Pituri? Please?

[gomaos]

I'm after some dried Pituri, duboisia hopwoodi, for my own consume only. I got to try it a few months ago, and found it very nice.

I'ld like to substitute/cut my smoking tobacco with it.

Of course some plants or seeds would also be great, but I'm sure they're not available...

So if anyone out there has some pituri lying around, please, cash or trade....

[planthelper]

i'd like some too,

but i think, our chances are very slim.

henry, don't you wanna post, a second time here at sab?

heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenryyyy.

[Torsten]

I e-mailed him a few days ago and have not had a reply. I presume he is busy or travelling. I'll try again in a few weeks. He's a busy man and we shouldn't hassle him....

[JumpedAngel]

Hey Guys

There appears to be some interest in this amongst those in the know at least.

My plan is to go back to the desert when I can get myself organised(in 2-3months) and get some more.

I recently came across someone who has just eliminated a long term (35year)tobacco addiction by substituting pituri for it.

I have access to some seed however I am reluctant to distibute or post it around until I feel more comfy about whatever legal implications there may be.

PM me if you want to continue this dialogue. :D

[planthelper]

i think, pituri enhances sex life, and lucid dreaming!

:D

i would like to support, and be part of, a trip to,

pituri country.

pituri was as "powerfull as coca" in sa, in oz, but the arrival of white,

caused to wipe,

out all the pirturi trails... :mad:

this success (of the new arrivals), lead to the believe,

the collonizer's could,

wipe out coca mama in sa aswell....

but they will never achive that goal.. :D

seven sisters, on the "birdsville track"!

law maker's,

used to be the shamans, but these day's, i am worried, about our trade.

shamans, have a much better understanding of injustice...

[gomaos]

pituri was as "powerfull as coca" in sa,

it's strange that you should write that, I was thinking exactly along the same lines...

the effect of pituri is very similar to that of the chewing of coca leaves (I did get to try that on my travels in countries where it is legal).

No buzz, no "hit", but just a general feeling of well-being and improvement of energy, similar also to khat...

Damn the white man for destroying indigenous cultures, the only thing the white culture ever was better in, was their weaponry...

the white people's mindframe and attitude has always been stuck in the stone-age (i.e. "I am stronger and will hit you over the head if you aborigines don't do what I tell you, you drink goddamn alcohol and no other drugs are allowed")

I spit at white culture...

[Guest mandragora]

Ahh the white culture or better the western culture is also very good in extracting all things to the core and have therefore forgotten about the traditional way of using herbs-forgett about mixture who could prevent you from overdosage-, but therefore when somebody is addicted he is addicted and you have controll....

A controlled society...

Sorry had not really something to do with pituri itself, got dragged away.

[planthelper]

pituri was barter, the indigenous used it, equal to our money system!

pituri, got traded all over this big continent!

as we know, the word "pituri", stands for various plant materials, just like peyote is a traditional word decribing different cacti!

mandragora you, made an excellent point ( antitode, included in mixture... 40.000 of use, tells us more than a microscope and beaker)

pituri made it possible, to work better (and endure the heat), thats my guess.

what would happen to our society if,

storm troopers would, jump out of there helicopters, and pull out, all the grape vines and tabaco plant's!! this is a saying from the native people from south america.

we wouldn't like it, if somebody would cofiscate our coffee...

more so, the fact that pituri had lost it's high statues, further would have lead to, the decay of aboriginal dreamtime spirit believes.

if you destroy the plant,

you destroy, the spiritual believes aswell.

than you kill the roo, and than punish, the hunter for hunting the cow instead!!!

[gomaos]

pituri, got traded all over this big continent!

well hopefully we can make that happen again.

Stuff the authorities and those who still control pituri to his very day...

there's one thing I can't understand:

Supposedly it's sooo dangerous to go out yourself and look for pituri in the area where it grows...

what could possibly be so dangerous?

Would one starve or die of thirst?

Don't we live in the 21st century and can even climb Mt. Everest?

What can be so dangerous?

The climate, or other people, rangers or whatever?

What are they gonna do? Crucify you because you're looking for pituri?

If those farmers who own millions of acres don't like you looking on "their" land (who's land is it anyway?) stuff them too...

If I had the money and time to do it, I would...

we wouldn't like it, if somebody would cofiscate our coffee

Well we also don't like it when they confiscate our dope, our pills or whatever, THEY are just fucken faschists...(and belong in hell!)

[Torsten]

gomaos, this topic has been dealt with in detail. To recap:

* Pituri only grows on private property.

* This private property is pastoral leases meaning it is subject to native title claim. The owners are NOT interested in helping the traditional owners to strengthen their case by showing a 'continuous link with the land' on the basis of the pituri trade. They DO NOT want anthropologists, ethnobotanists or anyone else snooping around. They are also not interested in doing business on that front (the owners are known as the "cattle kings of australia")

* Pituri country is some of the most inhospitable and treacherous country in Australia - if not the world. Plenty has been written about it as it is only a few hundred K's from where Burke and Wills perished.

* Pituri country is in channel country - if it rains you're stuck till it stops a few months later.

* And even IF you got there safely, got permission to harvest, and (last but definitely not least) actually found some plants, then think about who *really* owns these bushes and who should profit from the intellectual property about pituri!!!

[ 10. April 2004, 15:31: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[gomaos]

Well, sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone, but I always thought that plants like that should be spread over the whole planet?

But perhaps there are good reasons why they shouldn't be, even if I can't truely understand them...

[sakura]

How about getting a prospectors license and going through the 'back door' (so to speak...)

Most farmers have no problems with mineral prospectors accessing their property and, I am a little sketchy on the details here, I believe that they can't refuse you access on a regular pastoral lease (you are required to ask permission, but, as they only lease what's on top of the ground - not what's beneath it - , they are required to grant you 'reasonable access').

[Torsten]

There are 3 stations in the area, each one about 100km from the next. To get proper access you would need to use their private road (250km long). In general it would be very unwise to venture onto this land without the support of these folks, but to do so without proper permission (or by stealth) would be suicide.

Gomaos - sorry I got snappy on this. I am trying to work on this issue slowly and with all sensitivities in mind.

I fully agree that this plant should be made available widely. My point is that the traditional owners should be the ones to reap the main benefit from this though. Personally I would like to see an active trade in this stuff that could produce a few jobs on location while maintaining a traditional link to the land. Making sure to get the right people at the other end would be the most important task and requires some insider knowledge. There are currently a lot of changes in that area, with stations being up for sale, native title claims afoot, and everyone trying to adapt to these changes. It's a bad time to try and start something now.... but then again it may also be the best time.

Henry just mailed me to let me know he is flat out and that he still hasn't located the seeds. He's still looking, but other things in his life have priority right now.

[gomaos]

My point is that the traditional owners should be the ones to reap the main benefit from this though. Personally I would like to see an active trade in this stuff that could produce a few jobs on location while maintaining a traditional link to the land.

sounds like a great idea to me.

It's a similar situation to that of the "san" people in Africa with their hoodia cactus...

I wonder how things are going there?

Last thing I saw was on tv and a chief of the san people had become really fat and they all were on marihuana...

But no worries, personally i'll probably never go into that area. I wouldn't be fit enough...

[planthelper]

this excursion needs planing,

but it's not impossible.

....outback landholder's are nice people...

it's our job to re-enstate pituri.

if didgeridoos reach me from the same locations, so can pituri!

[Torsten]

The San people are missing out bigtime. They were always destined to!

When Phizer took on the project they never intended to market Hoodia itself, but to synthesise an analog with similar action - an analog that could be patented. After several years it appeared that no such analog could be found and Phizer pulled out.

In the meantime many farmers had started growing Hoodia in conjunction with the CSIR (or by themselves) and are now stuck with large crops of material without a structured market. ASdd to that the illegally wildharvested stuff and the last thing on anyone's mind are the San.

The money that does trickle through to the San also doesn't appear to be used wisely on all counts, but at least it is improving their situation in general. Sure, you will get the fat lazy ones who make the most (ie least) of their sudden wealth, but we should not loose sight of how Hoodia money improves the situation of their culture in general.

It is impossible to wind the clock back and to tell the San that they have to be independent bushmen. Their lifestyles had been changed too long ago to reasonably expect/hope that. But maybe this money will help them carve out a new niche for themselves in that society. At the very least it will give them some options they didn't have before.

[gomaos]

I didn't mean to say anything bad about the San, in fact I'm quite impressed by them.

I just found it so funny that they have fat people too now.

I wish them all the best and if they're enjoying their "wealth" good on them.

[JumpedAngel]

I was forced to rekindled my knowledge of ethnobotony in general recently when I began building a website dealing (supposedly) with bush survival, during my searching for additional information I became aware of this and other similar chatrooms/web-communities, this is quite new to me and when I was out hunting pituri in the desert almost 20 years ago, speculation of a facility such as this or even the ability to purchase cacti and other ethnobotanic herbs on-line might have been considered fanciful at best.

Unfortunately I did not find the site in time to be able to attend EB3, or to see what Henry provided in terms of samples or the talk that he gave, and unfortunately this event was not recorded or preserved for the benefit of others to learn from, I have noted a resurgence of interest in the herb since the event and have noted a number of requests for a supply of the herb, unfortunately I can not help by providing it either and am almost certain that such will not be available anywhere for at least another 20 years.

With a cool head and lots of time to think about it I dusted off the old calculator and quickly determined that a regular user might go through 100 plants in a year!!!, having only ever seen 9 of them, and this being after intensive searching on-foot, I believe that 100 plants may equate to an entire region of plants, a heavy user might use much more. I am dismayed by the fact that both published photographs of the bush that I have seen appear to be grossly inacurate and misleading particularly where the actual amount of available foliage on the plant is concerned, as the actual amount of plant matter recovered from one complete plant once dried and crushed is only about the quantity that might fit into a 2 ounce tobacco pouch.

Even today when native stocks have had the opportunity to recover from countless centuries of intensive and relentless traditional plunder, this plant still remains rare, the truth you MUST face is that even if you do one day crack the secrets of its cultivation, you will need to also set aside many acres per each person that you want to be able to supply, and this equates to a very hard ask if it turns out to be a plant with special symbiotic requirments as I susspect it to be, you must be able to see the bottom line, this is one plant that you can't place a realistic value on, and I believe it will remain in the realms of mythology for years to come.

Asking someone to supply you is also a difficult proposition if you consider the implications legal and otherwise, I know for a fact that it will cost me $300 in fuel alone just to get to the point where I will start looking and return home again, I expect to spend this much again for fuel and many days driving and walking in the actual search, incidently the greatest danger out there is not Mr Ranger or Mr Farmer as I doubt that you will ever see either, It is Mr redneck pigshooter and please believe me when I say to you that you do not want to look trendy out there unless you aspire to becoming a stylish target.

It is inhospitable country, that is true, personally I found it more difficult trying to get by up in the Daintree, (except for the one time I got lost), Burke by name Burke by nature what else can you say about the man, when you compare his map making and navigational achievements to someone like Cook you soon see where the problem was, anyone else might have made a success out of that expedition.

At the risk of sounding politically incorrect I would like to say that laying claim to cultural/traditional knowledge of the plant is one thing, claiming ownership of the plant species itself is a completely different matter, you can no more own a species of plant than you can own a chemical element, I'm sure you would not be impressed if some mexican chappy came along making demands on your cactus garden or cactus knowledge etc.

I have found pituri outside of channel country, this being the south east stoney desert, I also believe it occurs up in the north east simpson desert, I would not be surprised to find it in at least one of the victorian deserts or even the mallee in general, and will eventually look into that also, as for feeling guilty about harvesting some, well, all I can say is how I feel is my concern, I'm sure none of you will loose much sleep worrying about harvesting an endangered acacia or even a native mushroom :D .

The point is this, any which way you look at this plant it remains economically un-viable, you can not aspire to harvest it sustainably/profitably from the wild, you can not aspire to own enough land to be able to cultivate a viable/commercial quantity, and you can not even guarantee yourself a regular supply for personal use.

So what is the interest for me?, for me it remains that inspiration which first compelled me to go walkabout without a compass in one of the worlds harshest desert environments, with my testicles in one hand and my life in the other and the certain knowledge that I will only ever find the truth if I seek it first hand, I took a chance and passed my initiation, be certain that you are up to it before you make the attempt.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by JumpedAngel:

I have noted a resurgence of interest in the herb since the event

There has been a lot of interest for as long as I have known about it. henry also talked at EB2, but he didn't bring any samples that time. It was the samples that made all the difference

With a cool head and lots of time to think about it I dusted off the old calculator and quickly determined that a regular user might go through 100 plants in a year!!! [] The actual amount of plant matter recovered from one complete plant once dried and crushed is only about the quantity that might fit into a 2 ounce tobacco pouch.

It is certainly not a heavy cropper and will be very labour intensive.

Even today when native stocks have had the opportunity to recover from countless centuries of intensive and relentless traditional plunder, this plant still remains rare

Hmmmm, true and false! Pituri is rare, while Duboisia hopwoodii is certainly not.

the truth you MUST face is that even if you do one day crack the secrets of its cultivation, you will need to also set aside many acres per each person that you want to be able to supply

Duboisia hopwoodii grows in many parts of australia and is very widespread. It grows in the most unproductive areas, so competition with agriculture is no problem. It is not grazed by animals, so can be planted on grazing land and needs no protection from native animals either. The issue is that vitually all of the D.hopwoodii is of the toxic chemotype. If we could transfer some of the pituri chemotype to these other areas and propagate it vegetatively then there is a good chance that Pituri cultivation is indeed possible and economical.

Mr Ranger or Mr Farmer as I doubt that you will ever see either, It is Mr redneck pigshooter and please believe me when I say to you that you do not want to look trendy out there unless you aspire to becoming a stylish target.

LOL, yes quite aware of that and have made plans accordingly.

At the risk of sounding politically incorrect I would like to say that laying claim to cultural/traditional knowledge of the plant is one thing, claiming ownership of the plant species itself is a completely different matter, you can no more own a species of plant than you can own a chemical element

While a plant cannot be owned, the concept of a purpose of use can be. eg, the San cannot own Hoodia, but they do have IP rights to the application fo Hoodia to reduce appetite. if Hoodia was to turn out to be a medicien for athma, then this would not be included int he patent unless they could proove a long history of using hoodia for this purpose.

In respect to pituri this means that the use of it for narcotic purposes (and various other ones we may not be aware of just yet) is covered under the traditional use IP. I think we need to respect that. There has been a strong move in the last 10 years to enforce these rights and australia is lagging way behind. Even if one was not so inclined on an ethical basis, so as not to get caught out at a later date it would be wise to follow the international lead now.

I'm sure you would not be impressed if some mexican chappy came along making demands on your cactus garden or cactus knowledge etc.

Good point! Although he couldn't make demands on the garden itself, he certainly could make demands if we sold cactus powder for ceremonial purposes. But as that is illegal and we don't do it, there is no claim on IP possible.

I have found pituri outside of channel country, this being the south east stoney desert, I also believe it occurs up in the north east simpson desert

Pituri or D.hopwoodii?

I would not be surprised to find it in at least one of the victorian deserts or even the mallee in general, and will eventually look into that also

As I said, it grows all over the place including WA. But that's the toxic chemotype.

as for feeling guilty about harvesting some, well, all I can say is how I feel is my concern, I'm sure none of you will loose much sleep worrying about harvesting an endangered acacia or even a native mushroom :D .

Two VERY different issues here. I would most certainly be concerned abot harvesting any endangered material. There is plenty of evidence of this in my arguments with Julian Even at a personal level, but most certainly at a commercial level.

I have spoken to a couple of people who have been to Pituri country and neither of them feel that pituri is endangered. I personally also don't see much of a danger there as the plant is well adapted to having it's tops removed. Much of the plant appears to be underground and is well suited to regular partial pruning and occasional total removal of the tops.

The point is this, any which way you look at this plant it remains economically un-viable, you can not aspire to harvest it sustainably/profitably from the wild, you can not aspire to own enough land to be able to cultivate a viable/commercial quantity, and you can not even guarantee yourself a regular supply for personal use.

I disagree on all counts. While it is certainly not sustainable to harvest over an extended time and with increasing interest, wildharvesting would certainly be a way to get started. As for cultivation, the land it grows on is so cheap that it compares well to other crops and could in fact be co-cropped with cattle. More importantly we need to work out just where it will grow and extend its cultivated range to areas with more reliable water supply.

As for conservation of the species, I am happy to inform that one of the three stations was recently bought by a private conservation fund. This eliminates one out of three possible sources of the plant material, but it also means that whatever happens this species will be protected in a large part of its native range.

So what is the interest for me?, for me it remains that inspiration which first compelled me to go walkabout without a compass in one of the worlds harshest desert environments

So, pituri made you go out there 20 years ago?? Wow! a powerful plant indeed. But why without a compass??

with my testicles in one hand and my life in the other and the certain knowledge that I will only ever find the truth if I seek it first hand, I took a chance and passed my initiation, be certain that you are up to it before you make the attempt.

LOL, my raver clothes, trendy trainers and hairdryer will not be making the trip

I've done a fair bit of survival training in my 20's (my best buddy was a fanatical mormon;)), am not a bad shot, and will be doing a training course in sand 4WDriving before heading off. Possibly my two main shortcomings are a poor understanding of mechanics and a low tolerance of heat. A sattellite phone will negate any deadly consequences of the former (along with a good relationship with the property owners) and an early winter trip will reduce the suffering from the latter. Not quite the same as heading off without a compass, but then again we are not going out there to find ourselves, but to find the plant.

[JumpedAngel]

Hi Torston

For me pituri = D. hopwoodii, it is only quite recently that I have become aware that some folks refer to other plants by the name pituri. It was still only the one plant many years ago when I handed in Melbourne Museum's first ever sample for that species.

When I say a resurgence in interest I am probobly using a different cronology to you, how long has this chat-room been on the web 4 maybe 5 years?, no insult intended the fact is I really don't know, but for me this is still easily covered with the word recent, I refer to my IT study/qualifications as recent and these cover the same stretch of time, The original design drawings for the CMTS (Cellular Mobile Telephone System) towers bear my initials as the originating design draftsman, and despite the fact that I drew them some years before going out into the desert for the first time, it would still not surprise me greatly if much of that patch of desert is still outside the scope of the system today, leave your cell phone behind and take a cb or sat. phone instead, the problem is these are still not very portable and by the Seventh day of lugging it around you will definitely need a rest, that is if you can keep them charged and working properly, a better option is a PEB (Personal Emergency Beacon) you can get one reasonably cheap these days ($100 maybe)

The problem with the desert is that once you have lost sight of the car it is all over if you dont know how to navigate, follow your own footsteps back if you can, although this won't always be possible, I had some 20 years tracking experience down south (deerstalker) when it happened to me and I couldn't do it despite having been very proud of some of my former tracking achievments.

I can not fathom how you came to the conclusion that there are specific chemo-types for the plant, I don't believe such a generalised statement can be made without some research backing it up and to the best of my knowledge this has not happened yet, How many varieties have you tried? how many samples have you had access to? (dont tell me what others have "told" you, I don't want to know). I can accept that like some plants or fungi there may be seasonal or localized variability to its potency but am not willing to accept that one localized source will yield an alkaloid different to all others until I have made that personal comparison for myself, this supposed "toxic" varity you have at times alluded to was well received by the local gnome who recently cured himself of a 35 year tobacco smoking habit with it, I think I have probobly poo pood it a bit much on the basis of its flavour alone, then again there are few native foods or flavours that I have come across which I would care to remember with any great fondness (ahh there was that native lime...).

Going out there without a compass sounds a bit idealistic and probobly a bit stupid, or was it?, can you trust your compass? what about when it is affected by things that you can not see, I failed a test hike once because I wasn't aware of the magetic variation caused by the high iron-ore deposits in the ground, I have since idealised native methods of navigation and direction finding and forced myself to learn these and rely primarily upon them, it was still stupid because I could have been out there for up to another 24 hours before I got sight of a shadow or the night sky to give me a bearing. A compass can be great, a GPS can also be excellent, as is a satelite phone but only for so long as they do their job or don't mislead you, but if you don't know how to navigate and your instruments give you incorrect data or the battery has gone flat then you are reeeelly fucked, it is always handy not only to have a plan b but also to know how it works, being the sort of person who insists on going out there on his own, there has rarely been anyone else that I could have depended upon anyway.

Anyway, when are you going? I hope you have a pleasant/successful trip, as you have probobly guessed I have formed my own very definite ideas about this plant and even after so many years it still spins me out just thinking about it, I have come across one or two cultivation attempts with absolutely zero success rates thus far, I guess the person who cracks the secret will be the one who controls the trade heh heh:D

[Torsten]

Originally posted by JumpedAngel:

For me pituri = D. hopwoodii

Actually in the context of this discussion I was not referring to any other species anyway. I too still have to get used to the new concept. My differentiation is about the different chemotypes of D.hopwoodii, where Pituri would be the high nicotine chemotype and all other D.hopwoodii would be the toxic nornicotine chemotype.

It was still only the one plant many years ago when I handed in Melbourne Museum's first ever sample for that species.

Other species such as Nicotiana and Goodenia used to be called Pituri substitutes, but they are in fact Pituri - albeit a less desirable one.

When I say a resurgence in interest I am probobly using a different cronology to you, how long has this chat-room been on the web 4 maybe 5 years?, no insult intended the fact is I really don't know, but for me this is still easily covered with the word recent

Fair enough. My interest in Pituri goes back about 15 years and in that time I have seen 3 waves of interest in this community.

leave your cell phone behind and take a cb or sat. phone instead

I DID say satellite phone....

the problem is these are still not very portable

About the same size as my first GSM phone

a better option is a PEB (Personal Emergency Beacon)

Got two. One to carry on me and one in the car.

I can not fathom how you came to the conclusion that there are specific chemo-types for the plant, I don't believe such a generalised statement can be made without some research backing it up and to the best of my knowledge this has not happened yet, How many varieties have you tried? how many samples have you had access to? (dont tell me what others have "told" you, I don't want to know).

Quite a bit of research has been done on pituri and this includes chemotyping. I can't recall the reference, but Henry Cox (and his mentor) were working on this and he mentioned some prior references, and so did Michael Bock (I'll check his book later). In any case you can do your own comparison by looking up the analysis results for plant material harvested in 'Pituri country' and elsewhere. Distinct chemotypes in plant populations that have been separated for an extended period of time is quite common. Even the closely related Duboisia myoporoides has two VERY distinct chemotypes within a mere 300km on the east coast.

Anyway, if you apply some logic you may not need the pharmacology results.... why do you think pituri was traded thousands of kilometers into districts that have their own Duboisia hopwoodii if it wasn't special (ie non-toxic)?

I can accept that like some plants or fungi there may be seasonal or localized variability to its potency but am not willing to accept that one localized source will yield an alkaloid different to all others until I have made that personal comparison for myself

I would see this as a limitation in your research rather than a positive attribute. Believe it or not, but chemotyping is a well known part of pharmacology. It applies to many species, including many commercial crops. See nutmeg, parsley (in fact heaps of species in the Apiaceae), Crowea, Melaleuca... if I had the time I could list at least 200 just from memory)

In our shire alone are 4 chemotypes of a single species of Zieria.

this supposed "toxic" varity you have at times alluded to was well received by the local gnome who recently cured himself of a 35 year tobacco smoking habit with it

Good for you. But maybe you are not as much of a pituri connoiseur as the traditional users

Going out there without a compass sounds a bit idealistic and probobly a bit stupid, or was it?, can you trust your compass? what about when it is affected by things that you can not see, I failed a test hike once because I wasn't aware of the magetic variation caused by the high iron-ore deposits in the ground

Luckily these days one can be prepared with several back up methods (got a GPS too). But most important of all one needs to use common and natural sense (eg memorise landmarks etc).

Anyway, when are you going?

The original plan was in about 8 weeks. I was about to put it off for a while longer, but the recent rains and some positive news from the area will probably force me to keep to that schedule.

I hope you have a pleasant/successful trip

LOL, I'll be happy with successful - whatever that means. At this point success would already be if I got a good photo of the plant/flower. Some seed would be even better. I also intend to take some root cuttings and some grafting material. I doubt it will be pleasant.

I have come across one or two cultivation attempts with absolutely zero success rates thus far, I guess the person who cracks the secret will be the one who controls the trade heh heh:D

I hope the control of the trade stays with the traditional owners and my work with this species is based around that. We have always shared all our cultivation knowledge freely on this site, so if we do 'crack it' that's what will happen.

[JumpedAngel]

Just a quick response, I have an app. to fix up.

If you want photos, leave it go for Sept-Oct.

It was Oct for me and the thing was in flower with green and black berries showing, I was going to mention that it may be near impossible to id if not in flower especially with the misleading photos from T.Low and L.Hiddins.

[JumpedAngel]

your quote

quote:

---

"Anyway, if you apply some logic you may not need the pharmacology results.... why do you think pituri was traded thousands of kilometers into districts that have their own Duboisia hopwoodii if it wasn't special (ie non-toxic)?"

---

Heresay evidence is just that, and although I do not wish to cast aspersions on your good character or anyone elses I still prefer to subscribe to the suck-it-and-see school of logic, particularly as this plant seems to be protected by the "brother" network (this would be an autocrcy, meaning that only the people at its very pinnacle actually know what is going on) with any number of misleading claims and photographs turning up wherever the plant is mentioned.

Having a strong Finno-Ugrian birth heritage and a seven year stint in south america as well as many travels to shit laden mosquito infested swamps all over the world, I have had the opportunity to examine all manner of cultural foilbles, superstitions and aberations. I can't tell you why the stuff was traded so far and wide for certain, I am lead to believe that the plant was protected even from the younger men of a controlling tribe, (apparently your beard had to have turned white before you were eligible to learn these secrets) how else do you protect such a secret except through mis-information, fear and superstition?, telling someone that the stuff is toxic for example, and if this works locally then why wouldn't it work thousands of kilometers away?, have you considered that these may have actually been the wise-guys of the aboriginal race?.

Have you ever tried making a green stone axe from scratch, these things are absolute treasures and take ages to make and grind an edge on, yet if a (two week supply) bag of weed was dropped on the ground even this was handed over without question, buddy there is no logic to it. as far as aboriginal culture is concerned, I am aware that it has continued evolving albeit in a different stream but the old stories no longer seem to be fully understandable nor do I believe that they were ever really interpretable into a western mindset, something as simple as boiling water for example, almost every local indigenous group lays cultural claim to the ability to boil water, however not one shows an example of a vessel construction for boiling the water in, unlike in northern climes where large shells were used, down south there is scant evidence of even traded shells and certainly nothing in terms of baked clay technology, not even in the local clay-pans where high-heat technology does appear to have been practiced.

My over-riding concern for some time has been the survival education of the australian population, each week you hear of some lost soul or mishap when in real terms everyone here should have been taught at least short term survival skills by the time they reach primary school, although short term survival skills don't take much know-how, where can you point and say, oh look there is an indigenous group passing on some real, practical, simple, easy-to-remember knowledge?, but you are prepared to point to the esoteric stuff and say ohh I "believe" that.

I don't pretend to have done much real research or to be any sort of pituri connoiseur, as stated, I dislike the flavour, other than to have located a rare plant in one patch (not too far from where you're going), anyway I think the issue is more about what some of us are prepared to "believe".

I know I've probobly given you the shits with the survival advice already but here is another little suppository for ya :D , the red sands are iron bearing, these are thought to be sometimes quite deep "wind deposited soils" and as such may or may not be magnetic, also, I can't remember where we are with the 11 year solar flare cycle, these can play havoc with sat. phones and GPSs. do a search on sun spot activity before you go, I'm glad you have some PEB's, I wouldn't have been too proud to take one if they had been readily available back then. I think those two clowns in the middle of lake ayre probobly had one although as you can see, the fresh comm. equipment that was dropped to them from the helicopter doesn't seem to have worked.

your quote

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"Luckily these days one can be prepared with several back up methods (got a GPS too). But most important of all one needs to use common and natural sense (eg memorise landmarks etc)."

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Hope to god you don't try to get by on memorising landmarks, thats how I got lost, the one outstanding feature of our deserts is their "featurelessness", add to this a patch of compacted magetic gravel to hinder tracking skills and electronic equipment, crank the temperature up till the ground all around you starts to shimmer and add some mindblowingly potent psycodelic desert colours to spin your head around, and you already start to wonder where this world ends and the next one beggins.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by JumpedAngel:

Heresay evidence is just that

As a scientist one accepts certain things and doubts or dismisses other. Being aware of the concept of chemotyping means that when i see the differing analyses of a species in different districts then this leave sonly two options - one being that there are chemotypes, the other being that there is seasonal variation. While analyses of pituri from the right area are rare (and have shown nicotine as the major alkaloid with little or no nornicotine present), there are several analyses of D.hopwoodii from outside the pituri area, none of which showed high nicotine content and all of which showed high nornicotine (regardless of season). There is a third distinct chemotype in a region in WA which produces little of either nicotine or nornicotine, but has hyoscyamine as the main alkaloid. Obviously this would not be traded well with folks who are looking for a nicotine rush.

and although I do not wish to cast aspersions on your good character or anyone elses I still prefer to subscribe to the suck-it-and-see school of logic

A bit simplistic in this case. But you're right that I would much prefer to actually analyse the plant material from all districts at all times of the year in a single lab. In fact that is one of my aims. I love high dose nicotine material (see my posts about chimo), but with such a complex mix of alkaloids it is naive to think that merely sampling it will reveal all. That's how we get 'strychine in LSD' and 'heroin in ecstacy' type stories

particularly as this plant seems to be protected by the "brother" network

It seems that most of the white researchers have doen their work with little or no help from thos who have the most knwoledge about this plant (and protect it). This may or may not be a good thing. On the positive side it means that research isn't skewed by what we are not supposed to know, while on the negative side it has made the research painfully slow.

Have you ever tried making a green stone axe from scratch, these things are absolute treasures and take ages to make and grind an edge on, yet if a (two week supply) bag of weed was dropped on the ground even this was handed over without question, buddy there is no logic to it.

There rarely is logic in addiction. And lets face it these guys were/are addicted. Which makes the argument that they would have (at least secretly) consumed the material from other regions if it was palatable (by their standards) even stronger.

Hope to god you don't try to get by on memorising landmarks, thats how I got lost, the one outstanding feature of our deserts is their "featurelessness",

I learnt my survival skills as a child in sanddunes that could be overrun by 10m visibility fog in a mere 10 minutes, so I might do better than most in a sand environment. My problem is with forests.... there it all looks the same

But really, I don't even intend to stray beyond the line of sight from my car, and I am pretty sure I will have some local guides.

One would hope I will never need the PEB's, but I'd rather die of shame than of heat

My sister runs a camping/adventure/outdoors shop, so I get all the gear real cheap or free and don't have to think about the economics of my safety. At least in the middle of the desert it is unlikely to have a channel 10 news crew poking their camera in my face asking me if that evil green drug I am holding had anything to do with my demise

[JumpedAngel]

In my traditional culinary background sometimes a certain cucumber chemo-types is prepared in an unusual fermentation process, it never ceases to amaze me how delectible this preperation can be or alternately how bad the result if it was the wrong cucumber, the italian baked capsicum recipe is another example, do it to a green, yellow, or white capsicum and you end up eating shit, do it to a red capsicum and it is heavenly, again this brings to mind the memory that pituri was also cured or treated in some special way, what do you know of that?.

 

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[bOLD]There rarely is logic in addiction. And lets face it these guys were/are addicted. Which makes the argument that they would have (at least secretly) consumed the material from other regions if it was palatable (by their standards) even stronger.[/bOLD]

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When you say stuff like this I trip out and visualize myself as a crusty old Kadaicha who has spotted a young bucks tracks near some plants that he controls, and having now understood his intent, has the grim but delicate task ahead to set the buck up to look like a transgressor of traditional law and to punish him in a way that will reinforce the established belief systems and maintain the traditional controls over the tribe and the broader community being mindful that this is the centre of control for a huge overland network radiating out from the heart of the country this being in itself of penultimate importance.

If many of the pituri chemo-types are already toxic or poisonous and the secret to the manipulation of the plant is actually in the preparation then the Kadaicha may be spared his grim duty, merely allowing nature to take its course and reinforcing superstitions verbally by acurately predicting symptoms to the criminals transgressions or faining that he has stolen the criminals kidney fat or some other ju-ju bullshit like that.

I have sailed through the past few decades accepting that we honestly don't know exactly which chem. or combination is responsible for the activites of several plant substances including pituri and I kind of aggree there is a case for studies of the sort you propose but then again I am in two minds as I'm not entirely sure that it really matters, what are you looking for?, do you want to domesticate the plant and produce a breed specificaly selected and cultivated on the basis of your idea of the most acceptable poisons contained therein? do you want to reclaim lost knowledge? are you prepared to decide for us or dictate to us which is the most acceptable poison that the plant should manufacture? and are you willing to assume responsibility for those decision that you make? I think you said you like a large hit of nicotine? what if you find that Mr Piturihead doesn't behave like Mr Nicotinehead, do you think you will be able to unload him?.

(Ohh Also my gnome has reminded me that the biggest nicotine hit he ever had was from drinking gin that had pituri soaking in it for about a month but can't make comparissons as he has never tried chimmo.)

These high tech. methods and speculations you propose may actually yield meaningless un-translatable results, they might even loose the original spirit of the plant or perhaps they may bring on some unforseen disaster, I believe bioassays often present a valuable data set, this was brought home to me in the past when I observed how much fun a number of gnomes and gnomlettes were having on one particular occassion yet this is often forgotten as my own crusty old gnome barely ever cracks a smile.

I know its very much cliche, and especially so around here but I can never forget that tacky old line "....everything is poison....nothing is poison"