A.anisopetala ponderings

[katu]

Hey all,

For some time now i've been trying without much luck to research whether this plant actually has any true use from an ethnobotanical stand point.

It seems to me that apart from a few vague reports on Nexus, which when read closely, seem IMHO unreliable at best, that the only persons actually claiming that it has been used traditionally are the oversees vendors flogging the root bark, and one local nursery selling live plants, that does nothing other than vaguely refer to internet forums.

When you look at websites which are devoted to botany and/or nomenclature their is no mention whatsoever of any indigenous usage of this liana.

Was wondering if anyone has come across any legitimate papers or has any knowledge other than the general air of speculation that seems to surround this vine.

I'm not saying that it doesn't have a history of indigenous usage, nor am I convinced that it does, am merely trying to start a conversation about this somewhat mysterious Malpighiaceae.

[Anodyne]

Good question! Just to clarify though, are you asking about activity, or traditional use?

[katu]

Hey Anodyne, thanks for your reply!

To clarify am wondering if it has any use as an ethnobotanical in any form from an indigenous point of view, so yes purely traditional use.

If it is an admixture am not interested in whether it adds to any form of activity, just that it is indeed an admixture. Or if it has any other medicinal use.

I'm just trying to get clarification on whether or not it is a traditionally employed ethnobotanical plant in any form.

In years past there has been a massive surge of somewhat dodgy oversees vendors offering various sorts of unsustainably harvested plant material of various natures. These business IMHO are purely profit driven and are playing their part in the destruction of the Amazon. So I would not put it past them to sell a product, claiming for nothing other than fiscal reasons that it has been used for whatever said purpose.

There is also the possibility that at sometime in the field there has been a miscommunication or misidentification between a traditional guide and a ethnobotanist resulting in misinformation. We may or may not of seen this before like in the case of P.carthagenensis (Schultes&Hofmann, 1992)

Or finally that it is a traditionally employed ethnobotanical plant in one way or another.

These are merely the whimsical ponderings of a amatuer plant head

But yes, to reiterate, am merely interested in its use as an Ethnobotanical plant.

Edit:spelling/wording

Edited August 30, 2015 by katu

[gtarman]

If this is what's generally referred to as "Black Ayahuasca" or "Black Caapi", from memory I've heard from somebody who tried it that it's actually a quite dark and intense experience, I think they said that despite being widespread in South America, it wasn't used traditionally for this reason - and was associated with black magic and evil witchcraft.

Whether or not that's true, who knows but it makes sense to me. I doubt that the indiginous folks didn't know of it or hadn't tried it. To me it seems plausible that it just wasn't an experience that was valuable or desirable, or at least not in the same way as traditional Ayahuasca.

[Paradoxical]

I did watch a talk given by Raph Borges and David Nickles last year, about chromatography and mass spectrometry analyses preformed on a number of plants including A. anisopetala.

Here is a link to the video

http://disinfo.com/2015/04/vines-minds-dmt-nexus-aya2014/

They mention that in their analyses Alicia anisopetala was not found to contain any harmala alkaloids, despite being used in similar manners to Banisteriopsis caapi.

[katu]

Thanks for your reply's guys!

Gtarman, mate I completely agree with you in that it is indeed plausable that it has been utilised in some way, but the only referance I can find in it being used in the method you mention is in one thread on Nexus. In that same thread there are also some contradictory posts in terms of activity. Also, a plant showing some activity doesn't necessarily automatically qualify it as having a history of indigenous useage, and vise versa. I'm not saying forums aren't a great source of knowledge but despite the recent interest in Aya from various disciplines of science ranging from Med. Chem. Anthropology and so on I can not find one legitamate paper of it having any history of Ethnobotanical use. That said indigenous plant knowledge in the Amazon could be argued to surpass plant knowledge of virtually any other culture, and i'd take one dudes word who has spent time amongst the indiginous Amazonians over a bag full of Scientists.

Thanks for that link Paradoxical, I have heard it tested negative for beta carboline Alkaloids. haven't time to watch it now but will in the next day or so and post back.

Thanks again guys, I do love this forum

[rahli]

Hey katu,

Let me know if you are keen to look further into this vine.

Recent flowers -

Edited September 20, 2015 by rahli

[gtarman]

I was just thinking based on your post that if you're really interested it might be worth trying to reach out to some Amazon-based locals and shamans who may be contactable to enquire about it. Like you said, they'd probably be more likely to know than scientists...surely someone on here has connections out that way, or maybe you could email one of the aya retreats or something?