Entheogen Combination Matrix

[saguaro]

I was looking at this 'Entheogen Combination Matrix' (https://www.entheogenesis.org/entheogen-combination-matrix). Does anyone know why combining kratom and coca leaf would be considered a significant risk?

 

The only suggestion to this effect I've found is from a review which states "According to secondary sources, there have been reports of concomitant use of cocaine with Mitragyna speciosa causing overstimulation or elevated blood pressure."¹ The same results from abusing cocaine independently of kratom, and coca leaf and cocaine are two different beasts.

 

I doubt you risk incurring harm from this combo beyond a sore jaw from chewing, let alone significant harm. 

 

Does anyone agree, or have thoughts on this topic? Am I missing something?

 

 

1 - Ulbricht, C., Costa, D., Dao, J., Isaac, R., LeBlanc, Y. C., Rhoades, J., & Windsor, R. C. (2013). An Evidence-Based Systematic Review of Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) by the Natural Standard Research Collaboration. Journal of Dietary Supplements, 10(2), 152–170. doi:10.3109/19390211.2013.7935

[Needfulalterego]

Yeah that's a weird one. Even at the most extreme examples of people who mix cocaine and heroin, there is still nothing inherently contraindicated with that particular combo besides that both are dangerous enough on their own and thus combined becomes risky due to masking of the effects of the other for short periods of time which can be dangerous in scenarios where the amount of CNS depression is severe and apparent 10 mins later when the coke wears off.

So nothing vascular/CNS coming to mind.. nothing in the neurotransmitters like other risky combos involving serotonin makes sense, and nothing really I can think of in terms of liver enzymes either that is immediately dangerous i.e. one isn't going to cause the other to end up in toxic levels from liver metabolism pathway changes.

This looks to be the only reference on the topic and it's kinda baseless. Nothing wrong with telling people it's not a safe idea from common sense alone but the arguments listed are thin at best.

 

[fyzygy]

It's bioregionally incorrect. Or maybe just bad economics. YMMV. 

[saguaro]

On 04/01/2024 at 9:55 AM, Needfulalterego said:

 Even at the most extreme examples of people who mix cocaine and heroin, there is still nothing inherently contraindicated with that particular combo besides that both are dangerous enough on their own ... Nothing wrong with telling people it's not a safe idea from common sense alone but the arguments listed are thin at best.

 

Mitragynine's competitive inhibition of CYP3A4 has interaction potential with cocaine. You're right it's probably best to caution against it from a common sense perspective

 

19 hours ago, fyzygy said:

It's bioregionally incorrect. Or maybe just bad economics. YMMV. 

 

That's pretty funny, but surely someone out there has chewed coca and kratom leaf (and lived too tell the tale!).

Edited January 5 by saguaro

[RonnySimulacrum]

While we know of people who have consumed coca leaf and kratom without experiencing harm, a core design principle for the matrix is being risk averse. As Needfulalterego has mentioned, a core risk for opioid and cocaine combinations is of effects masking one another, which can lead to increased dosage and unintended overdose.

 

While it is unlikely for people to lethally overdose with plant material, some people may use the entheogen combination matrix to understand the risk of concentrated plant products. Extracted coca leaf and extracted kratom carry a greater chance of overdose. This is our reasoning for categorising the risk of kratom and coca combinations in this way.

 

If you have any studies or other good sources of info we should use to review this assessment, pass it on.