Saddam Hussein has been executed

[narayan]

Goto google news and type gaza or west bank and compare that to how many results you get if you type "saudi womens rights" or baluchistan. Whenever there is a major military operation conducted by israel it is almost always on the news and covered in indy media, not that it doesn't deserve the media attention just making the point.

As for the isreal palestine thing, its pretty easy to label israel as the big bad bully but both sides are equally at fault for the instability in the region. Extremist groups in palestine continue to fire rockets into israel and the isreal government continues with its iron fist policy of retribution. The whole situation is fucked as and I think its pretty pointless how lefties here in australia get so over the top about the sitatuion when they have no real understanding of the history and current events. I shudder to think what the american government would do to its neighbours if put in israels position.

I probably have biased sentiments on this topic as my gf is jewish and has lived in isreal for a while and has witnessed both ends of the spectrum with regards to zionism. But being with her I see how much bullshit un-educated antisemitic crap jews have to put up with.

[Torsten]

natayan- don't you think you have to go a bit further back in history than that? I mean, the problem as far as the region sees it is that israel even exists. At a time when we have become a lot more sensitive to the rights of traditional owners, how can we still blindly support the colonial division of countries in the middle east and surrounds without regard to the people who actually do have original land rights. You see, if I was a Palestinian I would also not be able to comprehend how my land could be taken from me by a colonial power and redistributed to rich european people from overseas. And as you know, I don't think very highly of religions, so that opinion has nothing to do with religion on either side. When you then add religion into it [on both sides] it is hardly surprising that there is no fair solution that is acceptable to either side.

At a time when nations are saying 'sorry' to their original populations, compensating them, giving them equal or extra rights and financial support, power sharing and respect, we still blindly support 'poor Israel' because it is under attack from fanatical extremists. Let's not forget that the creation of Israel is based on fanatical religious extremism!!

I am not anti semitic. At least no more than I am anti catholic, anti evangelist and anti islamist. I have no problem with people who practice religion, but I despise the religions themselves for what they have done and are still doing. I do have a problem with people who practice extremism or any belief system that negatively impacts on others and justifies this with religious beliefs. Religious freedom must end where it impacts on the religious or atheist freedom of another!! And this is where Zionists are by definition extremists and no different than muslim extremists [with the difference that the zionists have a recognised government and army to support them!].

I think of the Israeli people as guests or occupiers in a land that does not belong to them as individuals. I do not see their religious roots and religious decendence as justification of this occupation. So, it is up to the Israelis to integrate into the society there. If they don't then they are doomed. And as long as they claim some sort of exclusive god-given right and religious and human superiority there simply can't be any peace. The colonial powers did not do the Jews any favour by creating a homeland for them. It merely shifted the problem to another continent and to another century.

And before anyone thinks that I believe Israel should be wiped out, think again. Just like you can't turn the clock back on white settlement in australia or many other colonial countries, you also can't undo the resettling of the Jews. But just like the wider acceptance and tolerance of original land owners in colonial countries Israel needs to become more humble and accepting and needs to start undoing some of the damage and suffering it has caused over the course of its existence. In South Africa we protested the policy of apartheid, but in israel we support it? Why? As long as Israel contributes to the suffering of the Palestinians it is only fair enough that Israel suffers too. Otherwise it will have no motivation to change.

[nil]

I have no problem with people who practice religion, but I despise the religions themselves for what they have done and are still doing.

awesome stuff, t. although, i think what you despise may not be "the religions, themselves" but, rather, the utilisation of religion as a means to establish unjust heirarchies based on personal interpretations of "sacred" texts and ideologies.

we human beings have a way of taking the beauty out of just about everything and turning it into a way to oppress and control one other and/or the Earth, herself.

[Torsten]

although, i think what you despise may not be "the religions, themselves" but, rather, the utilisation of religion as a means to establish unjust heirarchies based on personal interpretations of "sacred" texts and ideologies.

A religion is really what people make it, so I don't think there is any actual religion that is theoretically separate from its practical form. Even religions recognise this and use it to reinvent themselves, otherwise no one sensible would join a religion that killed herbalists [witches], tortured atheists, or fought in the crusades. Religions divorce themselves from their past just like individuals do not carry on the guilt of their parents.

I do get what you mean though. There is some amazing philosophy and psychology at the core of many religions which could be the basis of some amazing human advances if they weren't corrupted by the religion of the day.

[nil]

agreed. but....

it wasn't the "religions" that perpetrated the nastiness you're talking about, it was the people who assumed heirarchal positions in any given "religion". it was the heirarchical interpretation of sacred texts and laws by individual/small "chosen" groups of people in positions of power.

it isn't the "religion of the day" that's doing the corrupting, it's the human beings in power of the day as has always been the case. the bible, the qur'an, the bhagavad-gita are the basis of the three main religions of today. for each of these books there are innumerable interpretations. the issue is whose interpretation and which heirarchy does one "follow" and how so many different sects require the "followers" to follow blindly.

the interesting bit is all of these religious texts absolutely encourage independent thought, if one bothers to actually read them. not much of that to be had lately. takes to much work to think for ourselves, rather easy to have someone else lay it all out and dumb it down for us. most religions are filled with hypocrites who use "retribution from the Almighty" as a way to frighten people into doing their bidding and following their interpretation.

people mainly suck.

Edited January 2, 2007 by evolutionNth

[Guest onemind]

You mainly suck.

Lets all read the quaran to see how peaceful and loving it is:

The Qur'an:

Sura (2:191) - And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims]is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]

Sura (2:244) - Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.

Sura (2:216) - Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Sura (3:56) - As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.

Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority." This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Sura (4:74) - Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

Sura (4:76) - “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”

Sura (4:89) - They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks

Sura (4:95) - Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-

Sura (5:33) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement

Sura (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Sura (8:15) - O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end.

Sura (8:39) - And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah

Sura (8:57) - If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.

Sura (8:59-60) - And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy

Sura (9:5) - So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them

Sura (9:14) - Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace...

- Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant. The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.

Sura (9:29) - Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Sura (9:30) - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Sura (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place" This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Sura (9:41) - Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew

Sura (9:73) - O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination

Sura (9:88) - But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.

Sura (9:111) - Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Sura (9:123) - O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness

Sura (21:44) - We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?

Sura (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad, obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Sura (47:4) - So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,

Sura (47:35) - Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you,

Sura (48:17) - There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.

Sura (48:29) - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

Sura (61:4) - Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way

Sura (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Sura (66:9) - O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.

Yes, this is just another infidel taking verses out of context, rofl. 167 verses on killing infidels, stick your sacred texts up your anus.

[nil]

i'm sorry you're such an asshole. if anyone wants to have an actual conversation about islam and my calling myself a muslim i'm happy to do it, but i won't correspond or waste my time/energy with someone like you. life's too freakin awesome to entertain all the madness and disregard of all that's beautiful that's found a home in you. antagonise somewhere else. it doesn't work with me. i'm an old hag and stuff.

[reptyle]

people also blow.

i think sometimes they may also chew and spit.

i think also that i have a terrible image of saddam crapping his pants as the blood from the lower part of his neck squezed towards his eyeballs only to burst most of the blood vessels inside his brain, all this of course caused great embarrasment, also i think he thought the warm human feaces leaking down his pant leg whilst he was suffocating felt a little bit sexy.

p.s that was oh so wrong.

jews werent scapegoats, or victims until cheesus put a curse on em by gettinh himself killed and then they couldnt be arseholes anymore until they found a way through hitler to use the position of the guys that fucked up and are now sorry but noone will "forgive their sins", to utilise yankee to build the state that god prmised them when they were tripping outnmlost in the desert trying to make sens eof the few words left on the map that didnt get run\bbed of the papiris when they were running from the gyptians. but really, i reckon after the shit they went through you wouldf only wanna stand up for yourself if you really knew you were in the right else you could make a rather large imprint on the field. and that distrupt the ease with which one can use samness to make money.

lary david is fuckin hilarious.

so is saddams poo leg.

[spiders]

GEES this got off topic in my opinion. The zionist issue - whil eobviously relevant to the dynamic of the region as a whole - doesnt really relate in my opinion directly to what happened to Saddam Hussein and whether it was ethical to execute him in this manner.

It has all to do with a shi'ite majority demonstrating that they effectively have control of the country and who enjoyed jeering at Saddam shortly before his death - hardly the democracy that John Howard and George Bush claim this execution will help foster...

Certainly not any type of democracy for a sunni person whose only real representation or leadership is the ba'ath party - since the shi'ites have dominated the puppet government.

Im not saying that the sunni didnt have it coming, but killing Saddam and rubbing it in to him shortly before doing so wont make any sunnis feel like joining hands with their shi'ite or Kurd brothers any time soon.

The US will pull out and Syria (sunni) and Iran (shi'ite) will slog it out while Turkey do a bit of pay back to he Kurds...

Incedently, the palestineans arent originally from what is now Israel either - they travelled there pretty much during and after the arrival of the Seljuks and around the time of Baibairs.

[nil]

Syria (sunni) and Iran (shi'ite) will slog it out

that's going to go on forever with sunni and shi'a infighting. interestingly the qur'an is explicitly against sects being formed in the religion of islam. today, even here in australia and in other western cultures, the vocal muslim majority claim it is important to follow a madh'hab. (there's that heirarchy monster again).

[Guest onemind]

I wish allah would make his prophets a bit more understandable to prevent this from happening. He cant be that great

Sorry, couldn't resist..

[nil]

I wish allah would make his prophets a bit more understandable to prevent this from happening. He cant be that great

Sorry, couldn't resist..

SURAH 24, AYAH 35:

35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light, Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is knower of all things.

allegories are representations of abstract ideas. life is full of abstract ideas. even the things we believe we have an understanding for are still abstractions.

what is..... blue? love? justice? truth? hunger? what is the correct measure of fear?

as bluemeanie said, this has gone way off topic. i'm happy to discuss my feelings about islam and why i call myself a muslim in the spirituality forum if anyone is interested. i don't press my beliefs on anyone, muslim or non-muslim. faith and belief are intimately personal things. on the other hand, when someone makes a mockery of my faith or my beliefs, it's my belief i have to speak up to defend it. in islam this is called 'jihad'.

and nearly everyone does this, no matter what personal belief system or faith they have; spiritual, religious, political or otherwise.

[Guest onemind]

i'm happy to discuss my feelings about islam and why i call myself a muslim in the spirituality forum if anyone is interested. i don't press my beliefs on anyone, muslim or non-muslim. faith and belief are intimately personal things. on the other hand, when someone makes a mockery of my faith or my beliefs, it's my belief i have to speak up to defend it.

The only reason i'm giving you shit is because you called me mentally ill because of my views and beliefs. In my faith, if anyone pulls the piss out of me i defend myself, this is what we call self defence and also why i call you a hippocrite.

I stand by my view that anyone in the 21st century who buys into islam is retarded, jihad or no.

I would think twice before declaring holy war on people you dont know and then wonder why we have no patience with you schitzo hippocrites.

[nil]

you're really a sad person and an idiot to boot. you're not giving me shit, you don't even know me. you're pulling idiotic statements out of your arsehole based on a belief promulgated by the mass media. so impressive!! who are the "we" you are talking about? funnily enough you're the only person up in here who's got a snake in his boot someone mentioned there's a muslim about the place. ever since you've been throwing your shit at me like some kind of monkey in the zoo house. people like you are just as scary as any fundy religious zealot.

and i do think you may have asperger syndrome based on your comments on the forums in general. and asperger syndrome is not mental illness, it's a neurological difference. many great people in history had asperger syndrome and they were likely as fucking impossible to discuss anything with as you are. someone very close to me has it and it just so happens he's a systematics expert one of two in his field in australia. he barely managed a year 12 certificate. the other guy is a phd.

you're an egomaniacal wanker. you could only be so fortunate as to have a neurological difference that would allow you to affect some sort of great change to society or the environment. more than likely you've just got a super shithouse case of narcissistic personality disorder. in which case you'd be just another nutjob.

Edited January 2, 2007 by evolutionNth

[Guest onemind]

rofl, you've got all the labels dont ya.

Me thinks you're an agoraphobic who takes comfort in reading american pop psychology and bs religions.

Meanwhile i'm a borderline asperger narcisistic schizoidal megalomaniac manic depressant bipolar pseudo atheistics frontal lobed deformed autistic savant.

[MORG]

Posting rules:

2) Please be friendly and supportive (no insults).

3) Racism, homophobia, or any other bigotry will not be tolerated.

Your insults, rudeness, disrespect, immaturity, aggression etc. etc. etc. are having a negative effect on these forums.

You've had little positive to say and little of worth to contribute since you showed up and now you are attacking a respected member about whom you know nothing.

For a DMT-smoking Buddhist you appear disgustingly intolerant and narrow-minded.

[Guest onemind]

Yes, decalring jihad against people who dont believe what you believe is extremely open minded.

[nil]

*sigh* learn things.

on that note, i have a non-muslim pal i have to declare jihad against by sharing some sacred cactus with tomorrow; so i best get off here, drape myself in some confronting clothing and load my uzi.

[Guest onemind]

hehe, i really did have you pegged that time didn't i?

Nice hut by the way

[occidentalis]

on that note, i have a non-muslim pal i have to declare jihad against by sharing some sacred cactus with tomorrow; so i best get off here, drape myself in some confronting clothing and load my uzi.

er, um... yeah.. about tomorrow...

[faustus]

evolutionnth: is it true that mohammed killed and robbed individuals in his lifetime, after he became an alleged prophet? from what i've read, this is accepted by scholars, but justified by them as necessary, or a sign of the times in which he lived.

i consider myself quite open-minded, but if this is correct, i don't think these are the actions of an "englightened" individual. people may kill in the name of jesus, but the man himself seemed a decent bloke.

on topic: has anyone seen saddam's execution tape? it's not very graphic and the quality is pretty chat but he took that noose like a man.

[Guest onemind]

Sadly, i did watch it. I dont know why i do it to myself.

But yeah, the filming was too crap for it to be disturbing. You would think in a high profile case like this they could have put some effort in.

[nil]

evolutionnth: is it true that mohammed killed and robbed individuals in his lifetime, after he became an alleged prophet? from what i've read, this is accepted by scholars, but justified by them as necessary, or a sign of the times in which he lived.

i consider myself quite open-minded, but if this is correct, i don't think these are the actions of an "englightened" individual. people may kill in the name of jesus, but the man himself seemed a decent bloke.

share your scholarly sources on that and i'd be happy to respond to them.

[nil]

er, um... yeah.. about tomorrow...

put your hands on your knees!

put your head on the floor!!

haha! i didn't say abdul says!!

[Guest onemind]

I heard he was a paedophile and rapist and said it was ok to beat woman and stone infidels to death.

jk..