T.Bridgesii and it's reputed lingering after effects.

[t st tantra]

Foaf told me that approx 450mg pure mescaline was approx equivalent in duration and intensity of experience to approx 450mg of standardised water extract. The only things that were different was the mescaline made him feel sicker (though he dosed the cactus over time and the mescaline all at once), he was able to throw up on cactus which is a good thing he feels, and the cactus had a significantly greater body load which lasted into the next day. Both experiences had the same themes and both were a bit sinister/dark at times, somthing he had hoped would not be present with the cactus. Overall he probably prefered the cactus but will definetly be using the mescaline again in higher doses.

Foaf has also run TLC on a/b extracts and found mescaline to be the only alkaloid present.

sorry teo, the way i read it the mescaline exp described as a bit dark and sinister at times is classic bridgesii exp, i dont think pedro or pure mescaline are like this.this is for me a main point of focus and seems to be why people talk about tryptamines in bridgesii.so i doubt the purity of the sample, though there may well have been no other alkaloids present.

mainly came to post in this thread because i've had a good communication with one of the people with these lingering after effects.i've asked him to post but i dont think he will.

the effects still linger after 6 weeks plus, he has strong adverse reactions to coffee,and feels eliminating tyramine from his diet has been key to improving his situation.so he feels mao inhibition is whats going on . but its a bit much for him and he would like it to be over.but he is unable to turn it off.a small dose of maoi to rejig the system is being considered.

t s t .

[teonanacatl]

sorry teo, the way i read it the mescaline exp described as a bit dark and sinister at times is classic bridgesii exp, i dont think pedro or pure mescaline are like this.this is for me a main point of focus and seems to be why people talk about tryptamines in bridgesii.so i doubt the purity of the sample, though there may well have been no other alkaloids present.

I can assure you the purity of the sample was high, clean white crystals with one dot by TLC, had been recrystallised a few times.

Foaf experienced no lingering effects after the next day. There could be somthing else present I guess somone will just have to test and see.

[cannaboiler]

I'm curious about the MAOI aspect of Bridgesii ( especially seeing one is on it's way here now) Would a tea/Stew with Psyhcotria Viridis Leaves(strained) be a Silly idea to dismiss outright, or could it be worth trying out @ some point. Maybe someone here has tried this synergy ?

As i said something i just curious about, Because im a Newb in entheobotany, With a hell of a lot to learn about my greatest passion.

[tonic]

EDIT: Don't mind me

Edited September 8, 2008 by Phos D

[sharxx101]

Interesting stuff to know. I never knew that the bridgesii has a MAOI in it. That would explain the extra duration of its effects as the MAOI will make certain chemicals stay in the system for longer. I didnt think it would last over 3 weeks that seems a bit too much of a good thing . What are the after effects like?

What is meant by the comment "its dark and sinister at times being the classic bridgesii exp?" Was it too intense to handle? What was dark and sinister about it? Curious to know

[t st tantra]

there is another thread trying to expain the 'dark sinister' thing.

because bridgesii seems about 3x stronger than pedro,similar to maoi potentiation,it seems maoi could be the the reason.

but there are a few compounds which could cause maoi........

kaempferol and quercetin

hordenine ,which has not been found in bridgesii.....

maybe some tetrahydroisoquinoline

back to the early posts about fresh cactii from bd..........

this was apparently very fresh,a cut taken, trimmed ,straight into the mouth!......

how often has a cactii been cut then consumed less than an hour or 2 later?

i've seen a fresh cut,core greenish.......2 hours later,core white!

t s t .

[Teotzlcoatl]

mainly came to post in this thread because i've had a good communication with one of the people with these lingering after effects.i've asked him to post but i dont think he will.

the effects still linger after 6 weeks plus, he has strong adverse reactions to coffee,and feels eliminating tyramine from his diet has been key to improving his situation.so he feels mao inhibition is whats going on . but its a bit much for him and he would like it to be over.but he is unable to turn it off.a small dose of maoi to rejig the system is being considered.

Tell us about these "lingering effects"...

I honestly think your friend is experienceing a form of anxiety attacks. Happened to me one time when I ate too many Panaeolus subbalteatus mushrooms... I had "lingering effects" for a couple of months... they were very real, but they were NOT chemically induced by the botanical.

As far as cactus being "toxic" or "poisonous" I think that's a horrible way to put... I suppose everything is "toxic"....

In Lophophora's 7000+ years of usage... I've never heard of one single recored death, nor have I heard any from mushrooms or Ayahuasca.

Edited September 9, 2008 by Teotz'

[t st tantra]

my friend saw a medical expert who expressed the opinion he had experience a hypotensive crisis.

the problem still exists at chronic level.

t s t .

[Teotzlcoatl]

Ah, I see. Ok then, not anxiety attacks.

Are you sure it was a hypertensive crisis induced by the prensence of tyramine in his diet while under influence of this unknown bridgesii MAOI? (Or perhaps I don't really understand the whole MAOI thing as well as I think I do)

Could you tell us anymore about the problem?

And perhaps the chemical that you believe may have caused this?

Brigdesii experiences ARE different than other types of Trichocereus... but I really doubt they contain a long acting MAOI powerful enough to cause any types of problems... this is interesting... and a little unsettling tho.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Teotz'

[mutant]

Interesting thread... [edited some hours later, to re-phrase some things, my original post was a bit hasty]

I am more inclined to agree with those who put set, setting, dose and other aspects like the personal reaction and/or abuse of such psychedelics in the past as main propable factors for such reactions ~

***

... yet there seems that T.bridgesii has a marked {?} difference, something which remains unsolved , or at least only speculations about it exist, if I understand right - or is Smith's claim about kaempferol and quercetin acting as MAOIs more than just mere hypothesis?

[edit] here I might be wrong, because I considered T.bridgesii difference as a fact, but then again I am not sure if everyonbe agrees that T.bridgesii is different in a way other than more potent... or more fixed in its potency...

*****

On another note, are there reports of people who experienced a more severe form of poisoning than the 'usual' one, after a bridgesii experience, maybe due to food which 'disagreed' with the MAOI in there or something? Could any other sicknesses and body implications described by people who have ingested some trich be caused by MAOIs in certain Trichocereus strains?

**********

Well to my sub-point. I actually had never a Trichocereus/Lophophora experience to start with, but still, has anyone heard of disorders caused/catalysed by drugs [pretty often of the classic psychedelics type] ? I am referring to HPPD , drug-induced DP/DR etc etc...

From a short research I made last year in support sites such as 'hppd-online' I came to the conclusion that such incidents are caused mostly by abusive young people eating more than what the mind and/or body could handle or [quite rare I would say] some people with unusual sensitivity [predisposition maybe], maybe also combined with wrong preparation & attitude, also in many cases by initially ignoring the alarming symptoms and continuing use causing a crisis.

****************

t st tantra>> did this individual experience lingering visual aspects or just mental? Please elaborate a bit, why you feel T.bridgesii has a certain 'dark space' ~ to make matters even more complicated, is this true with all bridgesii strains?? Please do give link for this quote of yours

there is another thread trying to expain the 'dark sinister' thing.

[edit] or did I get this wrong, and the problematic after effect are more bodily than mental [hypertension, as you said], and so that might raise the question about the bridgesii coctail of other unstudied/not isolated substances?

Here I would like to add, that I have been interested in such 'problems' psychedelic use might cause, and I would be grateful if some older member could post some links of previous similar threads in here... I have noted that even people with serious understanding of psychedelics and quite sensible approach seem to dismiss/degrade such problems, maybe afraid of 'negative publicity' or something. Arguements I have read about this range from 'hppd is a gift' to 'even bad trips are rewarding, it's part of the 'meta-programming' ' etc. ~ I sense that the attitude of Corroboree is slightly different and more sensitive in these realms, and I would gladly read opinions of all the sensible members here, maybe in another thread .... [any link?]

I do remember that this particular report refers to an individual who wasn't in the best time of his life [that's a bad set to start with], but what was his expectations of the experience? What is the persons past life like, any other problems/indications with substance use?

Happened to me one time when I ate too many Panaeolus subbalteatus mushrooms... I had "lingering effects" for a couple of months... they were very real, but they were NOT chemically induced by the botanical.

Teotz the 'symptoms' of 'psychedelic-induced disorders' aren't reduced to anxiety only. A really wide range of symptoms could be initiated, actually I think the whole range of 'mental disorders' , even psychosomatic, I would guess. I strongly believe that in the same way that psychedelics can heal off a mental or other disease, they can also initiate/catalyze the appearance of mental kinds of them...

Brigdesii experiences ARE different than other types of Trichocereus...

Would you elaborate more on this ~ say, in what way is it different, what have you heard? ?

Would a tea/Stew with Psyhcotria Viridis Leaves(strained) be a Silly idea to dismiss outright, or could it be worth trying out @ some point.

sounds like a hardcore combination to me I am not sure of why would someone do this, unless previously accustomed with each component alone. What would one wanna do with this mix?

PS: Does anyone happen to have pics of T.bridgesii that have that certain 'dark' of otherwise different aspect?

Edited September 10, 2008 by mutant

[t st tantra]

it has been quite frustrating trying to 'word' some of these issues and i'm not inclined to go there again needlessly....

some of the previous threads.........

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...t=0&start=0

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...i+dark+sinister

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...i+dark+sinister

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...t=0&start=0

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...ister&st=25

Edited September 11, 2008 by t st tantra

[mutant]

Thanks a lot, very interesting read, you're a treasure

[userofthename]

I'd just like to add an experience.

A just above threshold dose of bridgesii was ingested, subject became very hungry three or four hours later and ate some grilled squid. The squid produced strong stomach discomfort and subject struggled for the next few hours to keep it in. He didn't puke, and after a few hours all was fine. IMO an indication of some sort of enzyme inhibition.

[Teotzlcoatl]

On another note, are there reports of people who experienced a more severe form of poisoning than the 'usual' one, after a bridgesii experience, maybe due to food which 'disagreed' with the MAOI in there or something? Could any other sicknesses and body implications described by people who have ingested some trich be caused by MAOIs in certain Trichocereus strains?

That's a good question I'd like to see answered.

Well to my sub-point. I actually had never a Trichocereus/Lophophora experience to start with, but still, has anyone heard of disorders caused/catalysed by drugs [pretty often of the classic psychedelics type] ? I am referring to HPPD , drug-induced DP/DR etc etc...

A qoute for you-

The result was one of the most comprehensive multi-faceted investigations of the chemistry, psychological effects, and psychopharmacology of a psychedelic drug to be carried out in this century. Both the acute and the long-term effects of regular ingestion of hoasca tea were measured and characterized; extensive psychological reviewuations, and in-depth structured psychiatric interviews were conducted with all volunteers; the nature of the serotonergic response to ayahuasca was measured and characterized; and the pharmacokinetics of the major hoasca alkaloids were measured for the first time in human plasma. Since completion of the field phase of the study, the results have been published in a number of peer-reviewed papers (Grob, et al., 1996; Callaway, et al., 1994, 1996, 1998), and have recently been summarized in a comprehensive review (McKenna, et al., 1998). Among the key findings were that long-time members of the UDV commonly underwent life-changing experiences that changed their lives and behavior in positive and profound ways; that there was a persistent elevation in serotonin uptake receptors in platelets, possibly indicative of similar long-term serotonergic modulation occurring in the central nervous system that may reflect long-term adaptive changes in brain functions. The study did establish that the regular use of hoasca, at least within the ritual context and supportive social environment which exists within the UDV, is safe and without adverse long-term toxicity, and, moreover, apparently has lasting, positive influences on physical and mental health.

Ayahuasca is good for you!

Lophophora has been shown to have antibacterial properties. It has been shown to cure addiction and heal the sick. As well as being one of the most beautiful, easy rides in the world of entheogens, Trichocereus cacti are my favorite botanical, period.

Entheogens are really good for you!

Respect the Cacti!!!

Psilocybian Mushrooms have never been show to do any damage to human beings. 'Shrooms are probably the most potent of the botanical entheogens oz for oz, even exceeding dried Peyote. They have been show to readily induce spiritual experiences.

Mushrooms induce powerful entheogenic experiences.

Check out this thread!

I think with many of the classic botanical entheogens such as Peyote, San Pedro, 'Shrooms and Ayahuasca you really are almost completely and totally safe as long as you control your dose, set and setting. For near 10,000 years these entheogens have never seen a single recorded death to my knowledge, compare this with alcohol.

Teotz the 'symptoms' of 'psychedelic-induced disorders' aren't reduced to anxiety only. A really wide range of symptoms could be initiated, actually I think the whole range of 'mental disorders' , even psychosomatic, I would guess. I strongly believe that in the same way that psychedelics can heal off a mental or other disease, they can also initiate/catalyze the appearance of mental kinds of them...

Ha! Your telling me! I went bat-shit crazy man! Panaeolus subbalteatus made me go crazy for a good 8-9 months. I had pains, nausea, blurred vision, dizziness, couldn't eat, SERIOUS HPPD, flashbacks, etc. (This was also combinded with some serious cannabis addiction) Once I realized it was all in my head tho... it went away.

Would you elaborate more on this ~ say, in what way is it different, what have you heard??

Bridgesii is more like Ayahuasca.

While Pachanoi and Peruvianus are more like MDMA.

This does not always hold true, but is often the case in my experience. Does anybody agree?

Does anyone happen to have pics of T.bridgesii that have that certain 'dark' of otherwise different aspect?

I believe most all real Bridgesii have this quality.

Edited September 12, 2008 by Teotz'

[Micromegas]

Psilocybian Mushrooms have never been show to do any damage to human beings.

and

Ha! Your telling me! I went bat-shit crazy man! Panaeolus subbalteatus made me go crazy for a good 8-9 months. I had pains, nausea, blurred vision, dizziness, couldn't eat, SERIOUS HPPD, flashbacks, etc. (This was also combinded with some serious cannabis addiction) Once I realized it was all in my head tho... it went away.

=

The same thing that makes psychedelic drugs powerful healers, can also make them dangerous. Psychological harm is a very potent sort of harm, and a very real danger, as you pointed out.

Also, from a different cultural point of view ayahuasca, huachuma and peyote are incorporated with shamanic warfare of the highest degree.

Some powerful medicines are also fundamentally dangerous in terms of their toxicology. Datura, for example.

While I believe that using plant medicines is a powerful therapeutic tool for healing, they are not for all people and certainly not for any situation.

Micro

[mutant]

Teotz' , I appreciate your feedback , but the lining of various links / opinions praising psychedelics on your side are actually no arguements - what I suggested is pretty specific.

Like Micromegas [2 greek words in you name dude ] noted, there's a serious contradiction in your sayings, please try to understand what I am saying before you force yourself to reply. I love growing plants with psychedelic properties, that's why I am here, no need to defend them...

[George]

Psilly has a lower toxicity rating than sugar has but I don't know about all the other stuff in fresh psilly fungi.

Back when I baked mine(Dried stuff) in the oven at 80deg celcius for exactly 11minutes.

At exactly 11 minutes all the enzymes in there are dead and the potency the least affected. My belle aren't that fond of those enzymes.

Edited September 17, 2008 by George