Katrina & God

[Torsten]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the disaster in the US....

well, I think the whole scene is heartbreaking. never mind my rants that america deserves to be at the receiving end of global warming for once, when it comes down to the individuals you just can't help feeling gutted about their misery. Mind you, I don't feel sorry for the idiots who 'trust in god' and stayed in their homes (by choice) even after the evacuation order. In fact, their stupidity is endangering the lives of rescuers and is draining precious resources needed for those who had no choice. Screw them - they should be last in line for rescue. Resources should be concentrated on those who tried to do the right thing by the community and still somehow got caught out.

Now, I am sure not all of those who got caught in the floods were god fearing, but somehow they are the only ones that ever make it onto television. My stomach churns when they say "I made it because I had god on my side". So where does that leave their poor neighbour who drowned? Wasn't he worthy? What about the many who would have trusted in god and then got screwed over? How do religious people justify all that? And if god really was to blame for all this, then why don't these people ever think about why god hates them so much?

God features in almost every american disater rather prominently. People always thank god for surviving, but never blame him for wiping out those that didn't make it. So if bin Laden is a force of evil, then who sent Katrina?

The older I get the more ridiculous I find the concept of god, especially as interpreted by monotheistic religions. And there is no time when that topic is more prevalent than after a natural disaster.

And no, this isn't just semantics or intolerance towards religion. My gripe is about deferring responsibility. If you do not accept that disasters are often man made (ie preventable), that presidential elections are man-made, that terrorists are man-made, then how can you ever take responsibility? And without taking responsibility no advances can be made as social beings and as a race.

btw, I felt like giving a similar rant just after the tsunami, so this is not just an american phenomenon.

It also makes me question why we should try to prevent disaster or why we should help afterwards. I mean, there is no question in my mind thatw e should, but if you looked at it from a religious perspective then prevention and rebuilding are just processes that interfere with god's will. Surely if God wanted New orleans and the Indian Ocean coastline laid to waste then we should obey?!?

Cringe.....

[ 31. August 2005, 21:18: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Evil Genius]

Hi Torsten,

as i am a very un-religious person i tend to see such natural disasters as man-made. I feel very sorry for all the affected people. It´s sad to see that things like that are just happening because of the influence of people on the global ecosystem.I personally doubt that "God" has something to do with it. I never considered about the religious aspects of such terrible catastrophes. It´s a interesting point of view! If God is with us, who can be against us?

[simon_marklar]

well, god didnt make the storm. god didnt save the people from the storm. god didnt kill people. god doesnt work like that. it cant.

there is no god watching us, no god looking out for us. there is just ourselves and our friends, which funnily enough, is where i think people will find god. in themselves. and others. and in everything around them. but it is not something that controls this reality. i have no idea what it is but it its fucking obvious that he has no immediate hand in the goings on on earth. that is our job.

people forget that from destruction comes creation.the whole history of the universe began with a massive explosion, and from that came everything. destruction killed the dinosuars and that eventually gave rise to us. it is the way of the universe. we can get around it, but only if we pull our heads out of our asses.

yes we should help them, just as they should help us if we were flooded. altho, i'd be happy to leave the "god will save me" alone. if god can save them then good, we'll go save other people who need help.

i think the concept of god provided my the major religions does exactly what you speak of torsten - makes people give up thier responsibility to another being. it takes power away from the individual and makes him/her powerless in thier eyes (eg "god hates me, thats why my life sucks, what can i do?"), then they need someone who can help them (i.e. the church). its just a power game.

you know the saying 'god helps those that help themselves'? ramble ramble

[devance]

And so the atheist reality rains down destruction on the God believing in the form of katerina because they got down on their knees and decided to ward off destruction through their sheeplike/fanatic warmongering chants probably making stange hand signs.

How could should deluded people survive when the clear view of atheisim is so compelling as to produce at least equal fanatics that can point out natural calamitys as vindication and twist them too their own narrow viwpoint and at the same time absolve themselves by tossing out a breadcrumb of mealymouthed hypocritical sorrow on christian misfortune because the christian is so deranged as to believe in something other than the atheist belief.

From the news reports I saw it was the more helpless, like the women with her blind father that had to stay. The idea tha christians were is some sort of hallucenogenic fantasy.

There is a football stadium that was filled with refugees and had some of it roof blown off.

Makes one wonder if the last place of refuge is going to be that for disaster nonpreparedness.

But for the atheist it might be a opportunity to stay and loot the place.

But big time looting like jewlery stores and ATMs getting into the spirit of an opportunity of survival of the most ruthless fitness and showing the christian fanatics a thing or too.

All of the above is exaggeration, none will be struck died by lightning.

Although I once was struck by lightning, little damage, except it did set me on fire a little. Sleeve cuffs and cured my hangover, not all bad.

[apothecary]

Martial Law has been declared in Louisiana due to widespread looting.

Interesting how everything breaks down to total chaos so quickly.

[devance]

Frighteningly so.

[Torsten]

I wonder how god fearing those looters are?

Sure, people will be looting food and water out of desperation, but apparently televisions, jewellery and any other expensive items are essential for survival these days too

We shake our heads at the chaos and primitive nature of society in less developed countries, but here we can see that given half a chance americans are no better.

I wonder if that's what it would be like in australia? Opportunists and thieves everywhere. I'd like to think that we have more of a social conscience. Anyone know of any large scale disasters that resulted in looting here?

[devance]

I WAS tHINKING OF SCUBA GEAR and night vision scopes.

Might makes a movie script out of it but nobody likes looters.

[occidentalis]

Torsten:

I wonder if that's what it would be like in australia? Opportunists and thieves everywhere.

That's what it is like in Australia

But seriously, I don't think the average aussie is a much 'better' person than the average USian. As we follow them down their path politically we do so also culturally and even morally, if you can tolerate that word.

I don't know of any specific cases in Aus where looting has ocurred after a disaster, but I think it is fairly 'fundamental human behaviour' (if you accept that concept at all) to attempt to gain free resources when available, even if it means a small risk.

[trixxy3]

Torsten:

My stomach churns when they say "I made it because I had god on my side".

Maybe they are extremists, capable of potential terrorist activities. The governments should take heed and watch them closely.

But I've always thought that religion and god was more about hope and strength for something better than what exists now, rather than it being an actual being. In this case, sort of like saying "it was gods will" rather than "shit happens".

In my opinion, the looting says a lot about the underlying fabric of a society though, basically that of a mentality to capitalise for oneself under any circumstance

[Nasojiti]

I'd say it (the looting) comes down to the fact that most people obey the law not because they're good people but because they're afraid of what society would do to them if they broke it.

And Katrina was obviously sent by God to wipe out the unfaithful.

[woof woof woof]

I have been following this desaster very very closely. I knew the moment they predicted it was strengthening & heading for New Orlean that it would be the worse hurricane ( except maybe the galveston hurricane) to hit the US.

Anway - My take on God is - for me God = nature = everything. There is a good reason that some made it and others did not. Everything is action reaction, so there is logic behid it even if we do not see it right away.

choices we make today will affect what happens to us in the future. So be Irie. Enjoy life's journey.

[woof woof woof]

BTW - looting jewelry is not such a bad idea, especially if you have nothing else to lose.

Light weight, worth allot,... I mean everything you own is probably gone and if you need to start over & maybe settle somewhere else, with all the pawn shops in the US, it will be easy to sell to make at least a small start.

TV's & DVD players - lol - yeah that's kind of crazy.

Saw this sherrif guy with a shotgun, pointing it at a guy with what looked like stolen clothing, telling him to put it down and leave it. i know stealing is bad - but pointing a shotgun at someone stealing a small bunch of stuff in the FUCKED UP situation that they are in.

To me this sherrif guy doesnt seem to understand the situation very well.

I would be worrying about keeping the peace and trying to save lives,... not threathening the lives you are supposed to save, creating more unnecesary tension.

[cypherdias]

yea well, in the area i lived in, in the states it was hard to NOT get a cops gun pointed at you.

I cant only imagine the crazy amount of chaos/anarchy going on right now..

I think i saw on the news a clip of a black man who was talking about how NO was allready poverty stricken and now it will only get worse.

And did anyone notice that all of the people looting where generally black, aka, they NEED that crap if there going to get ANYWHERE after this.

Kinda reminds me of april 1992.

[reptyle]

the looters where generally black people, not because they need the crap more but because the film crews and TV stations dont wanna think that white people would do that, its pretty bullshit really.

[Legba]

i saw a black lady "looting" some nappies on one of th broadcasts.

if i just lost everything and i have 4 kids? id loot jewellery for my family. and anything else. id get some veapons (de phaz plasma lieful in de ferdy vatt range). eradicate interferin cuntstbles, whateva.

shouldnt military law indicating a military effort to save everyone? recall your troops for a few weeks. that'll do it.

god cares 4 th universe, as a whole. th universe cares 4 th galaxies. th galx. care 4 th systems. th solar system cares 4 its sun(s). th suns care 4 its planets. the planets cares 4 its inhabitants.

an inhabitant of a planet cant pray to god; pray 2 th planet. how? getting to know it would probably help. ud hav to get to know urself on th way, thou, to talk to the planet and, more important, perhaps, hear th planets reply.

[simon_marklar]

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/photos_...shxwaoma_photo1

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/ladm10208301530

apparently only black people loot. white people find.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Torsten:

Brian - just because you have lost everything, how does that make it OK to steal from another individual?

Sure, I don't have much pity on Walmart and other multinationals or at least big chains, but many of these shops were people's individual livelihoods. Often these were the people who heeded the warnings and left town. Now they are being punished by those who were too stupid to get out. Large chains/stores are also more likely to be fully insured and hence its not really going to hurt them, but again, the small stores often can't afford this sort of protection. So they might have survived the disaster, but their lives are ruined by the actions of others.

What about the individuals and gangs who raom the neighbourhood and steal stuff from people right in front of their noses at the threat of violence? Imagine you survived this and you are living in your attic and a group burst into your house and takes all your food, your radio, or your generator at knife point? How is that justifiable?

Anyone who increases the misery of others in such a situation should not get our pity or understanding. I hope that wisdom will prevail in the way they are going to prosecute these people (eg, lettign food thieves go), but I am glad that they are going to target the looters as from today.

I can understand foodstores and other emergency supplies being looted. In fact, seeing the government's total lack of immediate response they should have authorised the immediate distribution of food & essentials from all stores (at their expense).

I find it unfathomable that after 3 days they still have no disaster relief. For a country that is the richest in the world and spends billions on its army I am totally puzzled how they could not get a few thousand personell food, shelter and transport facilities to the area within 24 hours (it's not liek they didn't have any warning).

100 extra police and 100 extra army rescue boats within 24 hours would have probably prevented the looting and many deaths. It would have prevented the selfish behaviours that led to helicopters being shot at, not being able to pick up hospital patients for air-transfer, and the general morale that no one is coming to help.

I mean, how would you feel living in such a country and 3 days later you are sitting in the sweltering heat on the side of a highway and there are NO relief supplies AT ALL.

As far as 'could it happen in australia?', I really don't think so at this stage. Disasters bring out the best in people in most western societies, but there is a fundamental difference between say western europe or california, and Luisiana, and that is the class divide. I think the difference in response is due to an 'us and them' mentality that grows out of an ever increasing section of society that is dispossesed and suffering in poverty.

In australia nearly 80% of families own their own home, so most kids are raised with respect for property & ownership, which they also then apply when they own their own home. Most property crime is committed by those who do not own property, which is usually the young and/or disadvantaged.

In the US only 67% own their own home. More significantly though only 45% of blacks own property and less than 35% of Native Americans. Loisiana has a huge black population and the ownership issue would probably be negatively skewed for the cities. So I would not be surprised if black property ownership rates in New Orleans are less than half of the national average of 45%, ie somewhere around the 20%. This leaves a huge class of people who often have no respect for property and ownership of anything.

So my argument about australia being different wasn't just based on different character, but also on pure social factors. However, I do believe that the american "each for his own" mindset is very different to the australian concept of mateship and mutual support.

Just think about it for a moment. Where do you think more looting and selfish behaviour would follow a disaster: Canberra (with the highest property ownership and low unemployment), or inner Western Sydney (with low ownership and high unemployment)?

I agree that we are definitely moving in the same direction as the US, but hopefully we can recognise that soon enough to alter course. [/qb]

[ 02. September 2005, 15:30: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Torsten]

I've never understood people who live in floodplains. Like in Lismore, it flood every 10 years or so and everyone knows this and yet houses in the floodplain are about the same price as houses that are floodfree. Go figure.

But what I understand even less is how development planners can allow the building of a city below sealevel (and lake and river level). I mean, how irresponsible is that? In australia councils that allow development in flood prone areas (especially where the water would move fast) get their sorry asses sued. I doubt that many of the residents of New Orleans had an education level high enough to really comprehend the scale of the potential disaster if the levees broke. More than 30% of people in New Orleans live below the poverty line. Education standards are dismal.

[nabraxas]

Saw this sherrif guy with a shotgun, pointing it at a guy with what looked like stolen clothing, telling him to put it down and leave it. i know stealing is bad - but pointing a shotgun at someone stealing a small bunch of stuff in the FUCKED UP situation that they are in. i agree.

i saw that clip too, & when the guys threw down the clothes they looked so pissed off--it was like -

"you're goona shoot us over some clothes that you just made us threw in the dirty water anyway???"

[devance]

yeah your right alot of selected propaganda on the news.

The fed employees are inhibited by the politicals and when inhibited enough they stop making critical decisions and start worrying about their jobs.

So crisis mangement funds can get taken away and there won't be a infrastructure that can respond.

Not a mystery except as why there wasn't such.

My prediction is there will be many catastrophic events in the future.

Aas far as australia concerned having the citys around the the coast line is a plus.

As evacuation from a environmental cataclism leaves a lot of room inside which by the nature of environmental caltacalism can be changed for the better as far as living conditions.

Canada or Alaska is shaping up for simililar changes for the better.

Canadian dollars are a good investment as theres alot of oil in canada if your into the investment world.

[apothecary]

A detachment of 300 National Guard troops have landed in anarchic New Orleans with the authorisation to shoot and kill "hoodlums", Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco says.

Thousands of troops have struggled to counter armed looters and help tens of thousands of refugees flee New Orleans, where chaos reigns three days after Hurricane Katrina.

Top officials have confirmed that the storm killed thousands of people and have made a desperate plea for help to restore order to New Orleans and the surrounding region.

"Three hundred of the Arkansas National Guard have landed in the city of New Orleans," Ms Blanco said.

"These troops are fresh back from Iraq, well trained, experienced, battle-tested and under my orders to restore order in the streets.

"They have M-16s and they are locked and loaded.

"These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will."

Colonel Henry Whitehorn of the Louisiana State Police said the law and order situation in the city was "bad".

But he said anarchic conditions around the Superdome stadium and central business district where up to 20,000 refugees had been sheltering were "stabilising".

He admitted that a number of police officers who had lost everything in flooding after Hurricane Katrina had handed in their badges, unwilling to take the fight to looters.

'War zone'

Four days after the hurricane hit, New Orleans was still plagued by gun battles and rapes, with gangs of looters and carjackers roving the streets as bodies were left lying by the roadside.

Many people have spent four days without proper food, water and sanitation and endured nights of lawless blackout.

Residents reported survivors dropping dead in shelters. Hospitals were evacuated after power ran out.

"This is a war zone," said Melissa Murray, 32, a Louisiana state corrections officer helping in the relief effort.

A National Guardsman was shot outside the Superdome and a shot was also fired at a Chinook helicopter taking part in the operation to move refugees out of the stadium, officials said.

Two children were reportedly raped at the stadium.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin issued an urgent plea for help for up to 20,000 refugees stuck in the convention centre, which he said was "unsanitary and unsafe" and running out of supplies.

"This is a desperate SOS," Mr Nagin said in a statement released through CNN television.

Ms Blanco said up to 300,000 survivors might still be stuck in disaster areas in the state and at least 40,000 uniformed troops were needed for New Orleans alone.

Although no precise death toll was available, Ms Blanco and Louisiana Senator Mary Landrieu said several thousand people were believed to have been killed by Katrina.

'National disgrace'

As US Congress was in the process of passing a $14 billion plan for emergency disaster relief, the head of New Orleans's emergency operations, Terry Ebbert, called the response effort "a national disgrace".

Mr Ebert said the Federal Emergency Management Agency had been in the city for three days "yet there is no command and control".

"We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans," he said.

Thomas Jessie, a 31-year-old roofer, vented his fear and anger after spending a night in the squalor of the convention centre with no National Guard nor Red Cross workers in sight.

"We got dead bodies sitting next to us for days. I feel like I am going to die. People are going to kill you for water," Mr Jessie said.

"This is America, I don't understand the lack of communications between the authorities and the people," he said. "It is disgusting, we feel we have been forgotten."

Officials said the floodwaters were to blame for slow progress.

"Let me emphasise, from the very beginning, and as we speak, rescue operations have continued and are continuing in full force," said Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff.

President George W Bush vowed "zero tolerance" for armed gangs and profiteers.

Mr Bush, criticised for his tardy response to the disaster, cranked up the Government's relief machinery and was to tour hurricane-damaged areas of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama on Friday.

He also tapped his father, former president George Bush Snr, and former president Bill Clinton to lead fundraising efforts for the victims of the hurricane.

The President also appealed for Americans to conserve car fuel for the next few weeks. But US petrol stations saw panic buying and lengthening queues.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20050...09/s1451906.htm

[Legba]

i always felt th u.s. was at war with itself but im shocked at how open they are about it.

it worries me more that, in such a time of crisis, some groups of people (some cops, some gangs) are not helping other people to survive but rather, are contributing to their problems.

i really hope this is not an indication of my naivity.

[-bijanto-]

 

quote:

---

Mind you, I don't feel sorry for the idiots who 'trust in god' and stayed in their homes (by choice) even after the evacuation order.

---

I don't think God would like them either

Anyway.

I believe that 'this' life is like a dream. It's a very short period of time as compared to the 'actual' life (I mean the life after death). Just like when you dip your finger in the ocean. The water that drips from your finger is nothing comparable to the rest of the water in the ocean. At least that's what my mind can imagine.

But even if it's short, this life is very important and I must be very careful because it is like having 2 roads to the other life: the first takes you to the right direction and the other will lead to the wrong direction. It's really a matter of choice, and my only duty is to choose the road and pick a suitable car to take me to my destination.

And if you had a bad dream (as if you have done a lot of good things in your life), you would wake up smiling.

So there must something very important that they call: heaven and hell. So there are only these 2 choices. If you do a lot of good things in your life, you will go to heaven, otherwise you will go to hell.

But it's not our duty to know what God wants and why, because we wouldn't understand anyway. There are a lot of things in my life that I have never understood why, but I believe my brain would not be capable of understanding that now. It's not my duty to judge. I would understand it later after I wake up from my dream, ie. after the day when my spirit gets out of my body when I die. But as long as I live, I will try as much as I can to keep myself alive.

I believe that as a human, my duty is to fight for my life as hard as I can, even if I know that how long I will live is a God will. I could kill myself if I want but it would mean I don't respect my life and it would be bad.

[ 07. September 2005, 04:12: Message edited by: -bijanto- ]

[devance]

if I was the guy with with the gun I wont't do so

Such is the strange people who I never going to know

If that was the case.