"Alcohol Alternatives"

[gomaos]

Benzoes?

Things like valium and temazepam for example?

I get these regular from my doc but don't take them often, I got like 3 packs of them almost full.

I take them when I can't sleep that's all.

They have no value as a narcotic- or alcohol-substitue for me...I used to take them quite regularly some years ago till one time my girlfriend flushed a whole 50 pack of valium down the toilet because she got upset with me taking them. I'm still grateful for that...

On a different note I wouldn't mind trying some ibogaine whenever I could get some...wouldn't mind meeting my parents again etc....

[Auxin]

Yesterday I posted this on EA, figured it would fit here too...

"I am now more interested than ever in P. incarnata, but now I consider the alkaloids as little more than byproducts. Recent scientific research has uncovered a previously unknown flavonoid in the plant. Unlike the commonly known incarnata flavonoids (like vitexin, etc.) it is not a flavone, but rather a benzoflavone that has shown great promise as a antiaddiction drug. In the most resent study (march 2002) it reduced alcohol withdrawl symptoms by 91% and had similar activity with nicotine addiction! [You can tell the scientists involved have considered the possibility of it being a wonder drug because they never stated the structure, but said it was hidden in a sealed patent. If this stuff is as good as the data suggests then soon after it hits the pharmacies nicotine patches and antabuse will only be seen in the basement of museums!]

Needless to say, this year I'm actually gonna harvest my P. incarnata for a change."

They didnt give jack as far as the structure goes, they just said trisubstituted benzoflavone. From their procedures I can estimate some generalities about those substituents so I should be able to remove half of the other flavonoids from a P. incarnata flavonoid extract without preparative column chromatography. Cant wait to get enough to try it, cutting my tobacco intake by 66% in one day without any symptoms shure would be cool.

If any other tobacco or alcohol addict chemists are out there I can post references to the studies if you want. I'm eventually gonna try it with tobacco, but I'm not a alcohol addict (or consumer) so I cant do any alcoholism self experimentation- thats up to you guys I guess.

[gomaos]

Sorry folks for bringing this thread back...

but in some forums I see new thread belittling the evils of alc, and i feel I have to do something about it...

my personal addiction history:

Again i am off it for 6 months now (since february this year) and feel so much better for it...

The thing with alc is it's just so deeply rooted in society...

just have a look, for example, in personal ads on the pc, women, approx 40+: Over 90 % "don't smoke, but drink socially"...

i bet they also drink by themselves...

Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy social get-togethers, but instead of alc there are so many better things to get social with....

[Guest electro]

"my personal addiction history:

Again i am off it for 6 months now (since february this year) and feel so much better for it..."

firstly, congrats on staying off the alcohol for 6 months... conquering any addiction is always something to be proud of yourself for. Please dont think im attacking you, belittling the battle youve gone through or making any less of the dangers aparent....(heck im at 8 months for nicotine & ive seen my parents try and fail at attempting to quit their 20 something year alcohol addictions ....

"sorry folks for bringing this thread back...

but in some forums I see new thread belittling the evils of alc, and i feel I have to do something about it..."

secondly,my thread at eba was not an attempt to belittle the evils of alcohol ..i apoligise if i came across as sounding as if i were belittling the negative effects and aspects of alcohol .. i will alter the original post to reflect this ...

i certainly wasnt saying that it was not without harm or addictive potential, on the contrary in my defense of alcohol's physical nature i was attacking our social attitude toward alcohol

i was simply making the case that while it DOES certainly have it's downsides it ITSELF if not responsible for most of the ill effects many around here seem to imply it does.

It was mush more a case of my trying to say that people should take responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming other shit (like alcohol or heroin or whatever they are shifting the blame to today). As far as im concerned the excuse (physically aswell as verbally) "i didnt mean to i was drunk" is just as bad and rediculous as "the devil made me do it". whats is worse is that society ACCEPTS this excuse ..

what i find discraceful is that US as a community accept this excuse - we blame alcohol for the actions of the people who use it as an excuse to do fucked up shit !

every time we openly declare that alcohol "causes violence" we are not only ignoring the real causes and issues for the violence (oh so symptomatic of our bandaid society no ?) but we are also giving those people an excuse to keep doing it ... "its ok to hit people when im drunk - everyone knows alcohol makes you lose control, everyone knows alcohol causes violence, its not my fault"

- its just NOT on, there is always a choice, alcohol DOESNT FORCE people to beat the shit out of their wives or riot or fuck shit up ... what it does do is inhibit inhibitions .. so those who feel the need to fuck shit up no longer feel the social restrictions that do stop them from fucking shit up when they arent drunk ...

this for alot of people IS their reason for drinking - to reduce their inhibitions, whatever they may be ...

eg is someone WANTS to fight (why do they feel the need to fight ??? this is the bit everyone overlooks !), but doesnt because of of fear of being arrested .....

this fear will be greatly inhibited by alcohol.

This freedom from fears and constraints which holds people back from doing what they feel they need to do is in alot of cases (if not most cases) is EXACTLY why this person will drink.. to release that fear or restraint - to be able to happily fight and in doing so somehow address the REALL issue which is driving them to want or need to fight ...

in the same way people have to look at the cause of addiction .. people dont keep going back every day for no reason...

we may be programed to seek a pleasure response from everything as motorvation BUT the negative effects - short and long term are enough to stop people who are JUST satisfying the natural pleasure drive....

Those who value the state that alcohol (or any drug) offers MORE than their own health (which is essentially what one weighs up unconciously every time one goes back) is doing it for more than pleasure seeking / satisfaction. They are doing it for a reason and this reason has to be identified and addressed or the addiction will continue, regardless of how many substances are substituted ..

- hell im a prime example .. i swapped alcoholism for alcoholism mixed with codeine, swapped that for nicotine and pot, swapped pot for meth, swapped meth for e, swapped e for alcohol, swapped nicotine for more alcohol, then traded some alcohol for workaholism & the occasional drink with a consistant caffeine habbit (the australian way minus a little alcohol) ....

the addiction is still there 10 years later, its just changed forms and until i deal with *(REALLY DEAL WITH) those issues.

the same principles in the example above apply to ALL drugs, not just alcohol... the principles alco apply to all aspects from addiction through to behaviour through to relapse and then some...

it is not as simple as "dont do it and you wont feel the need to be addicted" or "dont do it and you wont be violent" ....

this is something i dont expect general society to understand or accept, but US, a community that proclaims to be enlightened, open and more attune to what is really going on seem to completley miss all psychological triggers, motorvations and causes so many things ....including alcohol & the issues surrounding it and the motovations of its users ...

"The thing with alc is it's just so deeply rooted in society..."

i couldnt agree more, which was pretty much the reason for my post ...

attitudes, people missing the point, over emphasis on some aspects and completley missing underlying perhapse more important aspects ....

some conversation, some debate and some thinking about the real issues involved is what i was intend to start with my post... certainly not the belittling of dangers or peoples battles to fight their addictions....

im not meaning to belittle anyone or anything here, please dont misunderstand that - i simply woudl like people to at least disciss and hopefully think about the real issues behind things ....

[ 11. August 2004, 20:59: Message edited by: electro ]

[visualfx]

electro,

I can see what your getting at, alcohol definitely doesnt 'force' anyone to do anything. Its essentially the underlying violent tendencies that causes violence.

But, as you've said yourself, alcohol inhibits inhibitions. It disintergrating impulse control, therefore making it much easier for violence/abusive behaviour to come to surface.

This, in my mind, qualifies as indirect cause!

[ 12. August 2004, 12:49: Message edited by: visualfx ]

[Guest electro]

visualfx:

"Its essentially the underlying violent tendencies that causes violence."

i dont believe it is even violent tendacys ...

i believe it is simply a reflection of underlying emotional and psychological issues - being displayed the only way most "blokes" feel comfortable doing so ...

i believe most males in western society are raised to not show any emotion except anger ... people try to claim that its acceptable to show other emotions, but really .. it isnt, not in general society -its not acceptable to be violent either but that is much more acceptable than a grown man crying his eyes out in a pub full of his other bloke mates after copping an insult that actually hurts - throwing a punch or a bottle is the much more "manly" thing to do ..

for alot of males violence and anger is their only real method of releasing emotion, and if alcohol helps them feel more confortable with going against the idealistic "peaceful ideals" of a non violent society then that is what they are going to take when they Need to get that emotion out ... i dont think these people are violent, i think alot of these people need to deal with their REAL issues and i think even more of thse people needto learn to communicate and express emotion is more "positive" ways - ie not through violence and not using alcohol to feel comfortable to do so ..

"It disintergrating impulse control, therefore making it much easier for violence/abusive behaviour to come to surface.

This, in my mind, qualifies as indirect cause!"

i disagree... it is a necessary and possibly crucial factor, but not a cause, not even indirectly - though i think im arguing semantics here ...

...

in disintegrating impulse control it is making peoples issues even more evident which SHOULD be enough of a warning sign to those around that that something is wrong and needs looking at. if anything it is simply making the problems there more apparent, not causing them (which is why i say it is not even an indirect cause, but concede that its involvement is a major and determining factor)

many praise amphetamines for the psychological advantage they offer by being able to break down inhibitions - even mdma is, as it should be, being used because of this quality in ptsd treatment trials.

The difference with alcohol is that it stupefies at the same time, which is not condusive to healing and negates its usefullness as a psychological tool (compared to the amphetamines which leave the mind comparatively clear and able to work through issues) ..

on alcohol however, the emotion is still expressed - giving the warning sign which is all that should be needed. those around the person have a responsibility to

1) realise that this is an indication of a REAL issue, NOT just the alcohol causing the outburst and then

2) to do what they can to help once they have seen this warning sign ...

( this is not something out society encourages - this has to be changed and it starts here, with more discussion and understanding from the more open groups such as this ...)

also note that i am not saying that i advocate alcohol use for this purpose, but i understand that it is and i dont believe enough people do realise this . as i see it, until all people, or at least the majority of people understand the reasoning behind this, the abuse will continue, peoples lives will continue to be fucked up and the "tool" (alcohol) they are using to feel more confortable acting this way will be continued to be used as the scapoegoat, negating the need for anyone to look futher (which stops progress) ....

[ 12. August 2004, 19:30: Message edited by: electro ]