Echinopsis (Trichocereus) peruviana 'Icaro' seed available in bulk

[Torsten]

So far our most desirable cactus has been peruvianus 'Len', which is a fat, blue, medium spined plant. It is by far the prettiest in our collcetion. However, we can only propagate about 10 of them per year, so availability has always been an issue.

The peruvianus 'Icaro' plant is very similar in that it is also a stunning blue even if it does have somewhat longer spines. The most important thing however is that this is a highly active proven strain. Icaro currently supplies a large amount of dried cactus material to the american and european market and his stuff is the preferred material for those who can get it. It is harvest at Matucana in Peru at 2500m elevation.

We have previously only had small amounts of this seed, so could only offer seed packets, which always sold out really quickly. We have just received a literal shitload of seed, so for a little time we will be offering bulk seed at a huge saving for those who want to start plantations of this beauty. For the moment the most convenient pack size is 1g. This equals about 1250 seeds.

We should have a few hundred of these available as plants in the next few months (from a previous batch of seed).

http://shaman-australis.com.au/shop/index....&sort=2a&page=2

[Gunter]

The most important thing however is that this is a highly active proven strain. Icaro currently supplies a large amount of dried cactus material to the american and european market and his stuff is the preferred material for those who can get it. It is harvest at Matucana in Peru at 2500m elevation.

I don't know about "highly active" the plants involved are feral (not cultivated) and dried outer flesh seems to have values at or even below values that other cultivated forms have for the entire plant.

I'd say they are very attractive and somewhat active, strong growing forms for sure, but there are a number of people who can get Icaro cactus flesh and don't because better sacramental forms exist.

The seeds would be a great source of breeding material and should have some diversity, Icaro flesh is said to vary, I have never heard of it being weak, though some batches will be weaker or stonger.

The truth is it seems to be be average for an active T. peruvianus, but T peruvianus doesn't seem to be a form that is known for being strong medicine if you compare the data and experiences of it against certain bridgesii and pachanoi forms, even with the so called potent forms of peruvianus, nearly all of which are similar to the Icaro cactus.

Still they are lovely cacti.

[Torsten]

archaea - you are going by interational standards, where plants have been selected for many decades, or even imported from shamanic tribes as proven individuals. we don't have that luxury here in Oz and really until 5 years ago there were virtually no strains that had any known reliable activity. in fact, one of the most common peruvianus strains sold as sacramental is 'gnosis' which sits pretty close to the bottom of the pile.

of the traders I am in touch with most would buy icaro material if it was more competitively priced. so in those cases where they don't buy it it is mostly because they can get cheaper. here in Oz we can't get anything, so a seed variety that offers a reliably good (albeit obviously not uniformly excellent) strain is a huge step forward for us and will allow this community to build a decent peruvianus source in a matter of a few years. specific individual selection can then proceed from this pool.

personally I just love the blue columns. as long as we have TBM I don't understand why people want 2 foot lengths turned into green goop

[Gunter]

specific individual selection can then proceed from this pool.

It is quite a good pool to be wading in so to speak. They are magnificent specimens and I expect there to be enough variety in the seedlings to be make growing them from seed very worthwhile. ．

[apothecary]

You always make life hard T

I finally decided to prioritise my Trich collection on just bridgesii, and you come out with this!

Good work as usual, look forward to buying a few of the plants, Mexicali said he had some available too but I never heard back from him.

What would you put the germination rate of the seed at?

[teonanacatl]

as long as we have TBM I don't understand why people want 2 foot lengths turned into green goop

we will try this one out to

[Happy Cadaver]

Rev's had these icaros seedsfor ages and was supposed to have seedlings due out soon. Cute seedlings

Shouldn't you be calling the TBM's now ELM's according to your taxonomy update (Echinopsis lageniformis monstrose)?

[Pisgah]

So, it is settled...

We will endeavor to cross Potent Bridgesii clones with selected seedlings from highly desirable feral peruv/macrogonoid gene pools.

An excellent idea gentlemen! Let's proceed...

[Torsten]

Rev's had these icaros seedsfor ages

I've been trading with Julio since May 05, so just over a year. It seemed to be an unstable and unknown supply, so we simply sold the seed as T.peruvianus. A few months later when we realised Icaro was establishing himself quite nicely we had already added some unnamed knize seed (and possibly others) into the same lot. We do however have plants of the first seed lot

Anyway, I wasn't advertising the fact that we now have this seed as that is nothing special. I was however advertising the fact that we now have this seed IN BULK - at least for a limited time. This is to help others establish plantations of their own, so we can stop lagging so far behind the rest of the world.

Shouldn't you be calling the TBM's now ELM's according to your taxonomy update (Echinopsis lageniformis monstrose)?

yep. It's not 'MY' taxonomy update. It's the generally accepted taxonomy. There's a difference between listing names and colloquial use of the names though. I have a similar problem with latin pronunciation too. I know how it is supposed to be pronounced, but if I do then no one knows what I am talking about. Case in point psilocybe, where I just can't get myself to say it right. So yeah, I'll probably keep calling them TBMs for a while.

[Gunter]

I know a lot of cats stateside are growing and sowing these and related seeds so to speak. It is kind of exciting because there is a chance of the line being somewhat more homogenous compared to others making it very ideal for breeding as well as considering a good representative. I have some related seeds and a small number of the Icaro, though I think I can aquire seedlings sooner or later.

[bit]

We have previously only had small amounts of this seed, so could only offer seed packets, which always sold out really quickly. We have just received a literal shitload of seed, so for a little time we will be offering bulk seed at a huge saving for those who want to start plantations of this beauty. For the moment the most convenient pack size is 1g. This equals about 1250 seeds.

We should have a few hundred of these available as plants in the next few months (from a previous batch of seed).

http://shaman-australis.com.au/shop/index....&sort=2a&page=2

On the website they're listed as $4 for 25 seeds, I can't see a 'bulk' listing? How much are you looking at for a 1gram pack as described? Any issues with postage to NZ?

[Torsten]

On the website they're listed as $4 for 25 seeds, I can't see a 'bulk' listing? How much are you looking at for a 1gram pack as described? Any issues with postage to NZ?

They are right there on that page, just below the $4 packet. Sorry, can't make it any easier.

[Rev]

yeah these are the same cacti i have now in some numbers

bridgesii has one main virtue, these have several. its certainly true a hybrid may be superior to both.

i could sell now but really once youve played with the buggers for 2 years

youre best off doing the east bit which is getting them from 1cm to 10cm and make a dollar or extra

est time of readiness is conservatively december

but could be any time b4

i have a new secret weapon LOL an equaliser that removes all impediment bewtwwen me and coastal growers - a 13 month frost free growing season ;)

(and its not my new greenhouse nor does it involve any electrical cost)

so yeah ive made back the $ i spent bringing in seed

LETS HAVE AM ICAROS SALE!

25 seeds for $3.80

http://funkyfungus.org/product_info.php?cP...e19498bbcf6743d

1g seeds for $25

http://funkyfungus.org/product_info.php?cP...e19498bbcf6743d

what the fuck hey...undercutting is the name of the game so ive been shown

when it comes to future breeding

never fear

between herbalistics,funky fungus and independant cooperative shenanigans theres going to be clones that make eileen look like backebergs :D

dont ya just wish TBM would flower! what a parent it would make

[Gunter]

dont ya just wish TBM would flower! what a parent it would make

Totally, I wish I knew where it was first collected too.

[apothecary]

bridgesii has one main virtue, these have several. its certainly true a hybrid may be superior to both.

As usual Rev, your posts only leave me with more questions.

I assume when you say the main virtue of bridgesii, you mean its extreme "usefulness". What are the several virtues of the Icaro/Len?

I only ask because in my collection nothing is as hardy and vigorous as the bridges...

Edited June 24, 2006 by apothecary

[woof woof woof]

Totally, I wish I knew where it was first collected too.

probably muto's grown from seed.

probably also a natural occuring mutation. A good thing would be to collect seeds from all kind of mutated brid's the hybridize the ones that flower.

he he he - chem induced mutations "teenage mutant echinopises!" wuahhahaahaaahahahaha! :-P

[Gunter]

All of the early descriptions of bridgesii sound like TBM, I think it has been in circulation outside of south america for over a century.

[Rev]

What are the several virtues of the Icaro/Len?

I only ask because in my collection nothing is as hardy and vigorous as the bridges...

usefulness is a primary selective pressure but its not everything

The icaros seed has shown so far traits superior to bridgesii in

seedling vigour

rot resistance

sun hardiness

for these 3 traits i would say its the best seed ive ever grown

i like its big fat seeds too. Big fat seeds are a genetic trait - i also see it in the many watermelon varieties ive grown - and translates to more vigorous seedlings

In my collection bridgesii as adults has several issues

fisrt it doesnt like the humidity and is more susceptible to rot than most other trich - excepting Scops- in the late summer. Actually huascha and allies are also prone to collapse..

secondly they dont go fully dormant in winter and so get frost damaged in the subtropics where nights freeze but days are warm

all my other trichs go into dormancy and escape any damage 90% of the time

another improvemnet to be made in bridgesii is the speed of maturity from seed to flower and the tendency to flower more often

gardenworld Scops win hands down in the seed to flower timeframe IME

Less ferocious spines on bridge would also be a good thing, but withou compromsing its existing benefit of fewer overall spines

for those who want to have a play with the future of cactus genetics id recommend trying Herbalistics scopxbridgesii seeds

its good seed with known parentage and the seedlings are vigorous

Bridgesii s all the rage at the moment but over the long term i still believe that pachanoi will retain its major role.

You cant beat pachanoi for its relative spinelessness, ease of rooting, hardiness to rot, cold and humidity, fast growth rate and with the right clone it can be extremely useful. its main shortfalls are that we have crap selections in horticulture and many are shy to mature and flower

anyway i hope people dont get tunnel vision for only one trait but select throughout the lifecycle for super strains.

Edited June 25, 2006 by Rev

[apothecary]

Good points, you tend to forget things like humidity/frost problems when living around these parts

Fat seeds are a genetic trait I can appreciate from my own experience with a well known but illegal plant...

The way you speak about pachanoi makes me want to put in an order for some bulk seed though

[Torsten]

i like its big fat seeds too.

If your seed are bigger than average Echinopsis then you might want to count the icaro seed yourself rather than just copying my numbers, cos my (this season) Icaro seed is actually smaller than most of the other Echinopsis seed around. ie, your gram of seed might not contain anywhere near 1250 seeds after all.

Happy counting

Also, what's the reduction in viability of seed after a year? Most of my Echinopsis seed is pretty much dead after 3 or 4 years, so 12 months must give it at least a reduction of 10 to 20%. So maybe your cheaper seed isn't such a bargain after all

The good thing about cactus seed is that you can buy fresh seed every year. The old seed doesn't go to waste as it can be germinated - you can never have too many cactus seedlings

[Rev]

Happy counting

Also, what's the reduction in viability of seed after a year? Most of my Echinopsis seed is pretty much dead after 3 or 4 years, so 12 months must give it at least a reduction of 10 to 20%. So maybe your cheaper seed isn't such a bargain after all

its an interim # ill update

i always handcount all seed orders i pack to send out

if people want 1000 seeds i count the 1000 and theyll be 1000 good seeds. so therell be more than 1000

I have not noticed a drop in the viability of this seed. i think the larger seed lose viability more slowly

good to see youve changed your mind about seedling cacti. I remmeber you telling me it wasnt worth doing as nothing could be done with them for at least 3 years. 3 years flies by doesnt it.

[Torsten]

good to see youve changed your mind about seedling cacti. I remmeber you telling me it wasnt worth doing as nothing could be done with them for at least 3 years. 3 years flies by doesnt it.

My stance about cuttings vs seedlings was a matter of space and proven varieties. The problems we had with Omar not coping with the humidity up here were a good lesson in needing more biodiversity (losing 300 plants in one week makes you rethink strategies ). Also, we've gone as far as we wanted/needed to with propagating existing plants/strains.

We've just had one of KK's strains reduce itself from several boxes of seedlings down to a couple of dozen plants as a result of them being highly susceptible to black rot at all times of the year it seems. That is one we won't be growing anymore. A similar situation a couple of years ago would have been disastrous. At the moment such a situation just means we have more space for others

Space is always an issue and in terms of growing seed it is the main limiting step. I have lost more seed to rodents than to anything else, so I would always chose veg propagation over seeds unless I can protect my seedlings. Now that we've had a rodent proof seedling house for a year we can be extravagant with using seed box space and seed will likely be the main method of prop.

The other issue a few years ago was seed availability. Most seed sources at the time were very unreliable either in terms of packaging, ID, or payment options. Some of these are now much easier and somewhat advanced (at a cost). for example, if you asked KK to send to australia 4 years ago there was about a 80-90% chance of you not getting the parcel, either because the money did not reach him, or the order got lost, or worst of all he did not label his packets properly for quarantine. All of these problems are now pretty much fixed thanks to the people who 'trained' him. Importing a few hundred bucks worth of seed 4 years ago was about an average 50% risk of total loss. Now the risk with most suppliers is on average less than 10%. This makes a huge difference to seed diversity availability and seed quantity.

[Gunter]

Rev, in my collection bridgesii do not seem to have the same issues as they seem to present for you. Granted I am in a temperate location and must overwinter my plants, but I have not had any dormancy, rot or sun issues with them myself. From seed bridgesii seem to be slower than many plants, but in my experience tend to be bushier than others varieties and still grow rapid when established. Bridgesii are also known from very high elevations and are reported by some to be among the hardiest of San pedro allied Trichocereus.

I have never grown a type more vigorus than SS02 X SS01, not even SS01 X SS02, obviously cytoplasmic inheritance must play a role in growth rates. I should point out though that it is a cross between a macrogonus like peruvianoid and a water tolderant fast growing wider than average bridgesioid. I have never noticed a correlation between seedling vigor and seed size, though I have noticed homogenous lots tend to be slower than hybrids overall.

I think people should select against negative traits and for positive ones, much of of this depending upon personal tastes.

[Guest RedHead]

Great seed thread. Any thoughts on how to extend seed shelf viability. I was hoping I could put some away like super.....for retirement purposes.

[occidentalis]

Great seed thread. Any thoughts on how to extend seed shelf viability. I was hoping I could put some away like super.....for retirement purposes.

Plant em. They gain interest so much faster. And by the time you're in retirement you can reap the rewards .