Anonymous Friend No More.

[Kent]

After reading Dionysus' post I understand Anonymous Friends better now. I'll buy a loaf sometimes and brighten up someone's day. I was raised to help people and find it enjoyable.

Kent.

[rigger]

There is no doubt that the rich can be as bad as the poor, this is another issue altogether I feel.

Yes some people can choose to be in a jobless situation, Im not referring to a bad situation. But not all are the same. We have created a complex society which some people can struggle to adjust to. Some people aren't equipped for it. Some have had some bad luck and need time to find their feet. Those people need the opportunity to be supported minimally while they adjust. I am glad the service is there for them.

Others who choose joblessness do so because they can. They are the ones who drain the welfare and charity systems the most. They clearly have enough understanding to maximize the funds they get and do so outrageously. They are also the last people who want to give back to anyone or anything in any shape or form. They will always use and abuse every resource available due to their own greed and entitlement and they will proudly instill their values on their children.

I understand your point also Kent, I just feel these people ruin charity and welfare by having no morals and taking anything they can. they would take the last loaf of bread over a person with a true need because they would feel they deserved it (after trampling every one in front of them to get it)

NoisyTurtle, I respect your opinion and wish I could share it. The term a bad situation is a very broad and not really confined to just the examples of poverty or joblessness. Your example of someone who is ill equipped to remove themselves from a bad situation is a good example of no choice. I wish I truly believed every wrong or bad situation that was ever created was due to someone being ill equipped to see or understand it was wrong. eg. A man rather than go through a divorce kills his wife. A bad situation. Did the man find himself in a bad situation because he was ill equipped/unable to deal with jealousy, anger or greed or did he choose the bad situation because he did not want to deal with jealousy, anger or greed. Both are plausible.

Btw, all just my opinion

Edited August 26, 2014 by rigger

[rigger]

anyway getting to the bones of the issue, It is understood bad is not confined to any particular group and dishonesty is rife in many situations.

Charity and welfare involves people in need so abuse of these systems should be taken very seriously imo. Im not talking about the guy who makes a bit of cash on top of his newstart. Nor the guy who has trouble fitting into the mold our society has cast for him. I think people should stand against the abuse more to protect those in need and help genuine charity flourish.

Jox, no need to apologize for your comments, few of us here are professional writers or professional analysts. Not every comment is meant to represent the situation as a whole and if it is misleading because of that people can present other sides. It is very hard to convey our feelings through text just as it is hard to interpret a comments true intent.

[noisyturtle]

In some popular forms of philosophy such as the 'I-Ching' (where karma came from and was mistranslated) talk about the person in the fundamental sense only as an observer. This means that your actions and reactions are of no control of you and that everything that happens can be considered pre-determined. Even this comment. It's also related very heavily to a debate that is suppressed in common AI discussion. This philosophy would indicate that the only difference between one's self and a calculator is the level of intricacy and of course the difference between hardware and wetware. However the religious institutions argue morality and the scientific community (which in allot of ways barely differs these days) argues that it might not be possible. Think about it. All your "supposed" decisions are made by referring to the sum total of experience you have at your disposal. Depending on each experiences relevance to the situation depends on what degree it is used. This is exactly how a computer operates however we have not yet created an intricate algorithm in which computers can upgrade themselves depending on the situation.

Most people have troubles even coming to terms with the reasons for their own behavior rather than to have the ability to judge another's. To have an emotion based opinion about the behaviors of others or even yourself for that matter is impractical. But if your going to have any opinion at least make it one of empathy. This empathy for people and apathy for systems or situations is to me a perfect philosophy to add to that of the I-Ching.

This may be more suited to a philosophy thread however i feel it fits perfectly as a reply for every post made in this thread.

[rigger]

edit for long windedness!

I agree Turtle. In terms of the brain and its operation our actions and responses are limited to what we have to work with. but there is still many unknowns. Like a computer can only function within its set parameters or self learn within a certain set of variables we believe our thinking operates similarly. but how do we know if a person doesn't have set exposure or programing to deal with a situation and picks a poor decision knowingly. How do we know if choosing what is considered a bad or immoral response or action is a choice or is due to another factor in the brain which cannot be controlled?

It amazing how difficult it is to understand the working of the mind. but I think we would be short changing some people by just always being empathetic for every situation. Sometimes it is doing the right thing by an individual by not accepting they no control over their actions or responses.

Sometimes we don't always treat the people we love the way we want. Should we accept that because this happens it must be the way we are programed or should we have risen above that comment, behavior or action because we knew it was the wrong choice? we have the programming to know how we want to treat people. sometimes we use it others we don't. Is it a choice? Sometimes I beleive it is.

Thanks for your thoughts and the philosophy they are based. Im not giving my opinion because I think it's right or should be heard but as a way to hear others and participate to help my own understanding of thoughts and views.

Edited September 2, 2014 by rigger

[nothinghead]

Gina Rhinehart is worth 17.7billion and increasing, off the back of workers and common wealth of the land.

Anthony Pratt's wealth stands at around 7b, they reckon, also made off the backs of workers in polluting and primary resource intensive manufacturing.

James Packer, 6.6billion running casinos and supplying vulnerable aussies with false hope for a cut of their pay packet.

Ivan Glasenberg made 6.3 billion in the mining game, Andrew Forrest, 5b.

The five wealthiest Australians have their wealth stack up to $42.6 billion, that we know of. Australia's spending on umemployment payments landed at 90 billion in 2011-12, so roughly only double the worth of these FIVE people. Over 60 billion of these payments went to the elderly, and to families and children. Australia's GDP is around 1.5 trillion. Why the fuck are people so antsy about some people living on the lowest end of the social scale possibly "scamming" dole payments? If you're worried about where your taxpayer dollars are going, at least have a look at how they're being spent - social welfare is not a priority in Australia, and with the conservative government that thinks poor people deserve the worst in life, its only going to get worse.

Instead of whinging about so-called dole bludgers, get off your own arse and make a racket about the ridiculous tax cuts and benefits the super-rich in this country enjoy. Or about the places money is being spent. It's easy to kick down on already disadvantaged people, give the ones enforcing and fostering the division in wealth a go, otherwise you might one day find yourself in the unfortunate position of having to be on the dole (if it still exists) yourself.

[rigger]

yes the rich could solve many problems and suffering in the world with minimal expense to their extravagant lifestyle.

Don't ever assume some ones history or background spitting hate about others not knowing unfortunate positions in life. You may find you have less experience in those situations than the ones you judge. This could prove embarrassing.

Not every case is the same. Some need all the assistance they can get. Some need a bit assistance for a period. After that many are being done no favors to have certain behaviors enabled for too long. Making a habit of anything can make a bad situation worse. Consider every side. In some cases you may think you are doing the right thing when your actually ruining some ones life and enabling their bad situation to continue.

Since you also believe that the immoral behavior and scamming is ok you should be fine when it happens to you. Ignoring bad behavior because someone else does it worse isn't the best argument in all cases either. So I guess if someone burns your house down is ok for me to run inside an loot it? after all it's not as bad as whoever burnt it down right? What great societies and attitudes we could create.

Maybe if someone you cared about was or was with someone like this. they lose a job and get on the dole for a period until they get there feet back. But then after a year or so rather than get another job they start to think of more scams to enable them to stay on welfare. Their skill set and self esteem diminish and life opportunities are being cut short. why would you want that for someone who didn't have to be in that situation. especially for reasons such as "the rich are worse"

It almost seems like the attitudes that make the rich and corrupt you speak of.

anyway im out It was cool to hear different perspectives but now I feel I am making this out to mean more to me than it does.

Edited September 2, 2014 by rigger

[teonanacatl]

I had this idea today, imagine if the mining companies in Australia were run by the people of Australia for the people of Australia! What a ridiculous idea! Marxism!

Everything is overinflated in our society because its made cheaply in third world countries that underpay workers. You can see this when the cost of making something is more expensive then buying it already made. Global minimum wage would sort that out but then if everything was at its actual value people couldnt own so much shit- what a tragedy!

[Darklight]

Ah rigger, you're a conundrum, glad you're here. I still think your comments about welfare recipients generally suck tho. It's like comparing all people who drink alcohol to the very visible and off-planet alcoholic singing loudly on the corner and swigging metho from a brown paper bag. Personally I think you're over-extrapolating based on a limited sample of very visible, highly unpleasant people. Unpleasant people, IMO are evenly distributed between all social groups.

There have been a lot of layoffs in my rural region recently, and it's hit the locals hard. I'm hearing regular horror stories of people waiting months to get benefits. In most cases they get back pay from Centrelink- if they put the hours in shuffling back and forth 100km to the only regional Centrelink. 8-16 weeks seems to be the norm. This is, of course, time that would better be spent looking for work. Only if you're dead broke and can't pay the rent, and have Centrelink staff telling you this is the absolute last visit you'll need to make and your problem will be solved ( it never is )- guess what takes priority? People are told their problem will be solved, so they put the effort into what they are told is the final hurdle. Only it's a joke, it rarely is.

So next week, instead of approaching new opportunities with a clear head, they're in permanent trepidation about paying their rent, hoping Centrelink don't fuck up again, hoping their bank account is back paid for the last 3 months. Inbetween Centrelink harassment sessions they can put their heads over the parapet and seek new opportunities. If they haven't had their phone and internet cut off in the meantime

Is almost like Centrelink are prepared to fuck people around a lot so they don't take up benefits, and absorb the excess admin time they need to spend on appeals as a cost saving measure. All the work I've seen hard working locals put off by the timber industry and the university and the govt put in to getting on benefits they are well entitled to while they seek new work is a pathetic waste of time

This is encouraging rorts, not discourging them. Centrelink condition people at all levels to be wary of them, to not provide them with any information they can routinely fuck up and deny you income support, and by doing that the terms of such support start to get very rubbery indeed. And by not doing that, you're technically a criminal, and Tony Abbott gets to make up some more juicy headlines and whisper them into the echo chamber of the media

One local yesterday, laid off as a casual after a number of years at a local factory, and a hard working bloke of 50+ years who has never been unemployed, told me it took 10 weeks of intensive paperwork and hassle to get benefits. Can you live without income for 10 weeks? Could you do it if your employer suddenly changed the conditions of your employment without notice? He told me this fuckaround is standard and he's hearing it from former colleagues as well. I asked a bloke I know who works for one of the employment agencies about this and he shook his head and said " You won't believe the horror stories I hear, that's nothing, they're malevolent at Centrelink " and proceeded to tell me a few. They're routine, apparently, he hears 8-12 a day

Centrelink is a vicious circle. It is almost impossible to get onto benefits. It's not 'easy' money as some people say. And by the time you've spent a couple of hundred hours trying to work out what the fuck is acceptable to them and will keep them off your back so you can put your full attention to finding work, or caring for your disabled kid, or getting to the specialist or whatever.. feh, it's almost like you've done a full TAFE course. Most people would rather have put the hours into something actually productive.

That experiment where pigeons were given food only after pressing the feed button a random number of times springs to mind.

I wish I could be more succinct.

[rigger]

Ok back in again, story of my life!

First I want to say my last post was a bit too emotional so sorry if it brought down the discussion for anyone. I actually agree with everything raketemensch is saying, I just don't want my comments to be interpreted as placing people receiving welfare to be worse than the rich and corrupt.

Darklight I agree My first post was based on a limited sample of highly unpleasant people. I don't know why I initially started at that point but the great thing about a discussion is once the surface is scratched you can get into peoples true feelings and interesting opinions.

Centerlink is a massive headache. It is so difficult for everyday down and out people to use. So much red tape and it only hurts the legitimate cases. no one in their situation should have to put up with that. It is in a lot of cases and ways harder than working and much of your time is taken up in lines filling out forms on the phone, stupid workshops etc rather than something that betters the situation. It has been covered really well so I just want to put 4 examples of recipients I have seen which may clarify my feelings

1- majority. Genuine cases that centerlink just kills their time for little to no money. makes everything difficult and is not productive to their situation whatsoever. I have found myself here a few times also.

2- A family member. welfare for 34 years. I 100% agree this person cannot hold down a job. While not technically diagnosed with anything you only need to meet them to know they cant work. I don't want to see this person out on the street I am glad for what they get and don't want it taken away.

3- A family member. welfare 25 years. This is a bit sad. This person is very intelligent, capable, passionate and educated. They have a family and the eldest child is now also unemployed for a few years. They don't want to work because of various reasons but a bit strange most of them. I would love to see this person get a kick up the arse. If it doesn't work fine but give it a shot. They could be successful and happy in their chosen career. I think this person would thrive having a bit of independence from the system.

4- Minority. My initial post. Unfortunately I have found myself here also. Many years ago when I was younger I had some unfortunate things happen and ended up with the wrong crowd. They could get more out of centerlink than I could ever imagine. Skipping from town to town they would stay with likeminded connections from all over. They would rob houses, open garages, steal identities come out of shops with their pockets stuffed even dinner was top shelf steak straight down the pants from Safeway. Occasionally they would take tents and break into camping grounds to do a bit of cash in hand season work in the area. They would leave behind all sorts of rubbish and drug paraphernalia. These people never went without and were always talking about the next scam and were genuinely proud of their lifestyle.

The tipping point for me was when 3 of us hitched a ride. in the front one was chatting to the driver like I had never seen before, engaged, happy and almost charming. we got out of the car and he looked at me an smiled and said about the nice person" that stupid up herself bitch actually though I wanted her!" as he flashed the purse he stole while we traveled. "see how I engaged her, see was to busy thinking se was going to get some so I could steal it" (completely untrue it was just a nice person and I was really enjoying her company) Well I felt sick to my stomach, as he took what he wanted and threw the rest in the river. That next night I took the next bus out of there. I hated everything we did the whole time but it seemed like a family to me. They noticed my limited participation and tried to get me in other ways. I had to drive them round in the cars they stole, whenever it was a bad time or sit out the front in the stolen car while they were knocking off houses.

After a few years when I was back on my feet I sent cash to businesses I remember them entering and knocking off with an apology note. Even 15 years late I still feel sick thinking about it and that was probably why it sticks in my mind a bit.

I do not mean to imply these sorts of people are just limited to a select group of the population or everyone or even many are like that but that was those people were my aim initially. I think everyone has covered the topic really well and thoroughly. Its great to hear all opinions and a good reminder for me that sometimes speaking of a bad experience can make your opinions seem to be speaking of a group as a whole.

Edited September 3, 2014 by rigger

[rigger]

Sorry but I want to touch on my experience with point 3 of my last post as this is the most important to me.

After my bad experience with point 4 I managed to get into a program for disadvantaged youth which at the end of the course resulted in a traineeship for me. 6 months in I suffered a loss which was tragic for me. I added alcohol to my pot smoking and I felt it helped me continue. 4 years later my addictions had grown to include most things and were taking their toll. I could see the it coming so I was saving my holidays so I could have some money to quit before I got on centerlink, 6 weeks I think after quitting a job.

I was on walfare for almost 2 years. I did some courses here and there but mainly to get them off my back. living in share accommodation with similar users enabled me to get pretty hammered all the time. My confidence was getting lower and I just couldn't see the point of getting a crap job that I knew I couldn't last at. The only thing that had improved was my ability to fill out forms and do drugs.

Sick of having no money, independence and wasting all my time on welfare forms I decided to get a shit job unloading containers for $14 dollars an hour. In the first week I felt I had new life in me. I was actually enjoying it and the people I worked with (sometimes!) I started to drink less on week nights and considering what I was like cleaned up a lot.

I started to see positions I would like to do and over the next 5 years was promoted 5 times. Now I saved up enough to buy my own business and my life has never been better. If I hadn't of made that one step now I would either be homeless, overdosed or gassed myself in my car I have no doubt.

This is why I feel strongly about the people in point 3 of my last rant.

Edited September 3, 2014 by rigger

[Kent]

My opinion about current affairs shows is that some stories are beat-ups and they don't always present the facts. It's been said that the media doesn't let the truth get in the way of a good story. I don't watch them any more but a segment about getting young people jobs on a tropical island doesn't give me an opinion about them, it gives me one about the unenthusiastic jobseekers. Someone wanted to know what my point is. It started off with an interesting anecdote which bemused me, then led on to other experiences. I try to thrown in a bit of humour, such as lion-taming surfies. Maybe I've been around non-jobseekers too long. I try to balance what I say by acknowledging the problems of people who are genuine. At the age of 58 I was diagnosed with Aspergers Disorder which, apart from decades of depression, makes it hard to understand people. I found some of the posts here insightful. Rigger has turned his life around and his story alone would have made this topic worth starting. I wish him all the best.

Kent.