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I'm also interested in the different strengths of kratom... The "commercial grade", as some call it, is apparently from Indonesia (and it's wild harvested as well). I heard there is an even weaker batch out there somewhere which also is wild harvested, I guess it's mostly available as extract. I tried 5 grams of one particular extract, and the effect was about what would be expected of 5-7 grams of the "commercial leaves". The extract from “commercial grade” is said to be hard like glass, but this one was quite soft.

There seem to be a few different qualities of kratom on the market; these are the possible ones I've come up with:

* Kavamans/ Sieberts

* The Thai stuff (available from dutch vendors)

* "Commercial grade" (The Indonesian variety imported to the US by Cielo)

* “The weaker batch”, sold by British vendors, probably mostly as extract due to the low potency

* Basement Shamans “home grown”

This list may very well be incomplete, or even totally incorrect, any input is greatly appreciated *discretely turns head in Torsten’s direction*

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Originally posted by Idplugg:

The "commercial grade", as some call it, is apparently from Indonesia (and it's wild harvested as well).

I am not sure, but I thought the indonesian stuff came originally from Thailand and was just exported via indonesia. In any case, the whole concept of 'wild kratom' is puzzling and probably just an excuse for a weaker product. kratom is almost exclusively cultivated.

* Kavamans/ Sieberts

* The Thai stuff (available from dutch vendors)

* "Commercial grade" (The Indonesian variety imported to the US by Cielo)

* “The weaker batch”, sold by British vendors, probably mostly as extract due to the low potency

* Basement Shamans “home grown”

Basement shaman's is from the Rifat clone, so if would be interesting to see how this compares with other strains.

The weaker batch and the Cielo stuff both seem to come from Duncan in indonesia.

A few years ago when we did our first experiments with kratom I was very disappointed to find I had no activity at all in my material. We were at the time growing young plants in a hothouse in an effort to simulate thai rainforest conditions. As the plants got older we moved some of them outside and suddenly they became quite active. The towards winter they became even more potent - but not as nice. The increases in effect were measured in multiples, not just a few percent here or there which makes me think that kratom herb quality has a lot to do with the climatic conditions.

Since then we have found that stressed plants will be much more potent than pampered ones. The thicker and more leathery the leaf is the more potent it becomes.

I have friends in the tropics who have a plant and will be sampling some of theirs in the next few weeks. It will be interesting to see if the high temps along with full exposure will produce a potent but nice herb.

Claude Rifat did a lot of work with kratom on location in thailand many years before kratom was discussed in the west (even several years before I first became interested in it). I base much of my comparison on his reports. From this it appears that the kavaman stuff is well above the average material and that Duncan's stuff (from indonesia) is well below it. While we still haven't clarified where the Rifat clone fits into the scheme of things, I presume it will be between the two and I'd be happy with that.

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the comparison to salvia was also mentioned. We worked this out quite a few eyars ago. Salvia grown in australia is weak because the temps are too low, theere is too much rain and the material gets harvested too young. if you only harvest your plants once every 12 months, at the end of summer and preferably live in an area where the summers are not soaking wet and yet the temps are tropical, then your salvia will be of comparable quality to the mexican stuff. I arrived at the conclusions from research doen with friends in hawaii and various locations in australia. We hope to be able to conclude a similar project with kratom before the plants become illegal in 6 months.

Mexican salvia harvested in wet years is of very low potency too. The crop of the 98 la nina year was of dismal quality.

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quote:

We hope to be able to conclude a similar project with kratom before the plants become illegal in 6 months.

Am I missing something here? This is the 4th reference so far I have seen on this site claiming that Kratom will be illegal. The NDSPC have not yet posted their Feb meeting minutes on the web. What gives?

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sorry thelema - insider info

I've heard it from two people who both have contacts within the TGA.

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My own take on this, based on various things that I've read here and elsewhere, is that "old" "wild" Kratom seems to be the most potent.

First, regarding "wild" vs. "cultivated": "wild" Kratom might be more potent due to increased stress likely encountered in its natural habitat; as Torsten mentions above, stress seems to increase potency. In contrast, "cultivated" Kratom is more likely to be well taken care of - thus less stress, resulting in a less potent product.

Second, age might be a factor for similar reasons: "old" Kratom trees will have been exposed to more stress over their lifetime than "young" trees.

According to Kavaman, his Kratom is harvested from "wild" trees that are over 20 years old. This single data point supports the "old & wild" theory, but additional data from other sources is needed.

Additionally, there was an interesting article published just last month (K. Matsumoto et al. / Life Sciences 74 (2004) 2143–2155) that talks about the discovery of a new compound, 7-hydroxymitragynine, that is a minor constituent among Kratom alkaloids. This compound occurs naturally in the leaf, at low levels, but it is very potent - stronger than morphine.

My hypothesis (you heard it from me first!) is that this compound may be responsible for the differences in potency among Kratom leaf sources. I.e., perhaps "old" "stressed" plants (such as, presumably, Kavaman's) produce more 7-hydroxymitragynine than "gently cultivated" plants.

If its not too expensive, I'd like to perform (or pay someone to perform) a complete chemical analysis of Kavaman's Kratom (once I get it), along with samples of some other sources.

Mike, aka, Mr. Kratom

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A question:

Some of you folks seem to know a lot about Kratom sources. Now, I'm already "hooked up" with Kavaman for wholesale quantities, but I wouldn't mind finding other sources (minus the middleman), even for lower grade stuff.

Any contacts?

Thanks,

Mike, aka, Mr. Kratom

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Mr. Kratom:

...

Additionally, there was an interesting article published just last month (K. Matsumoto et al. / Life Sciences 74 (2004) 2143–2155) that talks about the discovery of a new compound, 7-hydroxymitragynine, that is a minor constituent among Kratom alkaloids.  This compound occurs naturally in the leaf, at low levels, but it is very potent - stronger than morphine.

...

By the way, if anyone is interested in this article, let me know via e-mail - I've already purchased a copy.

Mike

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Does anyone know the actual origin of Kavamans kratom? Could it be that the "Thai kratom" from dutch vendors and Kavamans is the same? I have yet to try Kavaman's, but I sampled a tiny amount of the Dutch stuff (if I wasn't ripped off, which may have been the case!) From what I have read about doses, Kavaman's kratom sounds to be even more potent.

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ad a artical on growing good ole mary jane n it said that plants grown in higher humidity had less potent leaves then ones grown in dry climate, i think it was leaves grown in dry were smaller therefore more THC/g where as ones grown in humitity were larger therefore less THC/g, this could be the same with sally. do salvia flowers contain the same chemicals as leaves?

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