would have been zero growth for them, but would be -1 if you combine them with my non-existant offspring. So, I know this generation of my family has done the right thing, has passed on the genes, and looks like to have resulted in some decent humans who will themselves be part of the solution rather than increasing the problem.

On an emotional level things would be very different for me if it wasn't for my nephews though and I can see where others might run into real dilemmas. But even if people can't help themselves and have to breed because of emotional pressures, it is important for them to still recognise that population growth is a bad thing. See, until we recognise this we can't hope to actually do anything about it. Our leaders are more concerned with the viability of pension funds and the young population needed for that and have no long term outlook. At least not until thigns are too late and drastic action will be needed. It will be up to individuals to make their decisions till then.

[Ace]

I really applaud your efforts in this matter Torsten (I feel this topic is something very valuable that has literally changed my life since joining here, and I'm very grateful and thankful for that). I understand it would be difficult for a lot of people (you and I included). I have never thought of myself as a parent figure - in fact far from it. But when the news came I was delighted (as anyone would be). After reading and learning about the overpopulation issue I have decided to stop now (or if things do end up happening and we have a second, then that will be the absolute last).

There is absolutely no need for people to continually breed (like some guy I recently heard about in the middle east or something where he had hoped for 100 wives and managed to spawn some ridiculous number of kids), and to sit there and think that it is helping the world or at least continuing your family on is just absurd - we all come from one or two ancestoral lineages and all have more or less the same genetics. So to use that as a reason to multiply is also absurd.

I reproduced because of an extreme closeness with my partner and her desire for a family (i would have been more than happy to live vicariously through other family members or friends, but a lot of people need their own things, as was this case). So we started one and we now have one. We have more than enough to fulfil our lives, we have someone to look after and raise intellegently (by educating them on all the stuff that they arent told about in school or by the media, such as this topic) and hope that they are intellegent enough to help save the world (as hippy and over-used as that sounds, I believe it still holds a little value). As is your situation Torst (by the sounds of it). You are able to live my reality via your family and friends and still have the benefits of a family life and positive effects on the community. You also get the added benefit of a closer family relationship with your siblings/niece/nephews/etc. Of course this could prove to be a emotionally difficult (some people love kids and cant have them, others just dont see kids as a big part of their lives), and this is one of the reasons why I really applaud you, Torsten

You have a very valid point about emotional pressure - that was a part of our situation. But that said, our education (including this forum) has helped show that we have no need for an increase in numbers. Via education, this situation can be reduced and even put into a slight decline (which would be ideal, but not very likely).

Remember the government's old motto - 'Have one for the country'? Not only is that proving to be grossly negative, but it was actually encouraged to build numbers during and after the wars. Hmm - fair enough, we want our country protected, but see the devestating effects that a fairly minor decision can have later down the track? And that was less than a century ago!

Education will be the key - I dont know why this topic isnt more discussed, as it is CLEARLY a big part of many current and future problems. As uncomfortable a topic as it can be at times, it is one that really needs to be discussed and thought about. Everyone can still have a kid or two, but really, the less the better. Any more and they are only causing problems (as sad as that sounds).

[Osprey]

Adoption of a child that needs a home, can be a very rewarding thing.

Fostering an older child from a problem background,or one with disabilities is a really brave and enlightened thing to do.

You don't have to breed your own children.

there are so many who desperatly need parents and role models

[Ace]

Exactly. A very good point Osprey. Though a lot of people still have some issues with that sort of lifestyle - it can be very difficult to become a fosterparent or to adopt, it can also be quite a big decision to take another families child as your own (and a lot of very disturbed individuals have come from adopted/fostered families - but more likely from their background before the new family). Personally, I find the thought of raising my own kids is hard enough to take on someone elses (though even I can see how close minded this POV sounds - if I didnt have kids yet, it would certainly become something to think seriously about).

Even still, if someone wants to raise a family but is quite against procreation, then it is always a fantastic option (as well as increasing family numbers for those already established). Another 2 for 1 deal - helping a child out of what may be a difficult situation, as well as creating/increasing a family for yourself and your partner.

[Jesus On Peyote]

Iv never argued a warning

Ace, one thing i get from reading your posts is how kind of guilty you feel about having your child. i think thats very wrong, or at least i cant understand why you would.

i admit i havent read too much on the subject, so if mass murder is out kidding then whats the solution? if the world is already over populated weld need to go backwards and hardly any countries are even at 0 growth. and even then, what is the best population rate? and who decides and on what basis.?