SEX

[Hagakure]

im pretty sure most people will open this post due to its title.

seems like sex is used to sell everything these days - count how many ads are using sex or good looking women to make you want their product.

more and more i am thinking this is having a rofound effect on the devaluing of the beauty of the female form etc.

i accidently found this site here which has brought all of my thoughts to the surface.

http://nymetro.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

so i figure i am going to not view any more porn - its educational sure but i aint gonna learn much new stuff by continuing to view.

once again i am pissed off that i am doing something the fucking conservatives push.

first i gave up drinking to excess now i am giving up porn.

at least i still have the fun chems.

[Torsten]

There are many ways that subjugate or disrespect women. To me however is not the porn itself, but rather what happens in the porn.

It is easy for conservatives to say that porn has a negative effect on the image of women and vice versa, marketing guys that way would have the same effect. So obviously it must be bad because men are doing it to women and women are doing it to men.

But what about men doing it to men? It's no secret that I am gay and I also don't hide the fact that I like porn. So how does the above argument fit when the object of denegration is your own gender? It doesn't and hence it is not a matter of porn itself, but a matter of the content in porn.

Porn can be simply the depiction of people having fun for the purpose of other watching. I personally don't like porn that makes anyone look inferior.

So, whether someone watches gay porn or straight porn, it is not the porn that is the issue, but rather the image the scene depicts.

The problem with straight porn is that guys want to see 'slutty and submissive' women. And obviously it is always the man who gets to say what to do next - kinda with the constant underlying theme of "... take THAT bitch".

Sure there is some porn where the women take charge, but honestly, how many guys are turned on by powerpussies rather than dimbo-bimbos?

So to me the porn debate is quite simple. There is nothing wrong with porn itself, but there is something very wrong with the imagery and context it projects. The most effective way to change this is to put your $$ towards decent porn and let maeket forces take care of it. Sadly, that won't achieve much because our society is still a deeply entrenched patriarchy with little change on the horizon.

[orsolya]

There is also the question weather sex is viewed as a means towards something more complex (whatever that would be for each of us), or it is THE GOAL. Apparently genetical programming also has its say in this, see "men are from Mars and women from Venus" So it is Nature? It is Nurture? Or just plainly Porno Nurture? Accepting emotional risks and vulnerability... Some say: Why bother?

[nabraxas]

So it is Nature? It is Nurture? Or just plainly Porno Nurture? well, it "is" some part nature, some part nuture & some part porno nuture

Accepting emotional risks and vulnerability... Some say: Why bother? --because not accepting just makes one more vulnerable? maybe.

[112358Hz]

Does anyone think that porn's popularity and content has anything to do with or is relative to the fact that we're fairly sexually repressed as a society? I mean that in the sense that most of us grow up and are conditioned to think that sex is not something to be talked about openly or freely. As a society, I think we're fairly imature about sex still (not everyone of course). Thank the church maybe?. It still feels to me that lots of people need to mature or evolve their views on sex.

?

[Rune]

great, hagakure. don't worry about doing something the conservatives push. it doesn't matter who's doing what.

I've tried lots of times to give up porn. I used to get so pissed off that I was drawn back to it like a slave every time. and a slave is exactly what the porn industry wants you to be, too.

I've finally made a proper break (so far). I've found I've been much happier not fueling the desire. like you said, most people will have clicked on the thread title because of the word SEX. I'm starting to become clearer about my reasons for choosing to do certain things - am I doing this to satisfy a sexual urge? I find that if I stop my curiosity at this stage, my feelings don't build to something so out of control that I just 'have' to see something 'dirty'.

it's also very empowering to know that you have it in you to say no to what is trying to be such a strong temptation and large part of your life.

porn is an industry where everyone is only out for temporary satisfaction. it enourages greed and indifference. it's never enough. it seems the power in this world is most readily available to the ones who are prepared to live with the least morals.

some people are hopelessly addicted to porn. some don't care that they are. the people that hate it but can't leave it get my sympathy.

if it is not love, what is the good of it?

[ 12. September 2005, 05:35: Message edited by: Rune ]

[Hagakure]

i should say that i dont think pron really degrades women that much. you can get some pretty decent stuff where the female is enjoying it. i think its a myth that all men want submissive sluts - i personally dont.

the issue here is not my view of women. porn is like violence in video games - you dont see it as reality (except perhaps thinking about the lives of the people in it).

the issue that interests me is a constant exposure to sex in our culture generally making the act itself less mysterious, less special.

i remember the days long ago when seeing a nipple in a fashion magazine was a big deal :D

so yeah this isnt a preach but an experiment. will also try not to watch advertisments on TV (i dont watch too much TV anyway so that shouldnt be a problem)

will report on any noticeable effects.

[ 12. September 2005, 05:49: Message edited by: Hagakure ]

[Rune]

as passive as porn gets, I think it degrades any person, man or woman who is willing to have themselves caught on film and masturbated over by millions.

and I think that it acts to cheapen feelings towards people.

[ 12. September 2005, 07:02: Message edited by: Rune ]

[faustus]

the coolidge effect -- the renewal of sexual activity in the male after the introduction of a new sexual partner.

you aren't a slave to porn any more than you are a slave to your own biology. i think there's a partial truth to what's being said here in this thread, but there seems to be an underlying sense of guilt about shooting your load left, right and centre. dead set, do you really think our species would've have made it if males weren't thinking about sex every 8 seconds?

[Hagakure]

i got no guilt about horniness or shooting my load. dont have much of a problem with most porn in itself either.

way i see it is if you see thousands of vaginas in cyberspace the ones seen in real life become that much less magical.

[Rune]

this isn't about the species of man 'making it'.

you could say weeds 'make it' because they have no morals. beautiful plants never sacrifice their beauty - even in the face of death. if they are not given love, they will not stoop to desperate means of survival.

I think mankind has to face the fact that there is not a lot of love going around on this planet - and pornography is just one example of where basic instincs are taking control at the cost of true feelings of warmth towards one another.

doesn't this make good reason to step back and think about how we can go about getting our minds and eventually our hearts to a state where we don't see each other as targets for our own frustrations?

I'm not just talking about porn, but also they way people treat each other in general.

I know I'm off the topic of this post, and I'm bringing spirituality into this forum. so, sorry for that. I'll stop here - but just after I add that I have this sense of surety about what I am saying, and I can't bear to have the importance of a topic like this lost. I think it deserves more consideration than most people are willing to give it.

[Torsten]

Rune, who do you think ha more appreciation for beauty? the guy who whacks off to porn before going socialising, or the guy who heads out into a social situation with hormones raging?

Hormones make you go blind to the bigger picture and getting them out of the way is a good way to really appreciate much more. Simply suppressing hormones (ie desires) is like trying to shut out emotions. Eventually it will catch up.

[faustus]

 

quote:

---

this isn't about the species of man 'making it'. you could say weeds 'make it' because they have no morals.

that our obsession with sex is essential to our survival says nothing about whether or not it's right. instead, to reminds you that over the course of x millions of years, powerful mechanisms have become hardwired into us.

can you overcome your biological programming? some would say yes, and point to the yogis etc. then again, just look at the catholic church and sexual abuse.

as for basic instinct at the cost of feelings of warmth for other people: i'd say that's in part, just a healthy flood of oxytocin, which gets released after sex, and at childbirth. gotta love evolution.

[coin]

i agree with the gist of what rune is saying..

it's not a matter of dangerously suppressing desires.

hormones don't necessarily make you blind..you always have a choice, but obviously the ability to exercise it is based upon the level of self-awareness (the ability to recognise the mental phenomena and the potential consequences, as they arise but before they get out of hand) and self-control (the ability to regulate, redirect or transform the train of thought) you've developed, along with insight, and a lot of learning from experience.

if you have adrenalin coursing through your body, you won't do any great damage to yourself by exercising self-restraint and holding off punching someone's head in because that person's behavior (in your mind) set's them up as a target for you to project your own frustrations. (that's if you even feel a need to rationalise violence - "he asked for it" rather than just "i felt like it")

it's just a matter of finding a healthy outlet for these impulses while at the same time consciously developing greater self control.

so if you consider pornography is that healthy outlet - fine. but that's where insight is required. is that activity strengthening mental reactions that will hold you back somehow? i won't bother with my personal thoughts on that..

to say that getting the hormones out of the way allows you to better appreciate bigger-picture beauty, or however that was said, implies already the mental associations that are established and reinforced by pornography.

[ 14. September 2005, 15:08: Message edited by: coin ]

[Benzedrine]

I cannot follow people's logic that pornography is degrading. Since pornography is a reflection of peoples desires and therefore only reflects the private thoughts of the individual. Degradation is saying that something is less then it is or less then it is generally thought to be. A person's thoughts on this subject are their desires to carry out the action in real life but an action is merely an event. It is completely neutral on it's own only your perception of degradation is of importance, another might view what took place in the pornography, in a totally different light.

Personally I think quitting pornography would be entirely pointless if one isn't prepared to start eliminating ones own sexual thoughts. Since if the virtual reflection of those thoughts that is pornography is immoral, how much more so must the real human thoughts be. However you cannot turn off those thoughts as the human body is geared towards seeking sexual encounters and you would either fail or repress an important part of humanity.

In short why look at the reflection of people's desire's and not simply look at the people staring into the mirror.

[ 14. September 2005, 15:19: Message edited by: Benzedrine ]

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Benzedrine:

I cannot follow people's logic that pornography is degrading.

I actually agree that pornography can be degrading and a lot of it is in fact degrading. But this is as you say yourself due to the fact that we are holding up a mirror to a society that in the majority has degrading fantasies. My point was that I disagree with the assumption that the concept of pornography itself is degrading.

For example, if you have two people having sex where both have fun and both are enjoying themselves equally, then this is not a degrading relationship and hence a video capture of this act is not degrading and furthermore anyone watching the video is not degrading. However, if you have Mr macho supercock nailing Ms Bimbo secretary in every position *HE* wants, then the act is degrading and the video is likewise.

My argument does run into a bit of trouble when you enter fetish territory, where submission is actually the theme, not just a byproduct. But I can't believe that 90% of the male population is into dom/sub scene, as one would expect from the general themes in most porn.

btw, is it just me or is there no straight porn with young guys? I mean, there is all this (18+) teen porn, but the guys are always in their late 20's at least. The youngest I've found was about mid 20's, but maybe they just looked a bit young for their age. Isn't that also the typical dominance/control thing that I am lamenting above?

In gay porn there are two distinct genres. One is the older type 'here take this' type of porn, while the other is the younger (and more recent) 'let's fool around' type porn. The former is very much like straight porn in that it sets up an agressor and a victim. The latter type often has really bad story acting, but for the most part the scenarios are pretty much how they happen in real life. Gay porn might be different simply because it doesn't have the gender issues which again points to a problem in our patriarchal/dominator culture rather than a problem with porn.

Maybe we can't talk about porn as a single entity. Maybe we need to separate it into 'snag-porn' (sensitive new age guy) and .... other. Just like a lot of naked photography is art rather than porn, maybe playful porn is more like reality TV

[coin]

there may be no 'theme' of degradation in the gay twink porn, but ultimately it's just a business for someone, and of course there is degradation/exploitation at some level

[ 15. September 2005, 01:52: Message edited by: coin ]

[Rune]

I don't think there is such a thing as capturing the act of making true love on video. the moment the tape starts rolling (unless it's filmed by some voyeur pervert without the lovers' knowledge) it becomes just sex.

my issue is with sex. I don't think there is a place for it in a world that is truly at peace. also there is no place for 'wanking' or 'beating off'. to me these are almost violent terms. I don't know if I can explain why I say that, I think it's just something you would have to read and go 'hmmm yeah I guess...possibly...'.

of course to take all these forms of (psuedo) release away and not replace them with something (preferably better) would be disaster for mankind.

twix elbert, your point about the problems seen in the catholic church illustrate this perfectly.

think of these words and decide whether they fit nicely in the groups I've put them:

group 1

sex ... fucking ... voyeurism ... wanking ... hard-on ... cunt ... slutty ... smack that bitches arse hard!!! ... PORN ... big mac ... I'm lovin' it ... just do it ... billionaire ... coke (coca-cola) ... smog ... global warming ... chaos.

group 2

love ... peace ... harmony ... love-making ... care ... affection ... soft kisses ... private masturbation ... innocence ... gentle arousal ... patience ... apple juice ... banana smoothie ... trees ... respect.

the first group is lust, the second group represents aspects of love.

it's a matter of how far you believe we have to remove ourselves from habits we are currently in to be surrounded by nothing but an atmoshere of good, clean, positive energy.

so taping yourself in the act of having a root and having it ogled over by millions of horny bastards is definitly not a peaceful world. I would love for someone to tell me it is.

but is, say, taping yourself with someone you are in love with and giving (not selling) it to a good friend so that he or she may enjoy in private still going too far (we're talking about a world of PEACE here. REAL PEACE).

I say it is. I say peace is peace. goodness is goodness. wrong is wrong. ok, we are human. sure, we're allowed to make mistakes. even in a peaceful world. why not? we're still fallable humans. but it is still a mistake. only the tiniest tiniest mistake. you could say 'so what, I made a tiny mistake, I'll just get on with my life and forget about it'. but what right do you have to live in a world of pure peace and make a mistake that you haven't cleared with your conscience? if you don't clear your conscience, you will live with that tiny tiny regret, and it will lead to worse things. lead to destruction.

this is what I believe. take this or leave it, but please at least make it food for thought.

[Hagakure]

apparently there is a big push in the porn world to address the issues people are raisning. i think it basically comes down to who makes this porn?

previously womanising assholes i'll bet hence the domination aspect.

nowdays you get porn from the more creative types realising if this is done well a lot of money can be made.

i should say that i have no desire to remove sexual thoughts or reduce hormones whatsoever with my abstaining from porn. the intent is to make em stronger :D

my theory is that porn is desensitising. read that article in my first post - kinda where i am coming from (no pun intended).

we are so saturated by images of naked and semi naked women in the media alone, let alone porn, that its just not as special.

[Rev]

desensitisation can be good or bad

its good when it means you can see a woman and see past her gender to see whes a person fisrt and a woman second - if that makes sense

its bad when straight sex becomes dull, and so does hardcore sex, and then so does normal fetishes

its a danger zone if u fiund urself only getting turned on by exploitative and degrading or taboo pornography

time to turn it off and reconnect with people

[Rune]

rev, yeah I think that's part of the reason I'm turning off the porn which until you've just mentioned it I haven't quite managed to explain: that it means I'm starting to see people more as human.

people think, and for a long time I thought, that if you deny yourself of porn, your mind is only going to make little porn movies anyway. but that's not true. you don't have to succumb to those thoughts. you can make images in your mind that are not porn. for one thing the images in your mind can be not of an actual person - so you're not assisting in the degradation of some poor naive young girl or boy who was sweet-talked into a vicious industry by all sorts of bribes. and another thing, is that you would be surprised that you can become sexually aroused just by the fact that you are so sexually aroused! and you can turn the arousal onto yourself.

[Talby]

Most so-called reality TV is really, for the viewer, bad porn without the sex...getting off on watching people get degraded. I think the degradation is the moral problem with any of this, not the sex.

[Hagakure]

degradation is dependent upon both the person performing the act and the viewer thinking it is degrading.

some alternative porn stars love sex, have no probs getting paid to have sex with someone they desire anyway. the viewer at home may not feel at all guilty about watching a very sexy performance.

i dont think that its degrading just because its sexual. the context etc is important.

the problem is not a moral issue with the sex but the effects of seeing so much sex IMO

[Rev]

Motives speak louder than actions which speak louder than words

only the person watching the porn really knows why the are watching what they get from it.

2 people can do the same thing and yet have very diff motives

[Hagakure]

stumble upon popped up with this today

thought i would add it to this post

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/pornoff.html