Do we want and/or need religion?

[Hagakure]

True, i am not talking about general day to day ignorance, i am talking about a genuine deluded view that something that is wrong is taken to be right. Whereas the majority, not suffering from that particular delusion can clearly see those acts are wrong.

if there is no good and evil dont wrong and right disappear as well?

Are you telling me that every nazi that fought for hitler were evil monsters? They were just as human aas you or I that got caught up in a mass delusion of hatred and fear. We all know how one negative person can bring down the whole mood, when someone like that, with confidence and strenght gains a position of power, extreme chaos reins. Its not satan pulling the strings of the meat puppets, just human delusion in progress.

i completely agree

But hey, lets start a topic on how deluded christians are and then end up spending the whole time preaching christian concepts, good and evil, heaven and hell, soon you'll be saying jesus walked on water.

its interesting to see how much religious foundations still influence the thinking of those who have been exposed to it. compare the good vs bad hollywood movies to the "there is no good and bad just different motivations" type movies that come out of japan (im thinking miyazaki mostly - very shinto stuff)

If a person truly is in contact with ultimate reality 24/7 then they would automatically experience connection and compassion for others, not kill, steal or do anything that causes others to suffer. Not because they are following rules out of fear of hell or bad karma but because they genuinely know what life is and how to act.

Unfortunately, 99.999999999% of humans are not 100% enlightened and are in various states of ignorance which leads to acts that to an enlightened being would seem deluded or "evil". When i say ignorance is the cause of suffering, i am saying ignorance of ultimate reality.

are there really universal truths? isnt this just another form of delusion that, because it benefits everyone, is highly attractive?

dont get me wrong here - i agree with a lot of what you are sayig, just enjoy philosophical discussions.

i used to have one forum where i was really left wing and another forum where i was really right wing. gotta test your own ideas sometimes, y'know

[Guest onemind]

if there is no good and evil dont wrong and right disappear as well?

Right, there is no right or wrong, we decide what is worthy of doing and what is not. I think we can all agree that actions that result in suffering for ourselves and others are wrong, and actions that result in happiness and goodness are right.

its interesting to see how much religious foundations still influence the thinking of those who have been exposed to it.

Yes, i think western thought and christian values are more ingrained in some more than they even know.

are there really universal truths? isnt this just another form of delusion that, because it benefits everyone, is highly attractive?

Of course there is a universal truth. However it is, it is. We just cant see it Hence ignorance and unskillful acts

dont get me wrong here - i agree with a lot of what you are sayig, just enjoy philosophical discussions.

So do i Probably waste too much time having the same discussions over and over with different people

[Hagakure]

Right, there is no right or wrong, we decide what is worthy of doing and what is not. I think we can all agree that actions that result in suffering for ourselves and others are wrong, and actions that result in happiness and goodness are right.

why should we all agree on that? if i took great pleasure enslaving and murdering toddlers then why should i change my actions? im happy.

[Guest onemind]

hy should we all agree on that? if i took great pleasure enslaving and murdering toddlers then why should i change my actions? im happy.

For now maybe, but causing suffering to others leads to suffering for yourself. I think we should leave it there because it branches out into karma and i am not here to preach my views of cause and effect. Just stating that i think there is no such thing as evil and "the devil made me do it" mentality is misguided.

However, i will say, when i am spewing my guts up sick, i think "this is bad" because i feel like crap. But to everyone else, it is not good or bad, it just is. So good and bad is relative to the experiencer but ultimatley amoral.

[Hagakure]

nah lets keep going, im interested in your laws of cause and effect

do they require good and evil?

[Guest onemind]

Just noticed something -

why should we all agree on that? if i took great pleasure enslaving and murdering toddlers then why should i change my actions?

I think we can all agree that actions that result in suffering for ourselves and others are wrong

You missed out the key point You may be happy but the toddlers aren't. This requires selflessness and the buddhist teaching of non self.

As for discussing my views on karma, non self, dependent origination and other buddhist philosophy, i'm not sure this is the right thread for it.

[Guest onemind]

do they require good and evil?

No, they do not require good and evil, they require ignorance and wisdom

There is an old buddhist book called the dhammapada which has alot of wise sayings by the buddha. I'll paste a few verses to give you the general gist of the teaching.

Edited October 18, 2006 by onemind

[Hagakure]

You missed out the key point smile.gif You may be happy but the toddlers aren't.

nah i saw that. im saying why should we agree on that? what if i didnt agree that actions that result in suffering for ourselves and others are wrong.

say i dont beleive in good or evil, i dont beleive in right or wrong.

this buddhism caper is just another type of mass delusion a whole lot of people agree on. not a universal truth.

(this is a hypothetical me talking, dont call the cops people)

Edited October 18, 2006 by Hagakure

[Guest onemind]

A couple verses from the dhammapada:

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

I recommend reading the dhammapada because it is a small book, only takes an hour or so to read, and gives non buddhists a glimpse of what we think. Just seach - "dhammapada" on google to find a good translation. There are many.

A small buddhist poem that captures the concept of cause and effect, skillful and unskillful acts.

I am of the nature to grow old.

There is no way to escape growing old.

I am of the nature to have ill health.

There is no way to escape ill health.

I am of the nature to die.

There is no way to escape death.

All that is dear to me and everyone I love are of the nature to change.

There is no way to escape being separated from them.

My actions are my only true belongings.

I cannot escape the consequences of my actions.

My actions are the ground upon which I stand.

The bottom line is, without getting into heavy buddhist cosmology, philosophy and concepts is, there is no good and evil, we create our own realities by our actions via cause and effect, there is no evil spirits or evil people, just ignorance and delusion and all are capable of changine their present moment and there is no eternal hell or heaven, just a constant state of change.

[Guest onemind]

nah i saw that. im saying why should we agree on that? what if i didnt agree that actions that result in suffering for ourselves and others are wrong.

say i dont beleive in good or evil, i dont beleive in right or wrong.

this buddhism caper is just another type of mass delusion a whole lot of people agree on. not a universal truth.

(this is a hypothetical me talking, dont call the cops people)

I see, well i dont think you should agree with anything, try your hardest to find out for yourself.

[Hagakure]

there is no good and evil,

good, murdering those toddlers wont be evil then

 

we create our own realities by our actions via cause and effect

time to create my toddler murdering paradise

there is no evil spirits or evil people

bonza, im not evil

just ignorance and delusion

i am a very educated murderer. i know full well the problem in my brain and why it is making me find murder so pleasurable, yet, i see no reason to stop.

what makes buddhism less of a delusion?

(okay i kinda know one answer to this question already but i will maintain my postion)

oh and thats my last post for a while

i have been procrastinating all afternoon and really need to get some owrk done

cya later

Edited October 18, 2006 by Hagakure

[Guest onemind]

Ok, good questions

Here goes:

Murdering toddlers is not evil. You can go out right now, murder as many as you can before you get hunted down, thrown in jail or executed. According to cause and effect, the results of your actions causing all them parents to suffer the loss of their children will lead to states of suffering. Now, murdering toddlers made you "feel good" but now as a result, you "feel bad". This is what its all about really, people doing various things to "feel good". If you have to desend to a state of woe to realize that your actions did not lead to a prolonged state of "feeling good" then i would call that ignorant, unwise and unskillful, not evil.

You can "label" these acts "evil" but not in the sense that your acts were directed by evil spirits, devils or other dark forces.

Edited October 18, 2006 by onemind

[Guest onemind]

i have been procrastinating all afternoon and really need to get some owrk done

Same here Talk later..

Edited October 18, 2006 by onemind

[chilli]

The original question presents a false dichotomy, or is at least far too vague, and so is impossible for me to answer, because I dont want or need religion, unless it is true and meaningful.

I would find it much easier to answer something along the lines of:

I think religion is an important part of human existence, and has potential relevance and meaning in my life.

OR

I think religion is not an important part of human existence, and has no potential relevance or meaning in my life.

In this case I would vote for the first one.

[botanika]

Good and bad are the same notes played at different octaves.

do we need religion or even civilisation? possibly not - do we need art, language and technology plus a belief in the supernatural? absolutely!

[gomaos]

The original question presents a false dichotomy, or is at least far too vague, and so is impossible for me to answer, because I dont want or need religion, unless it is true and meaningful

I think the original question was quite clear and easy to understand by most.

It has established that there are approx 20 % of us who say they need religion, the rest doesn't.

Religion being totally different from spirituality;

religion being mainly words and belief-systems forced upon us by books and priests, whether we like it or not, mostly being psychopathic delusions of some whacko prophets, later exploited by greedy evil governments to oppress people....

spirituality being the worlds upon worlds inside one's mind and heart that one only discovers if he/she dares to look deep inside themselves....

the point I'm trying to make is that spirituality is one of the greatest goods given to us by birth but being discovered only by one's willpower...

while religion is the negative side of the coin, it's spirituality broken down into stupidity and blind following,

spirituality turned into money and power by greedy evil churches etc....

and yes, to me it is utterly evil to kill toddlers, and anyone who kills someone who kills toddlers is a hero.

You can twist and turn around the meaning of words as much as you like, but people who intentionally and

professionally make other people suffer, are evil and should be dealt with accordingly.

But that's just my 2 c and everyone is entitled to their own views, of course...

[Guest onemind]

Jesus

Turn the other cheek

Buddha

Hatred is not ceased by hatred, by love alone is hatred ceased.

Most other religious teachers

Dont kill, it doesn't make you a hero, just a friggin hypocrit

Gomaos

I think that people who kill....are heros

I think these religious wackos are more with it than you.

Just my 2 cents

Edited October 26, 2006 by onemind

[gomaos]

just what i was talking about: twisting and turning words around any way you want

"gomaos: People who kill...

are heroes...'

yes I stand by it: People who kill mass-murdering maniacs, are heroes

people who kill innocents are mass-murdering maniacs and should be destroyed (not by me however, I suffer from enough karma already)

this to me includes all humans, no matter if american, english, australian, whatever, iranian, iraqui blablablba...

people who kill innocents don't deserve to live!

[Guest onemind]

Dont mistake me, i am not twisting words. I specifically left out the who to emphasise the point that killing is killing, it doesn't matter who.

How buddha would deal with these "evil" bandits

The simile of the saw - training oneself to avoid negative and hostile thinking

"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.

Murdering a murderer makes you a murderer. But whatever, your life your problem...

[gomaos]

murdering a murderer makes you a murderer. But whatever, your life your problem

sure, luckily i never murdered anyone, and hopefully never will.

I probably have just watched too many movies, seen too many news reports about wars etc....

Re Buddha: He's totally right, but I don't believe I could act like that, even if he's totally right...

[gomaos]

mmmmmmmmmmmhhhhhhhh.... i feel i have to elaborate here....

perhaps those of you who don't know me think I'm some old vietnam vet or so...

nothing could be further from the truth

when I was 18 in Germany they wanted me to join the army there

I thought: fuck you, my father went 5 years into russian prisonership, almost died for his "home country"

well not for his homecountry, rather for Hitler...

(My father insisted, even many years after the war, he never killed a single person, which I am proud of)

well that fucken home country never paid him a single penny compensation

(even today they still pay compensation to other countries)

another uncle of mine died in the war (like many other relatives)

i was born seven years after ww2 was finished...

now they wanted me to join their fucken army/conscription?

no way!

I refused for conscience reasons, there was a tribunal of some old war-hero-assholes and civilians,

I was lucky and passed

but never did no civil service either (fuck em)

I had to state

"even if the russians or whoever came again, raped and tortured my mother and sisters and brothers, I would do nothing, just stand there (like buddha)"

which I didn't think much about at the time...

so why my hatred?

Mostly movies, especially that one movie about the vietnam war: those kids from american suburbia get sent to vietnam, all of them stupid dorks, one of them gets horny, kidnaps a civilian vietnamese girl, rapes and kills her, and at the end is dobbed in to american military authorities by one of his mates...

I believe he didn't even get the chair...

if it was up to me, I would have fried him slowly on the chair, over a week or so, not fast, that bastard...

that story was based on reality...

here's where my disbelief in god kicks in:

any god who can watch that (he'd have to watch it since god sees everything) and stand idly by,

maybe all-powerful but if he doesn't care and does nothing, to hell with fucken god...

that movie (early nineties) turned me of all oyther war-movies, haven't watched any since, save for that from the south-park-idiots (Team america, which i also hated)

I also feel great hatred against just about ALL soldiers everywhere

It's only because those ppl agree to get paid for killing whoever their government tells them to, that wars are possible...

we do need police to protect us from murderers and thieves, but not from ourselves (i.e. smoking some dope or so)

we do need soldiers to defend us from intruders, but not to invade other countries (unless like in the case of Timor, which was just about the only good thing the Howard Government ever did)

I hate all police and soldiers who work for corrupt governments (most governments are)....

so what's the conclusion? Nothing! All of these things will continue forever.

Why? Because most people hate their lives because they don't know how to enjoy them, hell, IT''S PROHIBITED TO ENJOY LIFE other than through dumb idiotic sports etc....So because they hate their own life they go around destroying other ppl's lives... an eternal evil circle... I just hope the next stage, the next life, whatever happens after death, won't be so stupid....

[botanika]

'The best thing any young man can do to stop war, is not join the army'

Albert Einstein.

[gomaos]

'The best thing any young man can do to stop war, is not join the army'

Edited October 28, 2006 by gomaos

[reptyle]

hard to post after such a big post as that. i feel small. or my letters do anyway.

onemind ure buddha quote doesnt say anything about not getting up and knocking the shit out of the people savagely attacking you. it just says dont get angry or feel hatred whilst ure doing it,.

for example, say for some reason you lost ure concious mind for a little while and whilst u were gone ure body decided to try to assault someone, would u want that someone to try and stop u from doing that to them? even if it meant fatally injuring u to save themselves?

if a human life is like a strange fractal box that unfolds from a sinlge point infinately, then pretty much all the stuff u know, u needed. u might not anymore think u need it, but when u packed ure box, u decided not to leave it out. but of course if thats not what a human life is then this para makes no sense so ignor it.

[Guest onemind]

The bottom line of what the buddha teaches is that all actions have effects and one must take complete responisibility for what they say and do. As for you losing conciousness and your body going on a rampage, the buddha tells many stories of how he deals with the mentally ill. There is no excuse for a well trained, diciplined mind to be overcome by anger, rage and hatred like so many untrained minds. Buddhism is just a training on mind devellopment so you can control your reactions to situations instead of blaming them on the devil or on george bush or on some other propaganda.

Edited October 30, 2006 by onemind