Other substances that potentiate cacti.

[Guest Ramon]

I was just wondering if someone was to accidentally swallow some cacti

What other substances should they stay away from because injesting of these other items would slow down the metabolism of the accidentally swallowed cactus.

[earthalchemist]

food

[Guest reville]

Dont know.But i read in another forum (lycaeum ?) that a pommy guy puts broad beans(extract or whole/GROUND?) in with his lophophora which he believes increases potency - given that the principles in the bean are taken up by the plant and metabolized to the end product it seems feasible, but who knows.all i know is that im not trying it until ive got enough cacti that i wont cry if the extract turns my cactus festy and rots the roots off.any further thoughts?

[Torsten]

MAO-A inhibitors are interesting, but can be dangerous. Moclobemide is gentle and very selective, while peganum is a little on the dangerous side. Don't play arond with these unless you have experience with them and other (safer) combination.

[rkundalini]

A good strong cup of coffee is supposed to be pretty interesting.... didn't notice much difference in my only experience (a 1.5+) but perhaps if one was on a reasonable dose to begin with...

Re doping cacti with precursors, yields are so variable and people so desirous of perceiving an improvement that I would take any reports with a grain of salt. There's an article out there (at SPF perhaps) called pump up your pedros about doping through the skin with DMSO as the solvent.

[Guest Ramon]

From the Tryptamin FAQ

MAO inhibitors fall into two classes: Irreversible and reversible MAOIs. In addition they can inhibit either or both of the two types of the MAO enzyme, MAO-A and MAO-B which are associated with serotonergic and dopaminergic neurons respectively. Irreversible MAOIs (e.g. the hydrazides iproniazid and phenelzine) bind permanently to the enzyme and cause MAO inhibition lasting 1-2 weeks after ingestion. They are used clinically to treat depression. Reversible MAOIs, such as moclobemide, which is used as an antidepressant, and the beta-carbolines harmine and harmaline, are effective for much shorter time, maybe up to 24 hours. Recreational drug users around the world are using mainly harmine and harmaline despite the lack of scientific studies on their effects on humans.

[dutchie]

Hiya all. I have contenplated the addition of extracted beans too. There are qiute a few beans that have interesting properties, I would say that the fellow was referring to a bean with a huge l-dopa content. Im pretty sure Torsten would know what this is... Cant quite remenber now... but it contains up to 7or8% l-dopa, converting to dopamine, nor-mescalin the mescaline, I think, dont hold me to this. Im pretty sure that the DMSO was using l-dopa or dopamine..

D

[Torsten]

The bean with the high l-dopa content is Mucuna pruriens. It is a customs prohibited import into australia, but luckily we already have it growing. It doesn't do well around here, so we have teamed up with someone in a drier part of the state to do this more efficiently.

The DMSO method uses tyrosine. The cactus supposedly converts this into l-dopa, which is then converted to mescaline and other PEAs. Superficially this makes sense, but I have not seen any detailed study into the biosynthesis of mescaline in cacti.

Tyrosine is available at any healthfood shop, but DMSO is a bit more tricky in australia. Apparently it is used in vet medicine, especially as a liniment for horses. It is a very efficient solvent and does not seem to harm cacti (like many other oily substances would).

I don't quite understand why the tyrosine can't just be injected into the centre of the cactus, from where it would be absorbed into the surrounding tissue. It doesn't make much sense to try to carry the tyrosine across the barely penetrable surface of the cactus.

Just a thought.

[dutchie]

DMSO has some pretty amazing properties. It will mimic water as a solvent for all or most organic tissues ie, it will pass through almost all cell walls with no distruction or problems. It will have no problems penetrating the cactus' skin, although a syringe is a little easier to get hold of....

D

[Guest theobromus]

As a pom I would venture the opinion that the broad bean referred to is the Broad Bean, Vicia faba which has some L-dopa in the seedlings, beans and, especially, in the pods. There is not so much as the Cowhage, Mucuna pruriens, it has been reported as not exceeding 0.5%. There is also the OßD-glucoside of L-dopa present.

Another intriguing compound found in Vicia faba is 4-chloroindolylacetic acid. This was reported at 0.00045% of fresh weight in the beans at 25/26 days after pollination. No indolylacetic acid was detected.

There is no restriction on import for Mucuna but it is little used here. There are a dozen other interesting alkaloids in Mucuna pruriens as well as some cyanide so the result of feeding would be unpredictable, it may stop all production.

Having read the papers these ideas of precursor feeding are based on I don't think a few percent increase of the alkaloid content (ie 0.50% --> 0.51%) would be significant compared to time of day harvested, etc. With fungi it can be significant but not with cacti.

Other species with the same quantities (3-9%) of L-dopa are Mucuna andreana, holtonii, mutisiana, sloanei and urens.

Mucuna holtonii has an acoustic reflector in its flower to help the bat pollinator locate it.

[Guest theobromus]

Disclaimer: This is theory and I'm not getting out of my armchair to test it. Any new combination could kill, though considering the spices and fruit juice I am going to recommend I doubt it is very likely in this case.

Potentiation might be had by taking a large amount (1 gramme + ? Could be a bit too hot) of black pepper (Piper nigrum) which inhibits cytochrome P450. This enzyme is used in the metabolism of a wide spectrum of chemicals, it could actually reduce the effect of ibogaine as it is the metabolite, noribogaine, that is effective in that case.

Grapefruit juice (the bitterer the better) will reduce the activity of cytochrome P450 to a baseline. This will affect some people more than others as everyone has a different level of activity of this group of enzymes. It could be responsible for some of the hardhead/softhead spectrum.

Absorption from the gut can be enhanced by using ginger (Zingiber offinale) or galangal (Alpinia spp). The combination of black pepper, ginger and long pepper (Piper longum) is commonly used in Ayurvedic practice to activate or potentiate other medicines. These three spices also reduce nausea so may also increase absorbtion by giving a little more time for it to happen.

Chili pepper has recently been shown to reduce the absorption of aspirin, though it may act diferently on other chemicals. Other culinary herbs and spices are likely to have some effect, they are generally selected for their appetite tonic effects as well as their flavours.

[Torsten]

Concentration of l-dopa in Mucuna pruriens has been established at ranging from 1.5% in indian samples to 6.4% in columbian samples. Cell supension cultures yielded 0.5 to 2%.

This seems to indicate that the minimum content would be 0.5%.

Vicia faba and Mucuna pruriens are both grown in India, but only Mucuna is used to produce l-dopa commercially there. Vicia faba does not find use in ayurveda for its l-dopa content either, unlike Mucuna pruriens.

[Guest theobromus]

I'll look up that 9% ref for you, shall I?

Vicia also doesn't cause an acute psychosis when used as a famine food. Was my sentence unclear as to the Vicia not exceeding 0.5% L-dopa rather than than Mucuna?

[Torsten]

I had to read it twice before it even dawned on me that I got it wrong. You were obviously (well, at least now it is) referring to Vicia and not Mucuna.

I have a couple of refs citing the 9% for different Mucuna species, thanks.

You wouldn't have any refs for Mucuna gigantea by any chance??

[Guest theobromus]

I only have M. gigantea as an aphrodisiac from one of the two Indian Materia Medicas I have read. The one with the white cover. The one with the dark cover (I can find out the authors if you need) had the root of M. pruriens as a nerve tonic and diuretic.

M. poggei is used by the Yoruba for swelling, pain, fever and invisibility.

[Torsten]

The aphrodisiac properties are also ascribed to M pruriens in india. This is obviously due to the increase in dopamine levels it would cause. This seems to suggest that M gigantea also has a dopamine precursor such as l-dopa. I know this is a pretty loose assumption, but considering that many (most??) of the Mucunas contain l-dopa, it may not be that unreasonable.

I have a few of them here and may give it a try......what was that about writing down what I have ingested and laminating it in case it gets messy