mescalito speaks ?

[Guest tsttantra]

its often stated that people dont consume enough slime for an active dose of its most famous ingredient.this is said to be due to bitterness and texture.is this part of the ordeal nature of the experience.is this mescalitos way of saying if you cant do it,you shouldnt do it.the relative unpleasantness really makes you question how much you want to continue.

t s t .

[Guest wira]

Yes, I'd agree with that. It's a healthy attitude

[M S Smith]

I call this the anthromorphication of a chemical. Not much basis in concentual reality, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Hey, if the boat sinks is that its way of telling you something?

[coin]

this from gottlieb's Peyote and other Psychoactive Cactii

"The most common method of use is simply to chew up and swallow the fresh or dried buttons after removing the tufts and sand. This is the way it is almost always done at Indian ceremonies. Most people find the taste of this cactus unbearably bitter. The Indians, however, feel if ones heart is pure, the bitterness will not be tasted. Many have found that by not cringing from the taste, but rather letting ones senses plunge directly to the center of the bitterness, a sort of seperation from the offensive flavor is experienced. One is aware of the bitterness, but it no longer disturbs him. This is similar to the practice of bringing ones consciousness to the center of pain so that detachment may occur. It is not a difficult trick, but it takes some mental discipline. "

--

i would suggest a method involving hand-mouth co-ordination. with a relaxing aroma, such as mint, still lingering in the nostrils, assume a standing posture best facilitating a motion that effectively projects the liquid down one's throat, thus clearing any appropriately tuned receptors.

gargle if necessary..

alternatively, learn Anapanasati meditation..the biterness will become one's friend

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 23 February 2002).]

[Guest wira]

MS, have you never communicated with plant spirits? What's with your comment about the boat sinking? Please feel free to express your opinions but that came across as quite condescending and closed-minded. Maybe we are just anthropomorphising chemicals as you say, but consider the possibility that you are wrong, that something is going on that you don't understand. I don't think you could prove your point to me in that regard, any more than I could prove mine to you. And since when does so-called consensus reality mean much to any well-worn psychedelic voyager? The consensus reality in a shamanic society is also a far cry from that found in so-called scientific societies; are you saying it is invalid in the light of the 'knowledge' of modern science?

[M S Smith]

Wira, I suppose I am saying that such views are invalid according to modern scientific knowledge. But that doesn't take away the meaning as seen through the eyes of native cultures, something which I highly respect.

Maybe there is something going on that I don't understand. Is my opinion belief as is yours, sure, but that doesn't mean I should use the less logical and untestable of the two options as a belief or that I should stand no ground. You obviously stand ground, but only on the other side than I. What would we be if we stood in the middle and held nothing close to our hearts for fear that we may be wrong or have no way to prove our points? Personally I don’t like to have a dialog to convince others my points are correct. I much prefer to lead others to better challenge what they believe through pointing out inconsistencies if they are willing to listen.

Certainly my statements where not intended to be condescending, and I apologize to any who may have considered them so. In fact I was really just attempting to be light-hearted. Maybe "floats your boat" was the wrong choice of words. But what it meant was exactly what you want, the ability to believe as you wish. That I grant all with no negative thoughts or opinions.

As for the boat sinking well it is just a simile; if the plant spirit tells you not to eat it by being bitter to your taste, etc., so then is the boat telling you not to sail it by springing a leak? Or is the plant just bitter and the boat just leaking. I suppose I should have responded to tsttantra by simply saying that it is just the "nature of the experience." Hopefully I would not have been considered closed-minded if I would have said that, but I fear I would have.

But I will stand behind a more critical examination of what occurs within the psychedelic experience. And no, I have never communicated with a plant spirit, I have only communicated with my own self with the assistance of chemicals that exist within plants. And as for consensus reality, most, even "well-worn psychedelic voyager(s)," exist more in it than out of it.

Sincerely,

Michael

[This message has been edited by M S Smith (edited 24 February 2002).]

[Guest ramulosa]

Can't remeber where I read it years ago, but I saw an article with some stuff about this.

The suggestion in the article was that (at least in this case) the traditonal view was that the bitterness of the Peyote, was representative of the bitterness in life. (paralelling a Buddhist perspective on the suffering humans endure through life?, as much through our own wild expectations)

Though with long experience and learning from the Peyote, it becomes sweet to the taste to those who have grasped something of the nature of the world and the human condition.

Not that I know from actual taste myself, but Peyote is apparently even more bitter than San Pedro.

[woof woof woof]

Just something I'd like to add to ramulosa's "the bitterness of the Peyote, was representative of the bitterness in life"

... heard it from a colluege....

"Life is suffering, Surviving is finding meaning in the suffering."

[woof woof woof]

I call this the anthromorphication of a chemical. Not much basis in concentual reality, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Hey, if the boat sinks is that its way of telling you something? QOUTE MSSMITH.

Not direcly the boat trying to tell you something.... I would think?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Guest wira]

Thanks MS, that makes your point clearer. No hard feelings

you wrote:

"What would we be if we stood in the middle and held nothing close to our hearts for fear that we may be wrong or have no way to prove our points?"

That's a good position to be in, no doubt. I said what I said because I perceived your initial post as ridiculing my point of view. I believe that I do communicate with plants, and that plants communicate with us when we are open enough to listen, whether ingesting them or not, so I took your statements as slyly saying that such a notion is deluded. I respect you right to believe that it is deluded. I just had a problem with the perceived manner in which you stated your belief.

"if the plant spirit tells you not to eat it by being bitter to your taste, etc., so then is the boat telling you not to sail it by springing a leak? Or is the plant just bitter and the boat just leaking."

Maybe my initial post was misleading. I don't see it as the boat not telling you to sail; I do see it as the plant saying something like "if you want to eat me and share in what I have to offer you, you will have to demonstrate your spirit and resolve by getting through my nauseating bitterness" Also I don't mean to suggest that this would be the sole reason for the taste of the plant, but I do think it is something relevant to the plant-human relationship going on here.

"I suppose I should have responded to tsttantra by simply saying that it is just the "nature of the experience." Hopefully I would not have been considered closed-minded if I would have said that, but I fear I would have."

Not from me, because put that way, I also agree with you I don't see why what I said above and 'it's the nature of the experience' have to be mutually exclusive, even if we do both see it from a different perspective.

"And as for consensus reality, most, even "well-worn psychedelic voyager(s)," exist more in it than out of it."

Of course they do, otherwise they wouldn't get around to eating or doing anything much

But I think many of them, while still existing largely in consensus reality, would be aware that the consensus reality is only part of the deal, and that we know a lot less than what we don't know.

[Guest tsttantra]

as a tantrist,i believe all experience is god/godess communicating with us.is there anything else?but mainly i seem to inhabit amultiverse in which different realities are superimposed on each other.so i use what works,when it works.

do we all read castenada etc,and hope to meet mescalito on our first visit,only to loose 'faith' when he doesnt appear for usafter afew tries.

mescalito was an attention grabing medium for this post,which was ment to challenge people to confront the situation being discribed,in the hope they break threashold.

[M S Smith]

Now that we got some of that cleared up....

I'm glad to see us all so gracious, that's what I like about this place.

As for the whole belief thing, believe as you wish, I won't stop you no doubt. Really, as long as you live an ethical and moral life and treat others as you would have them treat you (a Zorastrian, Bhuddist, and Jesusonian concept) then you are fine with me and with whatever it is out there that we all place in a slightly different mold.

As for me personally I experience the Universal in my daily life through good living. Breaking through is not a necessity as breaking through indicates rapidity and rapidity is often too much of a jolt to be healthy for the soul. It is best to please the universe by living fully according to our present understanding of what it means to be a good individual. And as our understanding grows so do we. Peace.

[This message has been edited by M S Smith (edited 25 February 2002).]