Pituri plants available later this year.

[Happy Cadaver]

http://www.exoticplants.com.au/

I've been keeping in touch with Adrian from Sydney Exotic Plants and he is madly propagating Duboisia hopwoodii for sale later in the year. He expects to have around 30 plants and estimates a $50 price tag. If you are interested, he's taking orders at the moment.

I believe they are sourced from north of Broken Hill.

He's also got PDF copies of a book on Pituri called 'This Precious Foliage' for people interested in the history of the species. Link is below.

http://www.exoticplants.com.au/reading.htm

I've already ordered mine

[Rev]

What Chemotype?

If its the wrong one its hardly worth the $50 price tag

[Happy Cadaver]

I can ask him, but he was dealing with a guy out there that uses it so it is probably the correct chemotype. There hasn't been (m)any studies to my knowledge on the different chemotypes, but regardless, it is a source of material that perhaps people like yourself can investigate. Pehaps you can enlighten us all Rev? There's some good research to be done here and Adrian isn't sitting in his chair and doing it, he's out there.

I've payed some crazy prices for plants before and don't even rate this one in regards to its availability.

There is always some danger that it might be a dangerous chemotype, but I thought that's what we are all here for?? Isn't that the essence of ethnobotany? Not to get given a drug or medicine on a plate or in a pill, but to sift through information and heresay (+ experience) and come to a scientific conclusion.

[Fractalhead]

I'm happy to analyse the mother plant by TLC if I someone can get me a sample. My days of testing Duboisia spp. chemotypes by bioassay are well and truly over after my myoporoides adventure

[Torsten]

I've already ordered two and don't mind the price tag. After all, NO ONE else is selling the plant and I've never been able to grow it from seed. One's own shortcomings often result in paying for them

After spending a couple of grand on my trip out west I am also not likely to sell our plants (if and when we get them) for anything less.

Ethnobotany isn't just about getting high, so collecting a toxic Duboisia hopwoodii that was used for hunting/fishing is just as important. However, after the discussion with Jumped Angel in the other thread I will be keen to sample the 'toxic' chemotype anyway.

Adrian (Sydney Exotics) seems to think that there are no chemotypes and that alkaloid variation is due to growing conditions. I doubt this, but the ultimate test would be to plant the good strain in the toxic territory and to analyse them a year later. Obviously we wouldn't want to do it the other way round

[Rev]

Damn it

I WISH i hadnt lost that copy on the distribution of tropane alkaloids in Duboisia myoporoides!! i could have scanned it

Its particularly interesting seen in conjunction with reports that the preferable D hopwoodii only grows north of a certain line of distribution

The myoporoides chemotype trend is towards Nicotine in low lattitude, and high altitude populations

if i could only show you...if i could just scan the mofo document with the map right here...

If any old Duboisia hopwoodii was wanted then we could have had it years ago. I know a spot near yalgoo in WA where theres plenty. Thing is, as Fractal can confess and the Aboriginals obviously knew, having any old chemotype isnt really any use except as a 'hard to keep' collectible. Ok its a nice collectible and i guess the $ reflects its rarity - but i personally wouldnt even consider buying such a plant as it seems a bit of a dead end

Better off nicking some cuttings from the dubiosia myoporoides hybrids grown commercially on the coast if tropanes are your cup of tea

[Torsten]

Rev, obviously populations will be divided by something such as latitude. The point is, what happens if you take a plant from one area and plant it in another? will the lakaloid level match the rest of the population in that area or will it retain its original profile? that's essentially what defines chemotypes from environmental varieties and I am pretty sure that myoporoides will not change.

Sure, there are bound to be small variations depending on temp and other factors, but I have read plenty of papers that define myoporoides into proper chemotypes.

As for pituri, maybe the history books aren't quite accurate. Jumped Angel isn't the only person who has consumed Duboisia hopwoodii outside the pituringa area, so the least we should do is keep an open mind about the quality of pituri from other areas.

[Rev]

OK point taken

will be listening to hear on developments then

[Fractalhead]

Torsten, can you provide us with details for those Duboisia chemotype references so we can have a look?

[planthelper]

darcy,

i want one, pls put me on the list.

:D

[bloodbob]

Short communication

(−)-Hyoscyamine in Duboisia hopwoodii

G. S. Kennedy1

Department of Botany, University of Queensland, Brisbane, Australia

Received 1 September 1970. Available online 20 March 2001.

Abstract

Tropane alkaloids were found in previous Duboisia hopwoodii F. Muell. Their location was restricted to the roots of the plant. The pyridine alkaloids were concentrated in its leaves. All Duboisia species therefore, have unexpectedly similar alkaloids but locate them differently within the plant.

[ 16. June 2004, 02:09: Message edited by: bloodbob ]

[JumpedAngel]

Thats rigt Mr T, I would like to point out that if that southern chemotype was indeed toxic-poisonous then my gnome as well as certain other gnomes and gnomlettes around these southern parts might well be in cactus city right now, particularly as my own gnome personally accounted for roughly 2 cubic decimeters of the herb over as many months with zero ill effect. :cool:

How did you go with the sample Darcy?

[Happy Cadaver]

Ok, I should have mentioned that if you would like to order a plant, please email Adrian at [email protected]

You know what Jumped Angel? I didn't get around to having a good chew! I did notice from a little bit that it didn't have the real peppery taste that Henry's had, though i imagine that would be more from the age of the sample than any other factor. I can give it a better go soonish.

How do you expect to keep the 'Real' thing Rev, if you don't practice on 'any old' D. hopwoodii?

Funny how many people are interested in a dead end...

[Torsten]

I can't remember which paper gave most of the details as I never owned them (they belonged to a friend of mulga's ). I do have a reference list though which I copied at the time.

Luanratana in Journal of Natural products 43

Griffin in Journal of pharmaceutical science 64

While you are at it, maybe try to get this one too:

Bachmann in Planta medica 55

beta-phenethylamines in D.myoporoides suspension culture

I bioassayed a sample from a plant in sydney that was sourced from southern Qld. It quite obviously did not contain much hyoscyamine (which is the dominant alkaloid in the sydney region). Similarly, D.myoporoides plantations overseas produce reliable amounts of scopolamine (the dominant alkaloid in northen NSW and Qld) in varying climates. Also, how do you explain an anabasine chemotype on the NSW north coast surrounded by sopolamine chemotypes if the alkaloid profile was based on latitude rather than chemotyping?

[Torsten]

Jumped angel - I still believe that the D.hopwoodii from other areas contains the toxic nornicotine (well, it's not that I just *believe* it, but that it was analysed to be so). However, maybe the nornicotine is of little consequence for low dose stimulant type activity. The use of nornicotine containing Nicotiana spp supports this.

But the entheogenic high doses that were probably used in rituals might be a VERY different story. if you are drifting in and out of consciousness with little control over your mind and body, then adding a few percent of something toxic may make a world of difference. The concept would probably be interpreted as 'evil spirits' and hence would make nornicotine pituri taboo.

That doesn't mean we can't dabble in it though

[Rev]

Whatever Henrys' chemotype was.. thats the one i want

damn that was a nice smoke

I see your good point about practicing on the analogue plants Darcy.

[gomaos]

Whatever Henrys' chemotype was.. thats the one i want

damn that was a nice smoke

i'll go totally with that...

beats ANY normal tobacco i've ever smoked...

and the effect was very positive, not stupefying like a normal high nicotine flash, i.e. nausea, bloodpressure probs etc...

this one was JUST NICE, preferrable to any commercial tobacco (in ya face, tobacco concerns!)

[infinite_monkey]

i dont know if anybody is intersted but there is a book in the uni libary that lists alkaloid variations in plant distributions of duboisia myoporoides and some on hopwoodii and also on another one but cant remember the name at the moment, so i could hunt it down and again and copy some of the info if peoples are intersted

[Torsten]

definitely VERY interested.

even if you can't get the books, maybe you can provide full title/author once you've checked.

[Fractalhead]

Thanks heaps Torsten. I'll have a squizz now.

I'm also really keen to have a look at that ref IM

[ 17. June 2004, 20:20: Message edited by: Fractalhead ]

[Fractalhead]

I think I found the document you were looking for Rev. Looks like a good paper.

Phytochemistry. 2000 Mar;53(6):623-37. Related Articles, Links

Chemotaxonomy and geographical distribution of tropane alkaloids.

Griffin WJ, Lin GD.

School of Pharmacy, University of Queensland, St. Lucia, Australia.

Its got a map showing duboisia myoporoides alkaloid profiles in different parts of queensland. Interestingly, while the ones up in north qld do both have nicotine, they also have scopolamine, hyoscyamine and norhyoscyamine. Perhaps more interesting is that the only region on the map not having tropanes listed as present is down in south east qld at 1000m altitude on the Acacia Plateau.

[JumpedAngel]

Good ref. Fractal

OK, your opinion is as valid as anyone elses torsten dude, I often struggle with this 'one chemical - one salvation' philosophy so apparent within these circles, too often we may be robbing ourselves of a cultivated cultural experience by extracting or explaining in terms of that 'one' chemical and forsaking others which in combination may not yet be understood, but there it is, just another opinion, dont forget, sally cant always dance either, however, there were two more important things that I wanted to talk about:-

Firstly, you must recognise that this is a really good opportunity to do some research of our own, imagine, this time next year we could have an analysis of three plants from different origins, we could be well underway to an analysis of seasonal variability, we might be able to speak more confidently about alkaloid distributions within any one of these three plant chemo-types, we may have a better understanding of the effects of various types of cureing and also ageing effects, it all depends on if we can get organised or not, what do you think?, now is a good time to start negotiations for a scope!, what would you want to include in that study?.

Secondly, I am concerned about those copies of 'Oceania Monograph #26' that 'Sydney Exotic Plants' has for sale, the original document can be viewed by the public free of charge at any state library, and I think by law (copyright law), you may photo-copy 10% of each volume at any given time (many monographs in one volume) or the whole lot, 50 years after the authors death, I would like anyone who can date the publication of Monograph #26 to respond to this enquiry now, otherwise I will check this out personally within the next few weeks, sorry guys, I don't want to stop anyone from making the odd buck at someone elses expense, just dont like to see outdated information in the guise of groundbreaking research or current state of the art knowledge.

As things stand, this is precisly the sort of documentation Mr T should be trying to put up on this web-site, even if only as 'historically' significant information on a 'for its day' basis.

[JumpedAngel]

Sorry guys, here it is and it is valid, 1983, but still available for free:-

http://www.drugtext.org/library/articles/912411.htm

[Torsten]

JA -

1) that's exactly the plan

2) I don't think your link is the actual paper, but rather just a synopsis. I believe Adrian has made arrangements with the author (I don't think she is dead yet ).

[Happy Cadaver]

Jumped Angel, Adrian was resurrecting this paper with the permission of the Author (who gets the majority of the takings from the sale) who has let him put the whole thing in a PDF format. From his work in moving it over to this format, i think it's quite reasonable considering the asking price. It's also easier than tracking down the original and photcopying it. It's also about 70 pages long so there's still a cost it photocopying it - and the author gets nothing from people doing so.