carpobrotus: mesembrine?

[occidentalis]

This stuff is everywhere, but I've never before heard of any alkaloids present, does anyone know anything?

"The Australian species of Carpobrotus have not yet been studied intensively but it is known that two related South African species contain mesmebrine, an alkaloid drug somewhat similar in actionn to cocaine"

From Plants of the Perth Coast and Islands, Rippey and Rowland, 1995.

[Ed Dunkel]

Carpobrotus rossii (pigface) is the one found around the southern coast of australia, edible fruits (salti strawberry like)and even the leaves are edible I hear. http://farrer.riv.csu.edu.au/ASGAP/c-ros.html

Carpobrotus modestus also found in the south

Carpobrotus glaucescens common near Sydney

Carpobrotus virescens common in WA and Carpobrotus edulis being a weed from south africa common in WA

The C. edulis seems to contain mesembrine, nothing much is known about the aussie pigfaces.

hope that helped (probably not much)

E D

[Torsten]

Same problem here as with cacti, that alkaloid level is more dependent on strain or individual plant rather than species. Expect about a third of the Aizoaceae to be active!!!! Sveral genera are moreso than others. So get out there and bioassay

(watch out for the oxalic acid though)

[theobromos]

There are also other toxins (like piperidine) in some species of the Aizoaceae.

[occidentalis]

I think I'll leave the assaying to someone with skills and equipment... the only method available to me is doing a munch and this stuff tastes pretty nasty.

[Guest reville]

S what would be the best way to assay?

smoked?

Tincture?

powdered and eaten?

[Ed Dunkel]

We can presume that the bush tucker (Carpobrotus rossii and modestus) ones probably contain little or no amounts of toxins and probably also hardly any mesembrine as otherwise it would have been mentioned or noted over their thousands of years of use as bushtucker.

Saying that, they might have kept that one quite or they might never have comsumed very much of the plant (both the fruit and the plant material are eaten)

[This message has been edited by Ed Dunkel (edited 03 September 2002).]

[Torsten]

due to the oxalic acdi content I would always use one of two methods for this family.

1) dry, powder, extract in acidic water, filter, basify & extract with dichlor, wash dichlor, evaporate.

freezing & blending may eliminate drying & powdering.

2) ferment sealed in bag in the sun for 2 weeks with some soil.. smoke.

[theobromos]

Add calcium carbonate. Dry. Smoke. Small quantities may be safe chewed this way as the calcium oxalate is insoluble, but not sure what happens in the stomach, possibly hydrochloric acid will release the oxalic acid.

[t st tantra]

i think several alkaloids are involved here as from my bioasseys the strongest species is not always the most pleasant!

t s t .

[Guest reville]

Interesting. I am familiar with C virescens

around perth and it is quite easy to find.

This other one from SA has me puzzled as i dont think ive seen it -

There are some very strange species that have naturalised on the sand dunes in geraldton though.

i will look for a photo.

So ive read about the empathogenic effect of sceletium with cannabis and wonder if this is an accurate description of its effects?

Does it come recommended?

[occidentalis]

C virescens= pink flowers

C edulis= yellow

Correct?

If so, there is heaps of both around here.

[t st tantra]

from what i've tried ,its a pleasant socializing mix,people get talkative,i had some every day for about 2 weeks,having more mainly made it last longer,lack of intensity is part of the reason i dont have it more often.

for the record i'm uncertain if one of the plants ive tried is really sceletium,but from the net i gather substitution may be rife,as other plants are just as potent.also i think i've tried enough aizoaceae plants to get the drift,including ones listed as potent.

i also notice that the list of alternative plants seems to have been removed from the net.

t s t .

[Guest reville]

So tantra. Do you have a duplicate list?

[t st tantra]

no,and i've never seen the original either.

has anyone else got it?

t s t .

[Fractalhead]

Ed, what makes you think Carpobrotus edulis is likely to contain mesembrine? I've got a wheelbarrow full of the stuff to extract but I can't find any specific reference to it containing mesembrine. Will extract anyway

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Fractalhead:

Ed, what makes you think Carpobrotus edulis is likely to contain mesembrine?

It is in the group of mesembs that has more than 60% active species.

[Ed Dunkel]

Damn, that has been a while. I can't find it any more.

But here is a link that generally mentions it:

http://www.rumbalara-e.schools.nsw.edu.au/...laucescens1.htm

Also a PDF in German [Eiskraut, Mittagsblume, Hottentottenfeigen. Mesembrin, Oxalsäure euphorisierend, sedierend] [Kristall-Mittagsblume,](Torsten???) http://lhoepner.bei.t-online.de/terminolog...%20pflanzen.pdf

[ 01. May 2003, 13:06: Message edited by: Ed Dunkel ]

[Torsten]

hmmmm, the carpobrotus is in a different section of the text and doesn't actually state mesembrenine for that species there. A little further up it has M.crystallinum given as the active species according to common names listed. Due to the use of common names here I don't think it can be regarded as a reliable reference.

[Ed Dunkel]

I didn't think so either but my german is "schisse housen".

If I find the link (or text) I'll post it again.

Fractalhead, how are you going to go about extracting it?

:cool:

[Tryptameanie]

tst- what are the subjective effects like from the mesembs? Do you know the pharmacological action of mesembrine(ie binding profiles)?

[Ed Dunkel]

There is also a mention of Carpobrotus edulis and mesembrine in Trouts - Sacred Cacti book but he marked it as unconfirmed or something.

I'll check it again.

[Fractalhead]

Re extraction method: not sure yet. Will check the literature before trying anything. Will post results when available.