I need help selecting a tree for a suburban garden

[Torsten]

My sister has an old wattle tree in her front yard which is about to die and needs to be removed. It's huge and will leave the whole yard rather bare, so a new tree needs to be planted as soon as possible. There are many limitations and requirements for the type of tree owing to the fact that there will be a social area in it's shade, so it must not have staining berries, heavy fruit, falling branches etc. Anyway, here is a list of properties I am looking for. If any are unclear please ask for clarification.

* fast growing (there are orchids, gingers and other shade plants udner the current tree and they will not survive too many seasons without a shade tree).

* relatively long lived (ie not as short as Acacias. Maybe minimum 30 years, but 50+ would be better)

* min 15m final height

* large spreading canopy (we want maximum shade from a single tree)

* no bat attracting fruit (it's a B&B, so bat noise and bat poo are a big no no)

* not shedding anything much (ie not deciduous). small seeds & petals are fine.

* low danger (no large seeds/fruit or branches to fall off)

* suited to Gold Coast hinterland (it's in the cooler hills, so not as hot and steamy as GC, but still definitely frost free.

* preferably native (this is really only a preference, not a requirement)

* preferably not common - BUT must be available as somewhat advanced plant (I have lots of nursery contacts, so challenge me)

any input would be appreciated. I have to decide within the next week or so. Botanical names preferred so I can search for images and info.

[naja naja]

Salix babilonica (weeping willow) not native and can be weedy around water ways.

Agonis flexuosa (peppermint) Not exactly fast growing, not exactly a great shade tree until it's old, but when it's established it will be very long lived.

Metrosideros excelsa (NZ christmas tree) nice flowers, but again not fast growing to a shade tree height.

Brugs

Boab (for oddity value)

Datura

But my favourite...... Pick a live, everygreen oak. Sure to outlive u, averaging 200 years in age and known to go 1000 years.

Evergreen species in genus Quercus

* Section Quercus. The white oaks. Europe, Asia, north Africa, North America. Styles short; acorns mature in 6 months, sweet or slightly bitter, inside of acorn shell hairless.

o Quercus arizonica - Arizona white oak - southwestern North America

o Quercus emoryi - Emory oak - southwestern North America

o Quercus fusiformis - Texas live oak - south central North America

o Quercus geminata - Sand live oak - southeastern North America

o Quercus ilex - Holm oak - southern Europe

o Quercus oblongifolia - Mexican blue oak - southwestern North America

o Quercus pungens - Sandpaper oak - south central North America

o Quercus turbinella - Shrub live oak - southwestern North America

o Quercus virginiana - Southern live oak - southeastern North America

* Section Cerris. Europe, Asia, north Africa. Styles long; acorns mature in 18 months, very bitter, inside of acorn shell hairless or slightly hairy.

o Quercus calliprinos - Palestine oak - western Asia

o Quercus coccifera - Kermes oak - southern Europe

o Quercus semecarpifolia - Himalayan oak - eastern Asia

o Quercus suber - Cork oak - southwestern Europe

* Section Protobalanus. Southwest USA & northwest Mexico. Styles short, acorns mature in 18 months, very bitter, inside of acorn shell woolly.

o Quercus chrysolepis - Canyon live oak - southwestern North America

o Quercus palmeri - Palmer oak - southwestern North America

o Quercus tomentella - Channel island oak - southwestern North America

o Quercus vacciniifolia - Huckleberry oak - southwestern North America

* Section Lobatae. The red oaks. North, Central & South America. Styles long, acorns mature in 18 months, very bitter, inside of acorn shell woolly.

o Quercus agrifolia - Coast live oak - southwestern North America

o Quercus canbyi - Canby oak - Mexico

o Quercus humboldtii - South American Oak - northern South America

o Quercus laurifolia - Laurel oak - southeastern U.S.

o Quercus hypoleucoides - Silverleaf oak - southwestern North America

o Quercus polymorpha - Coahuila oak - Mexico

o Quercus rhysophylla - Loquat-leaf oak - Mexico

o Quercus wislizenii - Interior live oak - southwestern North America

[Torsten]

Salix babilonica (weeping willow) not native and can be weedy around water ways.

no waterways, so no problem. But not really the best shade tree. Also, I don't think it is actually legal to plant these anymore - it's certainly not legal to sell them.

Agonis flexuosa (peppermint) Not exactly fast growing, not exactly a great shade tree until it's old, but when it's established it will be very long lived.

Don't know this one so will look it up.

Metrosideros excelsa (NZ christmas tree) nice flowers, but again not fast growing to a shade tree height.

Brugs

Boab (for oddity value)

Datura

None of these are big enough.

brugs @ minimum 15m???!??

I have a metrosideros and it makes a rather big mess due to the flowers. That doesn't disqualify it though. How big do they get>

But my favourite...... Pick a live, everygreen oak.

I grew up in a german village with the name "3 Oaks", so yes, I did consider them, however they are really too slow for this purpose. I am basically looking for something that will provide something of a canopy in 3-4 years - just like a wattle, but longer lived.

[cisumevil]

How about....

Cercis canadensis

Malus 'Prairifire'

Koelreuteria paniculata (This ones lovely)

Pistacia chinesis

Ginkgo biloba

Zelkova serrata (This is a winner)

[Prophet]

I have seen some really nice mexican weeping pines (Pinus patula) recently. Cones seem to persist on the tree and are not shed regularly so that wouldn't be much of a problem. Needle drop is minimal. I think branch shed is also minimal. They seem to do really well in the cooler hilly areas, i saw some at springbrook and mount tamborine recently. Not a native though. I even saw one with staghorns and elkhorns growing on it and mosses. Very fast growing as well.

[sobriquet]

I would suggest a few trees that are all magnificent in their own way:

1. Podocarpus elatus.

A dioecious tree that produces an edible 'plum' which is actually the stalk of the seed. When you have one tree, and given it's not a common species at all up in QLD there's unlikely to ever be fruit.

They are magnificent looking trees dating back from the dinosaur age and grow extremely quickly to stately sizes. Unusual in that it is one of the broad leaf conifers and has alot of interest being an Aboriginal bush food.

The Illawarra plum tree, Podocarpus elatus R. Br., is a common rainforest evergreen, belonging to the same major group as pines but with no true cone (Cribb & Cribb 1982b). It is a tall tree growing to around 36 metres in height with a thick spreading crown, and is found in dense subtropical, riverine and seashore rainforests along the east coast of Australia from Cape York peninsula almost to the NSW-Victorian border (Low 1991). Due to its wide spreading crown and prolific fruiting, P. elatus is a popular shade tree, often planted in parks and gardens (Low 1991). When cultivated as such, trees tend to be smaller than in their natural environments (Page & Olds et al. 1997).

P. elatus is superficially similar to taxus or yew species but no part of the plant is even slightly poisonous (Anon 1999). It is able to tolerate mild frosts but not drought (Page & Olds et al. 1997). Once a common tree in Australia, it is now rare due to the destruction of the rainforest, and most mild stands were felled or cleared last century (Low 1991). P. elatus is a dioecious species, with separate male and female plants, which must both be grown if seeds or fruits are required (Anon 1999).

Features. Plum Pine trees grow to 40 m and are fast growing, taking 8 to 10 years to reach maturity. They do not have cones like the other conifers but instead have a single seed attached by a fleshy stem to the branch. This clearly shows that conifer seeds are not surrounded by a fruit. The male and female cones are found on different trees. Birds help disperse the seeds of Plum Pines. Podocarpus plants are fire tolerant (unlike most other conifers).

This is what I'd choose.

2. Agathis robusta - Queensland Kauri pine.

Another magnificent tree that grows in a tight columnar pyramidal shape when young but spreads out into a beautiful canopy. Another broadleaf conifer that were once the tallest trees in Queensland before they were cut down for colonial uses.

Another very fast grower and again evergreen meaning minimal mess.

3. Metasequioa glyptostroboides - Dawn Redwood

Another magnificent tree. Again a conifer and a fast grower. This was another 'Wollemi pine' type discovery back in the 1940's when it was discovered in China as a living fossil.

Please let us know what you choose ultimately

Edited August 29, 2006 by eNo

[Torsten]

Agonis flexuosa - shape is great, but tree is too small (maximum 10m tall)

Cercis canadensis - way too small

Malus 'Prairifire' - wayyyy too small (c'mon, you can barely park one armchair under one of these)

Koelreuteria paniculata (This ones lovely) - messy pods shedding. also environmental weed.

Pistacia chinesis - not bad. Maybe a little on the small side, but that's OK if all else is right. I know these from victoria where they a deciduous. would they shed leaves in the cool subtropics too?

Ginkgo biloba - these definitely deciduate. they also stink.

Zelkova serrata (This is a winner) - I agree, this looks really good in shape and size. however, it is zone5-8, so does anyone know how well it would do in seqld? Also, is it deciduous in the cool subtropics? And do we have dutch elm disease in oz?

[Torsten]

1. Podocarpus elatus.

A dioecious tree that produces an edible 'plum' which is actually the stalk of the seed. When you have one tree, and given it's not a common species at all up in QLD there's unlikely to ever be fruit.

Daley's sells it so there is great potential for another plant anywhere in their delivery area. However, doesn't dioecious mean that I could get a male plant and not have to worry about berries at all?

The problem with rainforest tree is that many are tall but don't have much of a spreading canopy (which is what is needed here). A combination of tall and wide would be nice. Podocarpus can probably be encouraged to be wider that usual, but the other two species don't seem to be that way inclined.

I should also mention that they are only one house away from national park, so fire risk is something that may need to be considered too. hence conifers are not the best choice.

[sobriquet]

1. Podocarpus elatus.

A dioecious tree that produces an edible 'plum' which is actually the stalk of the seed. When you have one tree, and given it's not a common species at all up in QLD there's unlikely to ever be fruit.

Daley's sells it so there is great potential for another plant anywhere in their delivery area. However, doesn't dioecious mean that I could get a male plant and not have to worry about berries at all?

The problem with rainforest tree is that many are tall but don't have much of a spreading canopy (which is what is needed here). A combination of tall and wide would be nice. Podocarpus can probably be encouraged to be wider that usual, but the other two species don't seem to be that way inclined.

I should also mention that they are only one house away from national park, so fire risk is something that may need to be considered too. hence conifers are not the best choice.

Unusually for a conifer Podocarpus is fire tolerant

And I put up some pics, that show the canopy. When planted as a specimen tree it grows quite wide. You'll see from the 'blurb' that it is planted as a shade tree in public gardens. It's true that if they are planted close together they'll compete for the light and grow in a narrow way, but that's true of any forest tree.

It's very fast growing. Amazing in fact and a beautiful tree to look at throughout its growth.

May I suggest another to consider?

4. Magnolia grandiflora - Southern Magnolia

A pic from Sydney...

Evergreen and has beautiful white large flowers. Grows to 20-30m.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_grandiflora

But the Podocarpus is truly wonderful and unique

Edited August 29, 2006 by eNo

[wandjina]

I'm a sucker for trees with flashy flowers...so I'd suggest Bauhinia spp...pretty sure would be evergreen in gold coast climate.

i'm with eno on the Magnolia grandiflora....The massive one at Neilsen park is impressive.

Or how about Neem (Azadirachta indica) fast grwoing, evergreen, fragrant flowers, useful.

[Torsten]

I'm a sucker for trees with flashy flowers

yeah, so am I, but the excercise here is to find one with small flowers (ie non messy)

Or how about Neem (Azadirachta indica) fast grwoing, evergreen, fragrant flowers, useful.

I have a neem that I bought 30cm high. It is now 4 years later and it is about as tall as me. It dies back every winter, even at minimum temps of 8degC. My sis' place is cooler than that. You sure you don't mean the false neem? Melia azedirach? I considered that one too, but it doesn't form a broad canopy and I have seen it sucker really bad in some places.

[wandjina]

there's a tree round these parts...always green, seems to grow quite fast, good solid trunk, repells insects...

and what lovely foliage

[Cptn Insane'O]

Yeah but what about all the purple currawong s#@t all over your BBQ.

You just can't go past the native rainforest trees! There are just so many amazing trees to choose from. Try the native frangipanni tree (Hymenosporum flavum), or the firewheel tree (Stenocarpus sinuatus), the spectacular flame tree (Brachychiton acerfolius). Even just a Pittosporum undulatum sounds perfect for the job. A fancy Syzygium, a Macadamia can grow nice and large, silky oak (Grevillea robusta, Blue Quandong (Elaeoczarpus grandis), a fig would be nice. Hell Torsten, plant yer sister an Antarctic beech! I dare you.

[Cptn Insane'O]

I suppose a Bunya pine is out of the question.

[wandjina]

Yeah but what about all the purple currawong s#@t all over your BBQ.

No worries...that's what a blackberry and privet decoy hedge is for.

[Cptn Insane'O]

I think you me need to have a fight or something over that one.

[sobriquet]

Hi Torsten.

What tree did you end up selecting?

[Torsten]

I recommended the Podocarpus to her, but she decided on the Magnolia grandiflora. Then once the crappy acacia had been cut back to a 5m tall stump we decided it actually looked better without a huge tree, so now there will be no main large tree, but lots of smaller ones and heaps of palms. The stump will be covered in orchids and ferns and most of the yard will be filled with small tropical trees and shrubs. Hymenosporum flavum is on the list.

thanks again for everyone's help. My sis may yet change her mind again . Either way I'll keep you updated. And hopefully this thread will be useful for someone else with the same mission.