johnboy Posted April 27, 2004 what known effects are there form smoking khat (Strain 4)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smogs Posted April 28, 2004 why you would u want to smoke a herb and bugegr up your lungs when you can chew or eat with good effects is beyond me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted April 28, 2004 smoking good material, does work,...hmm to a certain degree. "not worth the lungs, as said above". but oral fresh chewed leaves, are the most prefered! naturaly we grow catha edulis only as a rare show and illustrative specimen. :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gomaos Posted April 29, 2004 coughing was the only effect I got when i tried smoking it... I tried only once then gave up, it just tasted to gross... disgusting actually... [ 28. April 2004, 22:42: Message edited by: gomaos ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted April 29, 2004 The point is that there are at least two active constituents, the stronger of which is VERY heat sensitive. So by smoking it you would eliminate the good one and be left with the weak one. Doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted April 29, 2004 The agarofuran alkaloids are unlikely to survive smoking either. Smoking a ketonic amine? What a wonderful spectrum of noxious chemicals that would produce. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip Posted May 1, 2004 once again, why some people have a fixation upon smoking is beyond all sense of reason... sigh.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted May 4, 2004 Because it is rapid, requires a low dose with fewer side-effects and with some herbs extremely pleasurable? Smoking (including vapourisation of course) is one of the tools of the herbalist, as are snorting and injection, though those should be used with vastly more care. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stonehenge Posted May 4, 2004 No injection for me, no way, no how, never! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnboy Posted May 6, 2004 Don't hold back! I'm not a dope head, but I do know that smoking requires a smaller dose, ellicits a quicker physiological response, and often tastes better. I smoked some on its own, and got a significant body relaxation comparable to drunkeness, but with a clear head. Similar to that which I was told to expect from chewing it by a forum member. I also smoked some after some C Sativa, and it really made me feel totaly 'straight' in the head. I gave some to some dope smokers who will now try to procure some of the same, because of its friendler stigma. This was strain 4 btw. thanks for the input, however contradictory! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip Posted May 6, 2004 I propose that you try smoking something inactive as a comparison.... same set and setting. you may find that the effects of carbon monoxide and all the other things that are created with combustion may also affect you. Oh, check out the effects of mild carbon monoxide posoning via inhalation... Don't forget you we're expecting something.... the mind can influence your subjective attributions. Since you went ahead and disregarded the information provided to you (above). [ 06. May 2004, 15:29: Message edited by: Flip ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted May 7, 2004 You ignored the OPINIONS of #sigh# flip and others but the two pieces of real INFORMATION from people who had tried it, as opposed to prejudice and hypothesis, were 1) planthelper: "smoking good material does work ,... hmm to a certain degree." 2) gomaos: "I tried only once then gave up, it just tasted to gross... disgusting actually" One positive and one negative makes for a REASONABLE basis for hypothesis. But now we have two positives, planthelper and johnboy, still with only one negative. To continue with flip's course on Experimental Design 101, we now have to think through the possible explantations of the results so far before designing the next experiment. Hypotheses: 1) CO2, CO and a range of chemicals produced by burning could have the same effect. 2) Cathinone is sufficiently stable while being boiled that some survives as vapour. While unstable for storage the time that passes in smoking is very short. The effect could be very strong as inhaling the vapours of freebase amphetamines is reported as having powerful effects for small doses. 3) Cathine and the other relatives are also amphetamine relatives and will have a potent effect for their dose. 4) The agarofuran alkaloids are more volatile than I would expect. 5) As johnboy has reported that the effect is "significant body relaxation" we might suppose that the agarofuran alkaloids may break down into other derivatives of the agarofurans. Chen xiang gave one of its names to the agarofurans and is used in TCM for sedation. 6) The placebo effect, especially potent in Americans who are genetically and culturally disposed to be more gullible. Oh dear I am suddenly busy, can anyone think of other hypotheses? Now I would like people to tell me how we can adjust the experiment to distinguish between these possibilities. Remember science is not contradictory. Because it is a process, constantly developing and testing hypotheses against experimental observations the state of knowledge in different parts of the same science may appear contadictory. [ 06. May 2004, 21:58: Message edited by: theobromos ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John_Barleycorn Posted May 9, 2004 The CO poisoning hypthesis could be tested by vapourising instead of smoking, as you kind of suggested. A bit of Na2CO3 (washing soda) in with the pulverised leaf could very well help matters. Call me demanding, but I tend to think that any smoking tests that involve MJ are invalidated from the word go! My general experience is that only relatively potent substances work well with smoking (eg, MJ, powders, etc, but not opium, lily, passiflora, etc). The rest of the time, you're better off eating, and that includes the vast majority of unprocessed herbs. Extracts can be a different story, but extracting khat (successfully) is unfortunately one of the trickier things to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted May 9, 2004 Right, vapourising will test the "just smoke" hypothesis. For full scientific tests there should be a group who smoke pure cellulose. ¿Any volunteers? I love excess CO2 and too little CO2. Part of the reason for the breathing techniques of yoga is to produce high CO2 levels in the lungs and produce tranquillity and visions (or narcosis and hallucinations if you prefer ). Not all tests involving MJ would be invalidated, the stimulant effect could be measured by how long someone could stay awake after eating an ounce of skunk chocolate (where legal and available ). This is a technique often used in animal research but the results have to be interpreted very carefully. In this case all we could say is that there is a stimulant effect (or not) so validating 2,3 or 4 (or not). 6, the placebo effect, might still be valid if the stimulant effect is not felt by more than the control group of the guinea pigs who have only eaten the chocolate and are quite naturally rather excited. Control groups should be used for all tests. Freebasing by adding Na2CO3 or NaHCO3 would indeed make the vapours more likely to be of simple composition. However they would add to the CO2 produced. This could be avoided by very careful addition of NaOH instead. The agarofuran breakdown might be tested by acidifying the herb so that the alkaloids are less volatile but this is not perfect as local production of ammonia and other alkali compounds might release the alkaloid from its salt. As in the case of cocaine which can be smoked as the salt, though not as effective as freebase. While the cathinone is not easy to extract without decomposition the other parts of the herb could be separated and the agarofuran alkaloids and PEAS tested separately. Also some old herb that has lost its cathinone could be tested. Please don't confuse "extracting khat" with "extracting cathinone", they are not the same. John Barleycorn, do you not think opium is potent? Try hotknives errr, where legal, clearly. [ 08. May 2004, 22:28: Message edited by: theobromos ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted May 9, 2004 Like Catha edulis leaves, Celastrus paniculatis seed oil can be successfully smoked. An MD friend from South Africa told me he found the effects of chewed khat leaves to be identical with that of Celastrus paniculatus seed oil placed under the tongue. Both being members of the Celastraceae led me to investigate further and find that there are several other members of the family that are used for similar purposes. Maytenus ebenifolia (chuchuasi) is used during the week of fasting before an Ayahuasca experience to give one strength, diminish appetite and clear the head. A tea is produced by boiling the crushed bark for some time. Likewise M. canariensis is similarly used in the Canary islands, but not as an adjunct to Ayahuasca. An Italian company is now marketing extracted Maytenine for the same cognitive enhancement purposes as I sell Cognitol (Celastrus paniculatus seed oil). I would not be surprised to find other similarly active species in this family. (hint hint) [ 09. May 2004, 03:06: Message edited by: friendly ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stonehenge Posted May 9, 2004 theo, I have to object to this little piece of slander: >6) The placebo effect, especially potent in Americans who are genetically and culturally disposed to be more gullible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John_Barleycorn Posted May 10, 2004 theobromos:Please don't confuse "extracting khat" with "extracting cathinone", they are not the same. Right, good point. An ethanolic plant extract, dried out and then mixed with a bit of powdered washing soda, would probably be the way to go re smoking. Wish my damn plants would kick in and do some growing so I could test this! I'm not so sure about using hydroxide for alkalinity, on account of the potential cathinone polymer formation. theobromos:John Barleycorn, do you not think opium is potent? Try hotknives errr, where legal, clearly. Well, a FOAF has grown plenty of the Tasmanian strain, which is reputedly as strong as it gets. Eaten, this stuff has all the expected effects, to the extent of pinning, nods, etc, not to mention a weekend's worth of scratching combined with nausea . Vapourising by comparison seems to be a bit of a waste of time. Dunno about smoking (as in combustion).Speaking of which, back on the khat topic, one potent smoking plant I failed to mention is tobacco. When testing the effects of smoking mild stimulants, it is bound to be a bit of an invalidator. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted May 11, 2004 Wow, friendly that one I wouldn't have thought of. Someone has smoked celastrus? Well that is a piece of evidence that supports the hypotheses 4 and 5. Perhaps someone will be brave enough to make a comparison Good point about the formation of the dimer of cathinone by the sodium hydroxide treatment. The only way to test the activity of cathinone effectively would be to synthesise it, I suppose. Probably illegal in most parts so lets try to think our way through that. Stonehenge, sorry to be offensive but I do believe it. You mean libel not slander as I have written it not spoken it. It is a long time since I saw the report that showed that Americans had 45% placebo effect compared to 35% for Europeans and I have no memories that will help search for the paper. But the general gullibility of Americans cannot be controversial surely? I only have to say one word. On planets where legal: Never burn opium, chase it off foil or from an opium pipe if it is the real deal. If it is homemade and sugary (matique), then hotknife vapourisation will be the most effective. Never confuse this with wimpy vapourisers like that shean shayannnnee git makes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted May 11, 2004 Another variable is the variety of khat, if it is that the agarofurans are responsible. According to the studies reviewed in the link below there a wide range of cathedulins, of which I would suggest that only the smaller would be likely to be easily vapourised. Perhaps just cathedulin E8, in which the agarofuran only has five alcohol groups (as opposed to the 9 of the medium-size alkaloids and the much more complex big alkaloids). An Ethiopian khat showed the presence of E8 but a Kenyan variety did not. http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/bulletin/bul..._3_page004.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted May 11, 2004 I have successfully pyrolitically bio-assayed Celastrus oil by putting it on a smokable base material. I imagine vaporizing/hot knifing would work equally well if not better, but never got around to it (so many herbs; so little time). Celastrus paniculatus seed oil is also rich in newly discovered agarofurans, some 11 or 12 at last count. [ 11. May 2004, 04:21: Message edited by: friendly ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stonehenge Posted May 11, 2004 theo, I would have thought a simple apology would have been the end of it but you persist in your remarks. I can only assume you think others are very gullible and will believe what you say. I don't know what your problem is with the usa, perhaps politics. I don't agree with much of Bush's politics myself but don't try to tell me your prejudice is scientific. I expect to see proof of what you say or a retraction. Explaining that it was a joke will work also. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted May 11, 2004 theo, friendly & J. Barleycorn---you've totally nailed this topic---excellent work. & theo--- i think stoney deserves abit ov proof---i agree that americans seem gullible(putting it nicely?), but you make a bold statement that needs some backing up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gomaos Posted May 11, 2004 I hope you can sort out your differences... I'm more interested in that one: Please don't confuse "extracting khat" with "extracting cathinone", they are not the same. hmmmmm, methcathinone... apparently it can be made from khat... wouldn't that be nice... An ethanolic plant extract, dried out and then mixed with a bit of powdered washing soda, would probably be the way to go re smoking I might give that a go... sounds interesting... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
