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Inyan

Purple Trichocereus: Those posted of mine are from Zelly's seeds

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I have a very few specimens that seem to develop purple coloring after exposure to colder temperatures. Out of my many Huarazensis x Zelly hybrids.5aa012e1f2820_HuarazensisxZellypurple.thumb.jpg.ee17f76be1f3fc9afa0809a104a64562.jpg.. these two show a bit of purple5aa012f5184d3_HuarazensisxZellypurple2.thumb.jpg.c19ed666dcbd7da04c35e8a42f2f1a65.jpg. Out of my Trichocereus scopulicola x Trichocereus terscheckii seedlings I have just one so far that is5aa0138732a15_TrichocereusscopulicolaxTrichocereusterscheckiipurple0.thumb.jpg.671075ec5d3f2e7f1f63963526c58f5b.jpg showing any purple... but I don't have that many of this hybrid grafted either so I'd say this is a pretty good indicator that this last hybrid may throw out purples in a higher concentration and perhaps darker specimens than what I am seeing.

 

Anyway, I'd like to see everyones purples if they don't mind sharing. The few purples from the many Zelly seedlings I have grafted are growing on me. Lets hope this trait stays with them as they mature. And please... post your own purples here my friends as I know I'm not the only one with them.

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Hey mate, they look lovely. The Huarazensis x Zelly cross is one of the best ones I´ve seen this year. Can´t wait to see how mine will come out. The scop x Terscheckii have a lot of potential too. About the purple color. This kind of discoloration is usually a temporary reaction to the environment, eg when they are stressed, when they get a lot of sun or from a lamp, from the cold etc. It´s usually not permanent. That said, there are a few mutants with reddish skin color so I´ll keep my fingers crossed that it stays. 

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8 minutes ago, Evil Genius said:

Hey mate, they look lovely. The Huarazensis x Zelly cross is one of the best ones I´ve seen this year. Can´t wait to see how mine will come out. The scop x Terscheckii have a lot of potential too. About the purple color. This kind of discoloration is usually a temporary reaction to the environment, eg when they are stressed, when they get a lot of sun or from a lamp, from the cold etc. It´s usually not permanent. That said, there are a few mutants with reddish skin color so I´ll keep my fingers crossed that it stays. 

I figured that the purple color was related to them being stressed from the cold. A temporary reaction like the changing color of leaves during the fall. However, out of a thousand+ seedlings grafted this year I have only 3 or so that show this strong reaction. Note, I treat all seedlings equally so to see the rest of my seedlings not showing this trait it shows me it is indeed a trait that may be worth going after. I love the change of leaf color in the fall. If I can have a sea of cacti that develops purple color in the fall or winter then I am more than happy even if it is not a permanent change. I look at it like this... do you like Japanese maples when the fall color comes? That color is not permanent, but it is beautiful. 

Now, if you can breed two purple specimens together and breed for darker purple winter colors then that to me would be a beautiful goal. Imagine much darker purples with perhaps a blue color or reddish skin color the rest of the year. This is what the vast majority of my seedlings look like grown in the same conditions.IMG_3338.thumb.jpg.817fd161293264da7e946525643e4f26.jpg. Even in the same seed tray... same cross... I don't see these purple mutants all of which are growing under the exact same conditions as they share the same soil... etc.

Edited by Inyan
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Seedlings grown in the exact same environment... not showing this purple trait.seedtray1.thumb.jpg.fd33bf690cd8a89299313ba05ab4e88e.jpg.. same environment. When one can search through a sea of non purples in the same tray and neighboring trays it does make me think there is something to this. Now, if the majority were purple as happens when I start my seedlings out in full sun I would say perhaps it is not so unique at all. All my purple seedlings grown in full sun merely grow a nice dark green after a few weeks at most of that purple color. They outgrow it. With that said, I'm going to continue to be hopefully optimistic and if the trait does not return next year on these few then so be it.

 

Also of note, I generally graft on a weekly basis so there are seedlings at various stages of development both more advanced and less advanced in growth than the purple specimens I have posted.

 

Edited to show... what I am proposing is not that far fetched as it has already been done with these little guys. https://thechillbud.com/20-popular-purple-cannabis-strains/

Edited by Inyan

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I'm letting the majority of my grafts go down to -2 degrees celsius tonight to see if I can find any more purples in my collection or perhaps just intensify the purple that I do see. Keep your fingers crossed I don't loose all my young babies guys and gals. 

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Very interesting 

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Okay guys, we all know the full extent of the damage is probably as yet to be felt. But boy am I hopeful. I managed to turn up the heat a bit after my sentinel Datura starting showing signs of damage. Without further ado.

 

Datura guardian Daturafrostdamage82.thumb.jpg.74d3ee832b195b9b99ba17cbac0182b2.jpg Little bit of damage showing to one Trichocereus in the back while purple urkel5aa2ceb9d143f_purplehighlights7frostdamagetoonebehind.thumb.jpg.88ea7acf43303333e416e01965d5108d.jpg up front seems to have darkened up a bit. 

It is hard getting such a light frostdamage1.thumb.jpg.60db5414645ddb522c57023a1d1c91d8.jpgamount of damage and I count myself lucky that I was able to do so... thus making it easier to detect purple genes that see to be environmentally influenced as well as helping to detect the weak guys and girls that show cold damage. Make no mistake, I think things will be worse in the days to come as cold damage takes a few days to fully show itself sometimes.

My special, Trichocereus peruvianus "Clyde" x Trichocereus Zelly5aa2cfa84f86d_NopurplenofrostdamageTrichocereusperuvianus22ClydexZelly8.thumb.jpg.f12b18b573e7b35603fd4782cfb0c93e.jpg was almost saved from the culling attempt, but then how could I call it a great culling if I didn't at least try to include this very special gal in the mix as well? Better to lose weak genetics than to fret over having them introduced back into the gene pool later I always say. Purplehighlights75.thumb.jpg.6e75dd62e1c528e9f6f0c4425ceab656.jpgpurplehighlights6.thumb.jpg.194308475c7362ad9119aee335cadb54.jpg5aa2d176a7a76_TrichocereusscopulicolaxTrichocereusterscheckiipurplehighlights9.thumb.jpg.f4882adb55d5955f74f689b0874282c9.jpg

 

Happily, some variegates have made it through all my attempts to cull them so far. No purple showing in those gems, but without further ado... some of my very young Zelly variegates.5aa2d05523315_184variegate.thumb.jpg.cf4bce145186896eb612ad990a17adcc.jpg

 

For those wondering, Huarazensis hybrids and Trichocereus scopulicola hybrids seem to be my favorite purple producers so far after several cold spells I have put them through and with that being said... they still appear very rarely so I'd like to see larger numbers grown and reported back on.

Edited by Inyan
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Interesting stuff Inyan, I have a few suntanned grafts that really look purple but I don't think they qualify.

It might be of interest to you that another way of increasing production of anthocyanins appart from cold temperatures is magnesium treatment (e.g: epsom salt).

It was found that magnesium can increase anthocyanin production between 15 to 70% and "had a stronger effect under elevated temperatures", which could make this method more suitable for cacti than cold treatment.

 

See this study: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14620316.2007.11512262

Edited by MeanGreen
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28 minutes ago, MeanGreen said:

Interesting stuff Inyan, I have a few suntanned grafts that really look purple but I don't think they qualify.

It might be of interest to you that another way of increasing production of anthocyanins appart from cold temperatures is magnesium treatment (e.g: epsom salt).

It was found that magnesium can increase anthocyanin production between 15 to 70% and "had a stronger effect under elevated temperatures", which could make this method more suitable for cacti than cold treatment.

 

See this study: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14620316.2007.11512262

I agree with you on the suntanned grafts turning purple. I'd say the majority of my seedlings start out purple... especially so during the hot summer months as I grow them in full sun from day 1. They germinate in full sun generally lose that purple color once growth starts to explode... i.e. after being grafted a few weeks.

 

With that being said, my seedlings never turn purple again due to full sun once they get used to it. Again, I grow all of my cacti in full sun. 

 

What I am after is not a transient effect from the initial getting used to full sun that I see with too many seedlings to count and is never seen again. But rather a transient effect that comes seasonally as cold weather comes the cacti changes color like leaves in the fall. Just based on the fact that there are only a handful in my collection that have any merit when it comes to that trait tells me that it is variable and very likely tied into genes and how they interact with the environment to create a novel phenotype during the cold winters if they are allowed to experience that cold. 

 

Who knows, perhaps seedlings of such purple seedlings such crossed will also turn a darker hue of purple when grown out, but while that may be cool... it is too transient and too short of a period to be of much merit other than as a way of saying... those dark purples must show some relation to the purple urkles that were line bred to produce dark purple winter colors. 

 

Now, I must confess, I like your epsom salt idea as well as it just might be helpful in pulling out some of the purple (i.e. helping one identify other hidden purple genes) out of those that have other desirable characteristics. Never mind darkening up the purples we already have. The drawback however is that in the study you mentioned... elevated temperatures helped with Magnesium, but who knows perhaps Trichocereus are different and it would work both with elevated temperatures and with decreased temperatures?

Edited by Inyan
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May certainly be wrong but the purple is a pigment change due to environmental factors it seems.  i have seen a lot of trichs go purple not just from cold, but more often from dehydration/sun.

 

Peresk grafts are certainly more prone to it, and seedling grafts as well.  which kind of points towards an environmental change in chemistry.

 

If you got larger plants that were well watered, good warm temps and in sun that is "normal", and still had purple, that would b something to breed for.  others are seemingly just more prone to wahtever environmental stresses that trigger teh abundance of purple, or the lsser of green/orange pigments.  much like some sweet potato types, for example, the purple types go green when in full sun, but through selective breeding they got ones that stayed purple in that exposure setting and now some types, especially the lef vegetable purple types, stay purple even in the most intense sun....any more sun they just go brown haha.

 

also note your heavy purple types will be able to photosynthesis, unlike pure yellow for example, but will almost certainly grow quite slow, so the selective breeding process involved in that and the end reward may or may not be worth it, but you seem right into it so a 20 year investment may well be worth it :)  Ill be firt in line to see your solid purple pedro.

 

wonder how pigment is in relation to mesc.  probably not a big importance, but would be intereting to test teh solid variegated (albino) types to see if they are also active.

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5 hours ago, kadakuda said:

May certainly be wrong but the purple is a pigment change due to environmental factors it seems.  i have seen a lot of trichs go purple not just from cold, but more often from dehydration/sun.

 

Peresk grafts are certainly more prone to it, and seedling grafts as well.  which kind of points towards an environmental change in chemistry.

 

If you got larger plants that were well watered, good warm temps and in sun that is "normal", and still had purple, that would b something to breed for.  others are seemingly just more prone to wahtever environmental stresses that trigger teh abundance of purple, or the lsser of green/orange pigments.  much like some sweet potato types, for example, the purple types go green when in full sun, but through selective breeding they got ones that stayed purple in that exposure setting and now some types, especially the lef vegetable purple types, stay purple even in the most intense sun....any more sun they just go brown haha.

 

also note your heavy purple types will be able to photosynthesis, unlike pure yellow for example, but will almost certainly grow quite slow, so the selective breeding process involved in that and the end reward may or may not be worth it, but you seem right into it so a 20 year investment may well be worth it :)  Ill be firt in line to see your solid purple pedro.

 

wonder how pigment is in relation to mesc.  probably not a big importance, but would be intereting to test teh solid variegated (albino) types to see if they are also active.

I don't know where people see keep getting that purple is caused by anything other than genes and their interplay with the environment. That is what has me truly confused.

 

"

"What Makes Weed Purple?

Years ago, the only purple strains you could find were only purple due to environmental conditions. Plants grown outdoors that were subject to prolonged periods of cold temperatures would start to develop a purple color."  https://thechillbud.com/20-popular-purple-cannabis-strains/

 

Similarly, some Trichocereus seedlings seem to be more prone to turning purple due to environmental conditions. At least in my garden. 

 

Edited by Inyan

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There is actually weed that is (and has been) always purple, has a very distinct and recognizable flavour to it.

In the netherlands we call it purple, without any varieties of it just purple

Edited by DualWieldRake
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The bottom line is that the environment often does affect how genes influence phenotype.

 

Phenotype expression can change readily such as when leaves change colors in the fall or or it may even take generations of being exposed to the same environment.

 

With genetics, its not just nature, but nurture has a role in it as well when it comes to  phenotype and expression. Traits affected by the environment can indeed often be bred for.

 

DualWieldRake, there are often more than one way to introduce a trait or breed for a phenotype. Look at eye color in dogs for example. Blue eyes can result from more than just one set of genes. Blue eyes can indeed result from recessive genes, dominant genes, or even a combination of recessive and dominant genes. To say there is only one way at arriving at a phenotype "look" is as ridiculous as calling all Trichocereus that look a certain way a preferred clone or predominant cultivar. The reality is that a phenotype is what we can see with our eyes and does not in any way indicate that what is hidden within that cacti "its genes" is the same as another cacti. Sure, we might be able to argue that there is a strong likelihood that certain traits are inherited from "x" parent, but the reality is that even if the same gene or genes responsible for a particular phenotype are in "x" parent, that those genes could have been passed on from an ancestor to "x" and not from "x" itself. So, whether a blue eye color is caused by merle genes, genes that reduce pigment, genes for albino color, or a dominant gene such as seen with Huskies, we have at least 4 different ways dogs can have the blue eyed phenotype or the expression of blue eyes.

 

 

 

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The bottom line is that the environment often does affect how genes influence phenotype.

 

precisely.

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10 hours ago, kadakuda said:

 

precisely.

And as such, those genes that have the potential to most be affected by the cold could be bred for to intensify those traits... perhaps even to the point of remaining purple regardless of the time of year. As with many advances in hybridizing, one sees a trait and then seeks to intensify it through breeding the best two with that particular trait together and or backcrossing to the parent that exhibits that trait. Sure, some times it is a dead end, but the road not traveled will not yield any fruit along the way.

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yes exactly.  Thats teh point i was trying to make.  you wouldnt be "breeding for purple" so much as yopu would e breeding for the reaction to the trigger for purple.  much like any leafy plant variety.  the difference ebing the cactus has a WAY longer reproduction time than sweet potato for example.  so thats all was trying to get at.  you breed for the gene that triggers pigment increase/decrease based on wahtever trigger that may be, likely light and/or water and go from there.  but whereas a new sweet potato that is purple might only take a few years, cactus would probably take the same but in decades.  respect to all those who do it and more respect to those who manage it quicker :)

 

but i think we agree, we are not breeding for more purple as if it were some kind of co-dominant pigment trait that can simply be selective bred with liek colors and relatively accuratley be assumed they would become more of that color.  as seen especially in animal morph breeding.  we are breeding for a reaction to an environmental stimulation or reaction that changes a plants pigment and needs to be played out in numbers and over time.  doable for sure, but some time and space required.

 

I will be watching for sure :)

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On 3/21/2018 at 5:40 AM, kadakuda said:

yes exactly.  Thats teh point i was trying to make.  you wouldnt be "breeding for purple" so much as yopu would e breeding for the reaction to the trigger for purple.  much like any leafy plant variety.  the difference ebing the cactus has a WAY longer reproduction time than sweet potato for example.  so thats all was trying to get at.  you breed for the gene that triggers pigment increase/decrease based on wahtever trigger that may be, likely light and/or water and go from there.  but whereas a new sweet potato that is purple might only take a few years, cactus would probably take the same but in decades.  respect to all those who do it and more respect to those who manage it quicker :)

 

but i think we agree, we are not breeding for more purple as if it were some kind of co-dominant pigment trait that can simply be selective bred with liek colors and relatively accuratley be assumed they would become more of that color.  as seen especially in animal morph breeding.  we are breeding for a reaction to an environmental stimulation or reaction that changes a plants pigment and needs to be played out in numbers and over time.  doable for sure, but some time and space required.

 

I will be watching for sure :)

I think we are splitting hairs here, but I do agree with the idea that one would indeed be breeding those cacti that responded the strongest to the stimuli of the cold to turn purple.

 

As for this being a simple case of co-dominance or such, I agree that is most likely is not that simple at all.  However, genes are genes and as such they manifest as the phenotype one sees due to things like environmental stressors.

 

Just as tricotyledons appear very rarely and randomly in the sunflower for instance, there has been a strain that has been bred that sprouts tricotyledons rather than dicotyledons. I’m supposing that we don’t know anything about the inheritance of this purple other than the fact that I seem to have 1 or 2 out of several hundred that show this degree of purple at this age. So, it does appear to be a fairly rare occurrence at this stage and with the variables I have my cacti subjected to. With that being said, it appears to be more rare than a tricotyledon in that regard. A trait, that can be bred for. 

 

The problem with breeding for any trait is you need at least one specimen with that trait. The more specimens you have, the more you have to work with and select for. However, if you see a trait and notice that there is indeed a change of magnitude or expression and simply fail to breed for or select for that change than you have missed that opportunity.

 

We can’t say for certain what would happen if we took the two darkest purple specimens out a thousand seedlings and bred them together what that might bring us in the next generation. Perhaps 1 or 2 out of a thousand such seedlings might indeed be purple from the start. Perhaps not, as we have no basis to my knowledge of such an experiment having been done with Trichocereus. Conjecture only gets us so far. To really know one must explore and do. Then one must be content with knowing that one only really knows in as much as one has had the time to do and know. Without actual breeding and growing out of such specimens we are merely talking in theory as the end results of our experiment in thought will not be known until that experiment has actually born fruit.

 

Another truth I see in your reflections is that much time and or space may be required. I agree. The nice thing about numbers is that there is power in numbers. You can grow a thousand Brugmansia seedlings from the wrong cross and only get one or two flowers in color.  From the right cross with Brugmansia you can get double pinks, and single pinks of many different shades in a small handful of seedlings.  So, I imagine the same may be true of Trichoereus and the color purple. I can make an entire tray of small seedlings turn purple for instance by exposing them to cold. Get them a bit older however and perhaps none will turn purple given the same exposure. Still, when I notice that there are exceptionally dark purples amidst a sea of green… I must confess I hold those specimens as superior for that trait than those that remain green from the same pedigree, age, and size specimens grown in the exact same tray under the exact same conditions.

 

So, I don’t believe we can know what a single cross of such a cross of two dark purples might give us in the first generation, but I know for certain we will never know if we never try. And I am not such a fool as to think it should all be over in one simple cross.  We simply can’t know what we do not know before we know it.

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totally true.  actually a good point about you can expose a tray of hundreds of seedlings to whichever environmental factor and pick and choose from those experiments.  I guess i was mostly focusing on the time it takes to bring plants to reproduction for the second, third, fourth etc crosses being the main time such.  Seems the cactus experiments might actually be relatively non space demanding then....if one has the climate for outdoor growth, all the easier to plunk those pretty purple little guys outside and let them bloom.

 

ps.  i recommend looking into using light photo period for triggering blooming artificially much like in flower and fruit production.  its done commercially with other cactus already and would bet large it works with these as well.  use Hylocereus as a beginning point to determine what kalvin, lumen and period of time to begin with then fine tune for that.

 

good work, sounds like a blast.

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I'm a huge fan of purple seedlings! I've got a theory about them. I'd love to have some of your input on this. So to the best of my understanding the color purple in cactus are caused by betalains. Betalains are aromatic indole derivatives synthesized from tyrosine. Tyrosine is synthesized from phenylalanine. 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine (Mescaline)  is biosynthesized from tyrosine or a hydroxylated phenylalanine.  Thank you wiki. ;) So a cactus that is purple is showing an abundance of tyrosine ;) ;) at the least. Right???

 

Meangreen, anthocyanins are unrelated to betalains, but I'd still be interested to see if magnesium treatments would affect the betalain content.

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Thought this listing might be of interest to you Inyan, doesn't even look like a tricho to me but the seller seems pretty reliable even though everything he sells is wildly overpriced.

 

Purple Crested Pachanoi from Thailand: https://m.ebay.com/itm/incredible-NEW-clone-of-Trichocereus-pachanoi-PURPLE-CRESTED-from-Thailand-GY-/312118004123

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BUYER BEWARE on that purple crest auction......take a close look at picture #6, the growing tips of the crest have no place to go & are jammed tight against the root stock....

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Seed grown Oscar x Olivia crest from Zelly’s seeds last year, getting some purple happening....

214A02A6-8579-47CC-B963-75A5C702EC02.jpeg

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