Mitragyna speciosa Flowering Stage of Development

[dax]

very nice :D

hey bijanto what part of the world do you live in?

[-bijanto-]

very nice :D

hey bijanto what part of the world do you live in?

I live in Java, Indonesia. As far as I know, Mitragyna speciosa has never been found anywhere around here, but I guess you can find it in Sumatra Island as it shares its border with Malaysia. There must be wild Mitragyna javanica somewhere in Java but I haven't been able to locate it. Mitragyna parvifolia is cultivated in Bogor Botanical Garden.

[-bijanto-]

Hi all,

Here's a pict taken from murple's article on Iamshaman:

One of those 2 pods (shown on top of the pict) looks exactly like mine at the moment, with holes on the surface but has turned brown and dried now (still hanging on the tree).

The one shown at the bottom of the pict looks totally different, it looks more developed, which I havent seen yet in my plant so far. So I guess it could be the more developed form of seed pod, which could happen to my pods anytime later, but the heavy rainfall (almost everyday now) could destroy them as well.

Should I pick the pod now, or later?

I asked murple about his pict, he said he doesnt know if those pods he has are mature. He found them in a bag of kratom, so they couldve been picked before maturity. He said that most likely if you have a pod that has turned brown and dried, if you open it up it will contain mature seeds.

[Darklight]

So, this is a Christmas present for both of you. These pictures are yours.

Thanks bijanto, that is very sweet of you

Maybe you two can publish your kratom cultivation guide someday.

What, me? Whole plants in the ground? I kill whole plants in the ground. Now plants in a test tube is another matter, I only kill them sometimes

Please know that once you open the seed pods, the things that look like seed are in fact smaller seed capsules, containing several individual seed. That was our main problem when we were starting TC, we didn't know this until T took some away and opened them. If you have enough, sacrifice one of the 'seeds' and check them under a microscope til you get the smallest possible reproductive unit.

If you don't get the seeds separated from the inner capsule they will have a much harder time germinating, and they're not viable for long as it is

Re the cultivation thing, we were planning to publish the formula in the Ethnobotanica journal, but unfortunately we seriously lack the funds to publish even the first edition and its long overdue. I'm seriously thinking of selling an advance copy of the protocol 12 months prior to the paper's publication ( with full techie support from our lab ) and using the funds to publish the first journal edition

We've had a lot of ppl asking for the TC formula and not a few demanding it as though it was some kind of right. It would be interesting to see whether the people planning to make money from Mitragyna would be willing to show their appreciation of the work we have done, put their money where their mouths are and cough up the $2K we need to print the first Ethnobotanica

12 months technical support and a pre-publication copy of the paper would potentially offer a significant lead and advantage over others planning to mass propagate- you could produce 100 000 tissue culture plants in that time and be well ahead of the competition by the time the paper went to print for general release.

I'm still mulling this decision over, not certain how it would be received or whether it'd be a waste of time. From experience most people who demand things like this can't be fucked understanding that what they're really asking for is the result of someone else's efforts, and if they're planning to make money from their own efforts then its simply fair that they should offer recompense of some kind for efforts that assist them with the process. Others are simply content to wait for the paper to be published, which is fair enough as long as they don't mind the wait

And such a decision would also require T's permission, but from memory he OK'd it? Mitragyna was our first species we had developed a protocol for when we were starting up, and one of the inducements I used to secure SAB as a client for Mitragyna was that Torsten would retain ownership of the data for that species.

[-bijanto-]

SEED POD

OK Darklight, I'm sacrificing one seed pod for the sake of science

Here's the original seed pod, having diameter of 0.8 cm.

Now, from the above pod, I break it off into several parts: A, B, and C (see below):

#B is the shape of the pod after I pulled out some parts of its outer structures, imagine pulling out someone's hairs until you see a partly-bald head.

#A and #C are the tiny 'hairs' that were pulled out from the head. As they are different in shape, I separate them to make it easier to identify.

Which one is the capsule: A or C?

[Evil Genius]

Very Interesting. I thought the outer capsule would be the only one. I guess this was just another one of my basic problems during my first tries.I´d love to buy one copy of the first journal edition, Darklight.Just in case you choose to sell them. I´ll start working on TC this month. I´ll also try to cultivate Mitragyna and maybe some orchids for the start . The Journal sounds like a very valuable guide to me. I have books on the topic but they are not up to date nor do they contain infos on mitragynas.I don´t plan to sell this species as i don´t want it to get listed around here.

Thank you bijanto, your pics are killing me again. I´ve never opened the outer capsule.

[-bijanto-]

What, me? Whole plants in the ground? I kill whole plants in the ground. Now plants in a test tube is another matter, I only kill them sometimes

Well, so you do the tube part and I do the ground part, how's that mate?

No matter what, you're very lucky to have access to a TC lab and so on... I don't even have a microscope

But I'm lucky to have this rake and a hoe and piece of fertile ground. So we're both are very lucky, no? :D

[-bijanto-]

I´ll start working on TC this month. I´ll also try to cultivate Mitragyna and maybe some orchids for the start.

Good luck, I love orchids too (especially phalaenopsis). I've heard that some people use coconut water as a medium in TC.

[Evil Genius]

Yeah thanks, i read that in an orchid board too. I´ll try using different medias containg agar and other stuff. I don´t know well about the influence of the media on the grwoth rates yet. I´ll see.

[Darklight]

But I'm lucky to have this rake and a hoe and piece of fertile ground. So we're both are very lucky, no?

That's exactly the attitude I like

Shame you don't have a microscope tho, you need magnification to do the dissecting work. Can you get one-a them handheld ones botanists use in the field? The pocket ones? Even that might help.

I'll look more closely at the seed pics when I'm more awake. I'd try to pull both A & C down into smaller units- the seed are REALLY tiny.

EG start with orchids and learn the tek, then learn it again. It's sooo easy to overcommit at this early stage and things go wrong and ppl get disillusioned. IMO that's THE biggest reason more people aren't doing TC

Things go wrong even for ppl with heapsa experience too, that's the nautre of the work. There are a thousand tiny things you need to remember and execute in controlled sequence. The difference between the beginner and the experienced is only that the more experienced person will prolly have a better idea than the beginner where it went wrong, making success more likely next time. But not definite. And the experienced person panics just as much

Tip: don't run more than three experiments at once when you're starting, especially if it isn't your full time job. Otherwise you'll go crazy. It's a few hours to set each experiment up and run it. But don't be tempted yet to simply assume that the blank periods inbetween are dead time. Like sailing, it's weeks of boredom punctuated by random minutes of total panic. Two weeks on and sudddenly something happens- contamination, growth, mutation- and you need to know why right at the exact minute, have time to drop everything and research and plan your next move and lab run real fast. It's so easy to fall over yourself at these times and waste valuable genetic material

[Torsten]

'A' is the capsule, but they don't look well formed. Please open one up and take a pic of the contents. The seeds are ultra thin (somewhat transparent) slivers with a brown dot in the middle. Seed is 5-10mm long and 2mm wide. Dot is about 1mm round. There should be several slivers in each pod.

[-bijanto-]

'A' is the capsule, but they don't look well formed. Please open one up and take a pic of the contents. The seeds are ultra thin (somewhat transparent) slivers with a brown dot in the middle. Seed is 5-10mm long and 2mm wide. Dot is about 1mm round. There should be several slivers in each pod.

Each "A" capsule only measure up to 4 mm long and 1.5 mm wide. I tried to open one capsule with a small cutter but there is no such sliver. I guess you're right, they might haven't developed yet. I'll wrap the other pods left on the tree with transparent plastic so I won't lose them when it's time for them to drop.

[Torsten]

pantyhose is better so the seeds don't rot

[-bijanto-]

pantyhose is better so the seeds don't rot

[Stonehenge]

I agree with Torsten, some sort of mesh would be much better than plastic. You don't want to cut off air flow. Take another look at the inside of the capsule, seeds may be stuck to the inside lining. Then again, that capsule may not have been fertilized. It doesn't mean none of them will have seeds.

[-bijanto-]

I agree with Torsten, some sort of mesh would be much better than plastic. You don't want to cut off air flow. Take another look at the inside of the capsule, seeds may be stuck to the inside lining. Then again, that capsule may not have been fertilized. It doesn't mean none of them will have seeds.

I have seen some local farmers do with mangoes, starfruits etc to prevent them from pests like fruit flies, bats, birds etc: they wrap them with transparant plastic sheet. Just punch some tiny holes and you get your air. Thank's for the pantyhose idea, T, that's very creative. I was seeing some funny situation here - sorry I'm a private cartoonist, I couldn't help it Sorry it should go to the "Art & Creativity" but then it would become irrelevant without T's comment.

Cheers!

[Torsten]

that's hilarious!!

The majority of folks on theis forum are guys. Many of us have the same problems with our partners, such as drying smelly herbs in the bedroom, solvent stains in the bathroom, green/brown concoctions in the kitchen, various kitchen utensils/ pieces of clothing / hardware tools being used for things they shouldn't be. The pantyhose is a classic though

[planthelper]

awsome painting bijanto, you are a champ!!

in my trade we often used pantyhoses for filtering laquer and paint....

another application i have seen in botany is to secure and produce downward pressure on cacti grafts, the spines of the cacti poke through and as such secure the bottom...

tort told me the trick with the pantyhose in connection of catha edulis.

getting your hands on a pantyhose can be quite a challenge for single men though, so when i split up from my girlfriend, my last wish was, can i have some of your panties, lol.

anyway how tall is your kratty? as size might matter in this case and could be aiding indication as to other kratty's might flower soon aswell (sorry in case you mentioned already).

[-bijanto-]

awsome painting bijanto, you are a champ!!

in my trade we often used pantyhoses for filtering laquer and paint....

another application i have seen in botany is to secure and produce downward pressure on cacti grafts, the spines of the cacti poke through and as such secure the bottom...

tort told me the trick with the pantyhose in connection of catha edulis.

getting your hands on a pantyhose can be quite a challenge for single men though, so when i split up from my girlfriend, my last wish was, can i have some of your panties, lol.

anyway how tall is your kratty? as size might matter in this case and could be aiding indication as to other kratty's might flower soon aswell (sorry in case you mentioned already).

Wow that's inspiring, an elastic pantyhose that secures the grafting, filter, seed pod wrapping material. It's not easily found where I live because of the warm climate and thus pantyhose is seldom used, except in some special events, especially when women want to make their skin looks whiter.

Here's more use I got from google: Place old pantyhose inside small pots. Add potting soil. They allow water to get through but not the soil. It'll also make the repotting/transplanting easier.

My kratty is about 3 m tall (measured from the ground to the top leaves). The tree is "Y" shaped. The main trunk goes up to 1.70 m, with perimeter of 27 - 33 cm. From there, it splits into two secondary trunks, each of which has branches that grow to all direction.

[-bijanto-]

Here's an update on the kratom.

I've picked almost all of the brown pods from my kratom tree. I believe they were mature already, as I had waited for 4 months. Weird, there were no capsules except two, though I wrapped 2 of the pods with pantyhose.

Only from one of the unwrapped pods, I found 2 tiny capsules trying to get out of the holes, so I took them out and carefully opened with 2 fingernails on a piece of white paper. Inside the capsule were many smaller, almost invisible 'things' that I spread on the paper, but because they were so tiny and I didn't prepare anything, they soon disappeared into nowhere.

There are some other brown pods remain on the tree, those I watch occasionally, in a hope to find another lucky capsule half-ejected like previously, but I've seen nothing, only some undevelopped pods.

What could be wrong? That capsule might be a self-eject type capsule but why is there so rare to find the capsule. Are you supposed to find a capsule in each hole of the pod? After you pick a pod, can you force it to produce a capsule by let's say put it in a ziplock transparent plastic bag and dry it out under the sunlight? Those two seeds that I wrapped up with pantyhose-like cloth didn't produce any capsule at all.

I felt so stupid that I didn't equipped myself with magnifying glass, or any tools to capture and store the seeds.

I will post some pictures of the pods and the 2 capsules on the following Monday.

Edited April 1, 2006 by -bijanto-

[-bijanto-]

A bunch of ripe Mitragyna speciosa seed pods, one of them has 2 seed capsules still attached. On the background is the Mitragyna speciosa leaf (picture below):

A ripe Mitragyna speciosa seed pod, 2 seed capsules of which have been removed by hand. The other parts of the pod have also been removed but they are empty, either because the capsules have been ejected or still have not been developed. On the background is the Mitragyna speciosa leaf (picture below):

[-bijanto-]

If anyone has any picture of a mature kratom pod with actual capsules shown, please post it here.

I've been looking for a picture of the pod, but my best result is this. It's fom Wikipedia's article on Kratom written by Murple. The pods in this picture is totally different than mine, making me think that my pods might not develop into seeds, though they have attached to the twigs for about 4 months.

The seed capsules shown on his picture also look bigger than mine, at least when I compare them to Lincoln's nose shown on the coin.

Edited April 3, 2006 by -bijanto-

[Torsten]

first (crappy)pic is the capsules we got from Thailand years ago which grew the Rifat clone. Our seed heads looked very much like yours would if all holes had capsules in them.

The 2nd and 3rd pic are capsules of Craig's seed. I think his very fully mature, but a lesser number of fertilised capsules.

[Torsten]

The seed capsules shown on his picture also look bigger than mine, at least when I compare them to Lincoln's nose shown on the coin.

I think this is actually a flower bud from the 'mellow gold' fake kratom. I had one of those too.

[-bijanto-]

Thanks for the pics T,

I don't think I've seen the shapes like that before, not on my plant. Either:

a. I pick the heads too early or...

b. The pollination was not successful

Even those 2 capsules look different than yours.

I'll keep updating.