Outdoor loph cultivation

[Alice]

is it possible to successfully cultivate lophs from seed outside?

location: central coast/newcastle NSW, 1 hour north of sydney.

they would be housed in a greenhouse with a laserlite roof, so the rain can be kept out. i could also convert the greenhouse to a hothouse if necessary, by removing the shadecloth walls and replacing them wil more laserlite. would keep in more heat over winter, is this necessary in my climate?

they would need to be outside permanently, planning on planting a fair few so its not possible to germinate them inside due to space constraints.

what month of the year should the seeds be planted, ideally?

i've read some other posts, but keen to know if anyone in my climate has done this successfully? i havent had alot of hands-on experience with lophs, so i would like opinions as to whether or not this idea is feasible.

and yes, i was inspired but the peyote way greenhouse :D

it would be a shame to have my big old greenhouse just sit in the backyard empty..... i'd rather put it too good use so nice of the previous owners to leave it there for us when we bought the property.

i'm open to any opinions/comments/suggestions on how best to go about this project.

cheers,

alice

Edited June 8, 2006 by Alice

[occidentalis]

I have never tried outdoor seed germination, but I would suggest that humidity would be the main limiting factor. I don't know if you have much experience with cactus seed germination, but they need very high humidity for the first few months. Most people start their seeds in ziplock bags or other sealed containers and keep the humidity close to 100%. At some point between a few months and a couple of years the seedlings are removed from the high humidity environment and adjusted to normal RH levels. This is obviously going to be quite difficult in a glasshouse and could lead to other problems.

My suggestion would be to start your seeds in ziplock bags or other smaller containers and then plant out 1-2 year old plants in your glasshouse.

[planthelper]

yep as creach say's...

loph seedlings are somehow the total opposite from older specimens.

somehow one can keep them constantly wet (brocoli box with sheet of glass on top) and humid for quite a long time. if you want to germ them without any artificial heatsource than wait till summer is on the doorstep, as high temps mean much higher germ rates, specially if the seeds are not extreemly fresh.

they can germ in 3 to 4 days but might take a few days more. you have to keep the soil (i use searls seedrising mix for them, forget gravel, lol) very, very moist till they germ. so you mist them everyday.

they will absorbe moisture via there skin and can swell up very fast.

anyhow the laserlite roof sounds like the way to go, just don't give them too much direct sunlight, idealy give them direct morning and afternoon sun, but only 50 or more % filtered middaysun.

i learned from teo that they absorbe moisture over night, so make sure your glass/shade house trapps just a bit of condensation, or provides with some humidety. but sure be carefull not to create a scenario wher lophs will just rott away.

good luck, i work on a similar project right now.

Edited June 8, 2006 by planthelper

[teonanacatl]

a nice little trick with seedlings to stop them burning is place stones next to them which shield them from the sun. A guy on the tablelands has some lophs about 8-10cm and super blue and beautiful, his shade structure prolly lets through 70% diffuse light and he gives them this every day and waters every day, im still trying to determine how sun intollerable lophs are but sofar a few hours of midday sun + strong morning light hasnt fased them.

Id do as these guys suggest and grow them to a larger size first then plant, id investigate the soil structure to see what needs to be added etc, no point just makign that section better well drained as all the water will prolly flow there from the other parts of the yard. Id prolly build up 20cm or 30cm and dig down20-30 and install drainage from there away to somwhere else. You could make a plastic humidity structure out of PVC and laser light which you could use to maintain humidity in the raised beds untill the plants are bigger, a humdifier could be used or a misting system aswell. In fact i reckon a early morning misting could be enough for them to survive.

Ive got some lophs in a large terracotta pot as a group setting and sofar they seem to be doing worse then those in smaller individual pots, im guessing more root growth, though i water it less because of its bigger size.

[Alice]

Thanks heaps for all your suggestions, got my brain ticking away

My suggestion would be to start your seeds in ziplock bags or other smaller containers and then plant out 1-2 year old plants in your glasshouse.

ok, so keep high humidity for how long after germination?

or maybe it is better to ask: until what size/diametre?

i thought that high humidity is only necessary for germing, and then once there up they can be weened off the moist air and put in normal air.....

wont they just rot if humidity is kept high?

really looking foreward to trying this, i love a challenge ;)

[Alice]

Id do as these guys suggest and grow them to a larger size first then plant, id investigate the soil structure to see what needs to be added etc, no point just makign that section better well drained as all the water will prolly flow there from the other parts of the yard. Id prolly build up 20cm or 30cm and dig down20-30 and install drainage from there away to somwhere else. You could make a plastic humidity structure out of PVC and laser light which you could use to maintain humidity in the raised beds untill the plants are bigger, a humdifier could be used or a misting system aswell. In fact i reckon a early morning misting could be enough for them to survive.

the greenhouse has steel benches all around, so was going to have the seedlings in trays on the benches, not in the ground. there's a tap nearby, and the greenhouse already has misting setup from the previous owners. i think they were growing ferns or orchids or something, as the greenhouse was in heavy shade until we pulled it out more into the sun.

so i could get a timer and set it up to mist a couple of times a day...

i play around a bit and post some pics, see what u all think.

thanks again, most helpful :D

[occidentalis]

ok, so keep high humidity for how long after germination?

or maybe it is better to ask: until what size/diametre?

i thought that high humidity is only necessary for germing, and then once there up they can be weened off the moist air and put in normal air.....

wont they just rot if humidity is kept high?

I still haven't figured this out exactly. They grow faster when in the high humidity environment so it is preferable to leave them in there for as long as possible, but there is the danger of rotting after too long.

Trichs can handle much longer periods than lophs and other arid zone cacti and seem to be OK for even up to a year, but that could be too long for lophs.

[Alice]

some thoughts:

bunnings have these neat little greenhouses for about 20 bucks. i think there the same ones people are using to grow shrooms, ie 2 or 4 tier frame covered with clear pvc plastic. i might get a couple of those, put them inside the greenhouse, and use those as germination chambers. in summer. they will be pretty much sealed so the humidity will remain high. the insulating effect of "greenhouse within greenhouse" should help to keep the temperature up, and then i can move them onto the greenhouse shelves when they're big enuf. also save valuable bench space by having the mini greenhouses under the benches, leaving the benches free for other cacti.

i'm gonna rip of the shadecloth and turn the greenhouse into a hothouse, hamiltons cacti have shown me inside there propagation hothouses, the humidity is very noticeable and they seem to get good results. i'll make some provision for ventilation too, maybe louvers at each end.

can you get "flat" laserlite type sheeting anywhere? the stuff with the ridges is good for the roof but i'd like flat stuff for the walls....

i used to have a little digital min/max thermometer and humidity meter, but i gave it away some years ago. anyone know where i could get another one?

[teonanacatl]

Yeah ive had lophs under high humidity in less then sterile conditions of a year and the longer you leave it the more you loose. There is a nice inbetween and if it were sterile this would take alot longer. The mist system would hardly be sterile so be best to get them weened off quickly. I quite like Revs way of propagation because i feel it quite sterile, i believe he leaves his lophs in humidity for upto a year. Under lights is the way to go, much quicker growth.

Youll be looking to be self seed sufficient so id get some pereskiopsis and graft a couple of dozen lophs that way they will be your seed factory and so you can sow a few hundred seeds a year untill the other plants start to flower.

[Alice]

as for seeds:

anyone had any experience with earth alchemy's loph seeds?

http://www.earthalchemy.net/cacti.html

is tearth alchemy run by someone on these forums?

they're got a number of varieties, and bulk seed (packs of 100) too, plus its an australian business by the looks of things.

i notice SAB has more loph seed now also.

[Alice]

Under lights is the way to go, much quicker growth.

i wish i had the space inside for many lights....

has anyone actually tried to germinate outside, in summer, in a humid hothouse? i'd like to give it a go, in the name of science and maybe i can bust a myth in the process...

i'm not trying to be a pain here... other people are getting good results using ziplock bag method and under lights etc... but maybe no-one has tried the outside germ (in relatively controlled conditions), maybe because of the expense of seed and coz lophs are quite finicky?

they've grow outside by themselves for thousands of years, so maybe its just a matter of getting the conditions right. i hope...

and anyway, i'll have heaps of fun conducting this little experiment! :D

Youll be looking to be self seed sufficient so id get some pereskiopsis and graft a couple of dozen lophs that way they will be your seed factory and so you can sow a few hundred seeds a year untill the other plants start to flower.

got some pere's recently from sab, damn they root and grow fast! i couldn't believe it! i'm having to chop the tops of coz they're outgrowing the fluoro prop chamber in only a few weeks!

[teonanacatl]

yup i germinated them in +40 celcius in my cactus house under glass.

[planthelper]

the last batch of lophs i germed outdoors (no hothouse) was on the 21 of april and they came up nicely, mind it though that my location is quite hot.

i had frost 2 weeks ago, but the lophs which are all outdoors didn't care at all.

i never lost a single loph in the humidety chamber, i guess i leave them for 4 months in there or more...

[Alice]

yup i germinated them in +40 celcius in my cactus house under glass.

sweet, it can be done then! cant wait to get started, but have to hold out time it warms up first. time to start collecting seeds :D

[Alice]

the last batch of lophs i germed outdoors (no hothouse) was on the 21 of april and they came up nicely, mind it though that my location is quite hot.

i had frost 2 weeks ago, but the lophs which are all outdoors didn't care at all.

i never lost a single loph in the humidety chamber, i guess i leave them for 4 months in there or more...

ok cool, i'll go 4 months then. roughly how big are they after 4 months planthelper (mm)?

also, whats a good germination rate %? if all goes well that is, and assuming reasonably fresh seed.

[SirLSD]

ordered from earth alchemy and got them just fine.

got some l williamsii, l williamsii var cardona, and var huizache.

if you get some of the other varieties and want to swap some for some of mine let me know.

[darkhorse]

I can't speak for seed germination however I have grown my lophs outdoors for years here in Sydney, no green/hothouse, and only recently did I have a problem with overwatering by other house members, as for winter we're now starting to get some frosty mornings but it doesn't seem to bother them too much, but in saying this they have already endured 2 winters and only the first one really made the poor buggers look stressed out.

I think if your careful let them get used to a winter or 2 outdoors and I think they might adapt as mine seem to have. Just pay a little attention if they start to freak out bring them indoors or get them in a green/hothouse or whatever else that may be satisfactory for their recovery. But this is coming from a person who is as far from a green thumb as you can get so if I can keep these buggers goin anyone can. :D

[Guest Mexicali]

Simply, loph seed can take over a year to germinate outdoors (and that's in Voctoria and NSW) and once it germinates, it's quite slow by comparison to heaters and lights. You are also likely to get a VERY LOW strike rate from your seed if you sow it oudoors