MY IBOGA SEEDS STARTING TO SPROUT!!! :-)

[pete34]

MY IBOGA SEEDS STARTING TO SPROUT!!! :-)

I bought a pod from shaman-australis a while ago and put the seeds (13) in small pots and those in 2 seed germination humidity thingy's on a single bed hot blanket (on full bore all the time) and a tarp same size as the hot blanket, i bought both new for only $35 and its a big heat mat mate, i put it near the window but tuck them in at night (fold the tarp and hot blanket over them so they are really warm at night) eh eh

i have a thermoeter sitting on a pot so i can see air temp through plastic seed germination humidity tank its stays about 30c

and its the seeds i gave a giberalic acid seed soak so i will soak the others

iboga has the same active ingredient as the tree of life and it allows us to re-live/analyse this life like we do in the spirit world, this allows very fast evolution as we are here to learn/evolve we learn what the lessons are and a lot more

higher evolution means a better life in this and the next lives

i hope i posted in the right section, its not important enough for the news section eh eh

Salome

Peter

[∂an]

sounds cool man, should post some pics. maybe the ethnobotany section is better?

[Foo]

Probs an ethno thing. But i could see how it fits here

I too would love to see some pics. Congratz on the sproutz

[ErraneousHerbalist]

Congratulations on the sprouts! I too would love a picture ;)

[pete34]

Thanks guys i am excited

i will do pics and post in ethno and post the link to ethno thread here

Peter

[Darklight]

MY IBOGA SEEDS STARTING TO SPROUT!!! :-)

i have a thermoeter sitting on a pot so i can see air temp through plastic seed germination humidity tank its stays about 30c

and its the seeds i gave a giberalic acid seed soak so i will soak the others

 

Hey Pete that's awesome! Congratulations and thanks for posting

I've been throwing a lot of time at iboga seed germination barriers the last couple of years and I reckon there is a PhD for someone who takes a serious look at the mechanisms- there is more than one, but a simple solution could be possible as well

It's great you put the air temps up there as well as the temp the heat mat is set on ( I reckon about 40C for the commercial ones )- air temps and soil temps can vary widely in colder climates even with heat mats, and the differences can be critical

Can you tell me how much gibberellic acid was in your solution, whether it was a water solution or alcohol, and how long you soaked it for? Was it at room temperature?

How many of the 13 seed you sowed have germinated, and how many weeks after sowing did they start? Are they complete or partial germinations ( partial germinations are occasions where the stem pushes up out of the earth but the first true leaves never extend fully, or variations thereof )

All the best and thanks for sharing your experience

[pete34]

G'day Darklight

My thoughts

the 3 seeds sprouting so far i did an experiment with (as i had 13 seeds)

using a box cutter i cut the barky seed coat off at varying degrees from 30% to 50% of the seed so i could see the white part of the seed, do 2 cuts along one side of the seed then as you rub the box cutter point or blade across the seed the bark layer is like cork so you dont actually cut deep as it comes away like cork, do same on the other side, once you get in you can pick at it, i left the ends of the seed alone

planted mid april

sprout 8-9th june

1000ppm GA3 for 24hrs on heat mat, ph6.5, water solution, would have used stronger ga3 if i had it

its the seeds i cut open that are sprouting

i did different soil, sand, perlite mix's, 2cm deep/wide hole with sphagnum peat moss covering over/around the seeds like a plug but so a seed can pop through or not tight but stops the light,(so i can lift the moss to have a look and whisper sweet things in its ear eh eh :-)

i dont touch em once sprouting starts

spray ph 6 to 6.5 water twice most days (at least once a day), i dont ph test i just ad 1 to 2ml of brown vinegar per litre, moss over the seed should also change ph

the only problem i see is if the seed coat dosnt break free now they are sprouting but i read thats common, you have to cut 1mm a day until its off, they are partial germination atm, if i need to cut it wont be much as i cut it prior to sprouting

i think the way is to remove the seed coat around the widest part of the seed (try with no seeds soak and 2 day seed soak prior) but probably not the tips of the seed,they should sprout faster (do a ga3 soak then also so it gets in fast) and the seed coat will pop off easiest when they sprout, i will let you know how we go and how many fully develop

i ordered the pod late march from shaman then 2 weeks for delivery, i planted the seeds 1 week after i received, i left the pod in sphagnum peat at room temp until the top of the pod had a black circle as it seemed more natural doing it that way, if they dont get eaten they would rot in nature, both would release chemicals onto the seed.

one of the seeds today floated in the ga3 and opened 1/2 mm when i was going to cut it so its probably dead, it was smaller

a few more seeds i cut 30% of the coat off

Darklight can you try some seeds with varying amounts of seed coat removed up to 90% ? try 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% to see how much can be removed?

i have seeds that havnt sprouted and i only just removed the coat yesterday, if you have seeds handy you will see its easier than it sounds,i was confident and let them know i was going to help them so they can help me, had good thoughts for my babies while cutting the coat off eh eh

i dont think temp is critical but definitely needs warm 25 to 40c, mine fluctuate depends if i have the heater on atm

Iboga is the most important plant even more than dmt and dreaming plants, i think the times of the year old societies used plants stopped abuse of plants

there would be an easy way to pot iboga,a plastic garbage bin cut in half (maybe full size as they get older) with big holes and slits in the bottom then put it on another garbage bin of dirt

any ideas/thoughts? i would be keen to know please

Salome (Sal-om-ay)

Peter

[Darklight]

Hey Pete

Many thanks for your excellent notes, they are really good quality and will help lots of people

My situation re germination isn't comparable as I am germinating the seed in tissue culture- and haven't had much luck. Certainly not enough to get data to report results. What's interesting me is what *isn't* working here where I am.

Please note that I am also using mature seed from ripe, freshly opened pods harvested approx 2 weeks prior, with the stem included ( so that pathogens don't enter the fruit end from the pod tissue damaged by removing the stem- not normally a consideration for horticultural applications but important for aseptic ones ). I'm interested in the mechanism of germination inhibition and these pods are gifted from a local tree whose seeds I know are viable in the ground.

Please also note that all my results below are for seed that is sterilised, either pretreatment or post treatment. I believe there are significant complex reactions taking place during germination which are difficult to replicate reliably in the absence of horticultural conditions. Some of the reactions which would normally take place in the ground could be compromised by my use of the sterilants, but aseptic is required for the purpose of the experiments and IME the application of treatments post sterilisation can often compromise the sterility, or at least reduce aseptically germinated numbers to the point where data is meaningless, so sterility is best done last thing before putting on plates or in tubes.

Hence whatever residual chemicals may reside in the seed coat or the seed itself after a treatment soak could be inactive after sterilisation ( usually 1.5% bleach, with 3 water rinses ), and it could be that these residual chemical reactions are what drives germination so I could be shooting myself in the foot

I've tried a few seed soak treatments, and beyond swelling the uptake seems limited at room temperature and sometimes above. For example, smoke water paper is impregnated with a green colouring, which goes into solution once the paper is soaked. At +36 hours at room temp no colouring had penetrated the coat and I've no idea whether the actives made it into the seed or into the coat or even just sat on the coat. I've nil germination in this batch at 35C at +14 days, and had considerable bacterial contamination as I treated the seed with smoke water post-sterilisation. Neutralising the contamination may have also neutralised any residual smoke water chems

Up to a 36 hr soak of entire ( unbroken ) seed in a food colouring solution got nil penetration. I soaked the seed in the food colouring in H2O, 70% ethanol and 100% ethanol solutions and checked every few hours.

The seed in the ethanol solutions dessicated in variance with the amount of ethanol used, and rehydrated in the food colouring solution just fine, but no colouring penetration at all.

Possibly I should have used a higher concentration of food colouring- 30uL blue colouring to 15ml H2O/ 70% ETOH/ 100% ETOH gives a distinct and bright tint to the solution but might be less visible in smaller areas inside the seed, or used a different colour ( maybe red would have shown up better and I should repeat the experiment with that ). When cut open, all the seed coats, seed inner and embryos remained firm throughout the experiment and the embryos remained white and entire

Testing with Tetrazolium chloride 1% in H2O of entire seed showed nil penetration for up to 8 days at both 40C and room temp. Cutting the broad end of the seed and re-immersing in the same solution gave gradual penetration at room temp- think 0.25mm a day from the cut end. The colour of the penetrated tissue is a distinct pink in this case, and tissue is healthy and looks viable by the standard of that test even after that time

Previous years I've aseptically removed seed coat ( anything from just a nick to 100% removal ) from freshly sterilised and +2 week sown seed ( which is an absolute bastard of a job ) and had a few successes randomly at 40C, but not in numbers or media which could allow me to draw any conclusions

The seed coat is remarkably impermeable and resilient, and maybe the inner tissue as well. Last night I placed some in a Tetrazolium chloride 1% solution and vacuumed them to up to 20inHg with a brake bleeder and sidearm flask. Bubbles formed extensively but didn't rise from the seed surface. I released the vacuum as soon as I saw this as I'd had some trouble with the brake bleeder piston so they'd sat at 10-15in Hg for several mintues and I thought the seed'd be mush. But at +8 hours at room temp in the dark ( all TTZ rxns are in the dark ) there is nil penetration or colouring of solution and the seeds I've cut open are firm and entire etc.

If they don't colour up tonight I'm going to try to test a few to destruction under vacuum, both time and strength of vacuum, to see if I can get through to them

As a comparison, Acacia sp seed which were soaked in boiling H2O overnight showed distinct embryo colouration at +6 hours with 1% TTZ at room temp and no vacuum- this is pretty standard for a lot of spp

I do believe you're right about temperature not being critical- some early results here show that it isn't, but temperature probably drives a few seed reactions when sown in soil and so higher temps are better when planting for your garden- this is just an observation at this point, hopefully data will follow

I've seen a few multi-stage partial germinations in-vitro, like a stop/go thing, so it seems that the catalysts for progress can be many, but they seem to need to take place in a particular order or time. Just because iboga pauses mid germination doesn't mean it's finished. Sometimes too much of one thing, at the wrong stage, can lead to the seed stopping part way through and not completing, or rotting. I haven't explored this systematically, but it's potentially interesting

Germination processes are complex, friends, in all species, even for those which are simple to germinate under horticultural conditions. There's a lot going on in there at all phases of iboga germination and a better understanding of the complexity gives me a deeper appreciation of life. For me, it's really beautiful

Thanks *so* much to you pete, it's contributions like yours which remind people that good science is a pursuit open to everyone, for the love of it. I personally appreciate your help

Thanks also to the lovely people ( I don't know if they read here ) who are gifting me the pods for research.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Darklight

[Darklight]

Also may be worth noting- pods taken from different plants in very different climates show very different responses to aseptic germination. Not sure if it is due to the genetics, or whether it is caused by the climate in which seed is ripened, or both. This is a standard observation in aseptic culture and in your own experiment YMMV. That's why collaboration is so important

Pete it is your notes posted here publicly which have inspired me to share data so far. I've had several private enquiries on the topic over the years but as the requestors haven't had a history of sharing their results or experiences in any of their work- and many have stated they have no such intention to share, I'm not inclined to be helpful to them privately for that reason. They never re-post their questions publicly, so stuff 'em

Science is about empowering people. Historically this has been a research-oriented forum. Anyone can run an experiment as long as they're thorough, they take good notes, give some kind of reasoning for their experiment choices, and are contactable for others to ask questions of reguarding their processes. I wish it were done more often

Even no result is a result, and releasing these results can be incredibly helpful to people so that they don't repeat negative results unknowingly and so can plan for productive work ( I wish this was compulsary for academic publications too )

Edited June 10, 2012 by Darklight

[planthelper]

Please note that I am also using mature seed from ripe, freshly opened pods harvested approx 2 weeks prior, with the stem included ( so that pathogens don't enter the fruit end from the pod tissue damaged by removing the stem- not normally a consideration for horticultural applications but important for aseptic ones ).

good point, even for us dirt growers...

one of my mates spotted a mature iboga fruit on my plant, and he pulled it off and squashed it...

i was pissed off, because now the seeds are not sterile anymore, and storage time which i don't think is long with iboga seeds anyway, will drop dramasticly.

[pete34]

G'day Darklight

i am always keen to share knowledge, the smarter my neighbour is the better life is

collaboration is vital for fast progress

natural ways are the best, in nature it must be the seeds that get damaged a bit that do well, either passed through an animal or scarified mechanically, if i didnt want to scrape the seed i would swallow them and then have a big pot with dirt handy eh eh

i am finding even small seeds that are hard to germinate do germinate fast after i rub them on sandpaper, the cancer bush Sutherlandia frutescens is a good example, you get nearly 100% germination in days then, i tried boiling water and no show nill, some seeds are meant to be eaten so sandpaper works well

most wild plant seeds wont like ethanol, they havnt been tormented by man before eh eh

so far i think in your case

1.5% bleach, with 3 water rinses,scrape 30% of the seed coat off, ga3 soak, place in a tube with gel, 30c (maybe with a blast to 40c an hr or 2 a day)

in the wild it will be cooler at night not always hot or not stable 40c and in the wet ground would keep em cooler than 40c i reckon, it might cook

the seeds definitely need mechanical scarification, i would not boil any seeds unless that didnt work

Salome

Peter

[pete34]

re:

storage time which i don't think is long with iboga seeds anyway, will drop dramasticly.

if you keep em at room temp they will dry but the way i think to fix that is soak seeds for 2 days or until its easy to scarify with a knife

Salome

Peter

[Bert&Ernie]

So when are we getting pictures? I Can't wait to see them

[Darklight]

the smarter my neighbour is the better life is

I like that As long as they're not paranoid ( thankfully mine aren't )

most wild plant seeds wont like ethanol, they havnt been tormented by man before eh eh

I reckon they've gone through worse things than my intense scrutiny ;) I was actually trying to check whether I could force the wet/dry cycle with ETOH and still have viable seed but primarily the intent of setting it up that way was to check for uptake of liquid through the seedcoat in viable seed and change in seed to ETOH. I didn't use enough seed to try more than one cycle, so that's an option for another day.

That the seed shrank when exposed to 70% and 100% ETOH shows that penetration of the coat is occurring and reactions are taking place with my other experiments- they're just not moving onto the next phase of germination. If I'd seen some colour from the food colouring I'd be much happier- may need to repeat with red- but if I do that I won't be able to test viability with TTZ unless I run it without food colouring, just ETOH

The nice thing about the idea of the ETOH wet dry cycle was that it could keep seed sterile post bleach, or if it were done pre-bleach, the subsequent bleaching wouldn't interfere with the physical process of losing the seed coat via repeat dessication ( fake wet/dry cycle ). I'll work with that at a future point if my next lots don't result in real data

Seed contained in fruit which ferments gets exposed to ethanol amongst other things- many other things, including acetone in some cases

so far i think in your case

1.5% bleach, with 3 water rinses,scrape 30% of the seed coat off, ga3 soak, place in a tube with gel, 30c (maybe with a blast to 40c an hr or 2 a day)

 

Good plan- I tried something like it over several versions and I'll try the GA3 seed soak pre-sterilisation- probably not this year as I only have enough seed to cover the next few batches. Soaking things post sterilisation usually results in massive contamination down the track- theoretically though I could soak each seed in GA3 post sterilisation in an individual tube and raise them that way so I don't lose whole batches to contam before the GA3 has had time to work

I've used GA3 in the media, added filter-sterile post autoclave, can't remember the concentration- but it didn't result in higher germination than normal. Possibly I could have used more, or germinated in the dark ( does GA3 photodegrade? I think so )

This batch of experiments is 'fast and dirty' to try to identify trends to pursue, I haven't found anything too noteworthy yet, but I can also see holes in the protocol which need to be backfilled before I'd write them off as options- such as using more GA3 in the above experiment

in the wild it will be cooler at night not always hot or not stable 40c and in the wet ground would keep em cooler than 40c i reckon, it might cook

 

Your're right about the temp variance, I have a certain amount at my facility but not 10C, maybe 8C. They also survive much hotter temps- think of the temps in rotting rainforest humus in summer, for example. I've had non-sterile seed survive destruction testing at 45C for a week, with a couple of bursts at 55C, just to see if I could get the seed coat to soften. Not that way. No idea if the embryo cooked in the coat as a result, but it didn't soften the coat enough for easier removal

[pete34]

taken photos twice i just need to find the usb cable

so the main thing for iboga is to remove 30 to 40% of the seed coat with a knife

[Thelema]

I planted 64 iboga seeds recently in well draining cactus soil. Kept it moist all the time. Total germination success was 50% - 32 seedlings. After about a month they started to go yellow and the seedling leaves would just wilt and fall off. Now, 6 months later, only 1 has survived and looks like it will make it through, nice and green and fairly sturdy sapling. Another one has resprouted it's baby leaves and looks good and nice and green. So 2/64. Go figure. Germination was OK, I just wish I knew what went wrong with the other 30...

[pete34]

Yes i have read similar experiences

Thelema did the leaves curl?

I think it would be (over loved) the soil drainage more than anything, i tried a few different soil types as an experiment

things i will consider, let me know your thoughts

light dosnt need to be that strong

temp needs to be warm

humidity dome while small

water/soil ph needs to be acidic

epsom salts

nitrogen-deficiency (cactus soil)

i noticed with iboga germination as it takes months spraying the seeds daily the soil can be too waterlogged sitting in a humidity dome/germinator, so i have put bamboo sticks in the bottom of germinator and keep germinator water free

if not overwatering - you are overfeeding?

i saw this on the net was thinking its a good idea for any plant

Sprout water. I made alfalfa sprouts for eating; they need rinsing several times a day, so instead of pouring the rinse water down the drain, I saved it to water the seedlings with. In no time they had great color and vigor

[icekila]

great work, would love to see pics

[pete34]

yes pics are coming

i will try virdis seeds, i sanded them with sandpaper and sowed seeds a few days ago

[pete34]

yesterday the 1st seed to sprout popped out of its seed coat and is standing proud!!!

yes i took a pic ;-)

so it takes a while from sprouting out of the ground to popping out of seed, 8th june sprout then 22nd june pops out of seed coat, i had cut away a good % of seed so i didnt need to help it along

i put a desk lamp standing on top of one of the germinator's so it shines on the plants, i can still cover them with the hot blanket leaving the lamp standing under the hot blanket, lamp has a timer, not sure if its warm or cool white globe yet

so now its moisture i need to keep an eye on, i just feel how heavy the pot is, on the heat mat you get more evaporation

and if they go yellow i will spray leaves only with sea weed

important to spray the seed after it sprouts as it can dry out and probably harden

8th june till 22nd june was sprayed twice a day just to wet the seed coat not the soil as soil was wet enough

its nice to chq on them to watch progress so its not a bother

[mutant]

great thread

but where the fuck is the pics?

pics or it never happened