planthelper Posted February 25, 2012 i stopped smoking tobaco yonks ago, but i think it helps against depression, because it got a mild maoi type action. my doc would give me moclobomide, so i wonder, if a doc could give a prescription for caapi!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shruman Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) "HARMALA ALKALOIDS except in herbs, or preparations, for therapeutic use: (a) containing 0.1 per cent or less of harmala alkaloids; or ( in divided preparations containing 2 mg or less of harmala alkaloids per recommended daily dose." From the SUSDP. Scheduled as S9 so apparently has no medical benefit & is a drug of harm so no doctor can prescribe caapi would be similiar to a doctor prescribing heroin but if it meets the above criteria for herb or preperation for therapeutic use you would not need a script at all but it would be so weak as to be virtualy inactive. Edited February 25, 2012 by shruman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ballzac Posted February 25, 2012 Considering people tend to use about 4g rue for MAO inhibition, and rue is meant to be about 5% alkaloids, then a dose would only need to be about 200mL of tea to be legal. That's not so bad. But does that mean that it's legal to manufacture it? Strangely, if you drop some seeds into water and let it soak, the region around the seeds will be strong and therefore satisfy the criterea for S9 and be very illegal, yet the water above would be weaker and be perfectly legal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shruman Posted February 25, 2012 Good bloody question Zac? I had thought hard about this before but the simplest method escaped me. On paper it sounds good to me falls in the 0.1% Therapeutic use though how do they define that? TGA involved? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ballzac Posted February 25, 2012 It is kind of vague, but I guess if it was used for healthcare rather than recreation then it is therapeutic, but whether it actually needs a stamp on it from the TGA is another question. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted February 25, 2012 so the manufacturing would be a felony. but the low % tincture, would be not. maybe one could legaly 1st, remove the alkaloids to a legal level, and than manufature a tincture. unless handling the material, is already a felony. i love discussions like this.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shruman Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Yeah my thoughts precisely Zac, it would be a therepeutic good then & would need the stamp of aproval from the TGA I'd think, probly = lots of money to meet TGA standards but the rewards could be worth it for a big company. Fuck the TGA screwing over Pan pharma, Bastids. Sorta like Thompsons Kava capsules... would need to be registered with the TGA. Edited February 25, 2012 by shruman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted February 27, 2012 "HARMALA ALKALOIDS except in herbs, or preparations, for therapeutic use: (a) containing 0.1 per cent or less of harmala alkaloids; or ( in divided preparations containing 2 mg or less of harmala alkaloids per recommended daily dose." From the SUSDP. Scheduled as S9 so apparently has no medical benefit & is a drug of harm so no doctor can prescribe caapi would be similiar to a doctor prescribing heroin. boring statment, are you on the side of the lawmakers? i think it was you who made the same statment, when i said years ago, a few puffs of a caapi cigarett, are enough to, stopp depression for quite a while. worse, you even said, on other issus and plants, i'm often strict, which is not true. i'm very liberal towards disscussing any plant. your perception of things, is biased, i hope you don't have a partner, because i'm sure that person would suffer a lot being with you. doctors prescribe things far stronger and more addictive than heroin, so you statment has no merit for me. if you like to just, tell me the law, about harma alks again and again, than you just bore me, and i assume that you are, not in our camp, but in the law makers one. at this forum our policy is to go, "as far as we can" without breaking the law. your statements make this forum, very boring. or better, i assume you never experienced aya or caapi, and for this reason, you just always say, ohhhh, it's S9. i wonder what happens, if one person uses heroin in front of a copper, and another one puffs from a caapi cigarette, which helps him to battle his/her depression. there are many health proffessionals, who know about the health benefits of caapi and rue! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted February 27, 2012 oh, i love those puppets! let us define, "troll". a troll is a person, who likes to cause disturbance, and mostly picks on the people with a mod position, because all the want is, to procure a "big scalp". i have been benefical to this forum, more than you will ever be of help here. i don't know what your problem is, and i don't care, but everytime, i don't agree with you, you go bonkers. your methode of drying phyllodes, was crap, your above statments are crap, it will not help you to call me a troll, that doesn't make your, input to this forum any better. those are my last words about you, because you obviously like, the disturbance you cause, but i don't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silvesterdrinkthebeers Posted March 12, 2012 I don't think you can beat regular exercise. Just type 'regular exercise antidepressant' or some such thing into google scholar to see all the studies on it. The best thing about exercise is you can keep doing it for the rest of your life with no negative side effects. Sleep deprivation also has an antidepressant effect which can be quite nice, but I don't think it's very good for you in the long run. Again, google scholar it if you want to see the studies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mickodog Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) I take 5htp every day, I think it works ok. Also passionflower is good too I find if used regularly. Edited July 4, 2012 by Mickodog Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tedzr Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) I hate to say it, because I know it's not the advice you are after, and it's not the cheapest thing in the world to do... But.. If you're unhappy and suffering from depression, your safest bet is to get a reference so you can go and speak to a good psychologist. If you see your GP they can put you on a mental health plan and you get subsidies if you are on Medicare. Your GP can also prescribe real anti-depressants that are really cheap if you have a health care card. And probably cheap too if you get 100mg and cut them into quarters or whatever you need. 25mg of Zoloft does absolute wonders for me when I'm feeling a bit low for an extended period. Quick onset, mood elevation within the first day, more focus, it just makes you feel better. After a little while with your body producing ample amounts of dopamine and seratonin you can just stop taking the shit and keep it around for when you think you might need it again. Minor withdrawals for me with zoloft, esp. if I use it like it's meant to be used (for weeks or months). The chemical systems in your body that mediate happiness can be pretty volatile, depression is also a real problem. Self medications can be risky or inefficient. Recreational drugs are also bad for your mood when you use them too much. You can't dismiss changes to lifestyle to help get you out of a rut, sometimes something as simple as cleaning up your place can make you feel much better. Just my 2 cents. Good luck man. Edited March 13, 2012 by tedzr Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted March 13, 2012 the problem is that, a few people react quite badly to all prescription anti depressants, anyway some of those people claim that herbal based anti deprassants caused less unwanted side effects, if this is realy so, i can't say. most people i know, who use ssri's are when they use it, much slower in thinking and action, and hardly laugh, or have a sence of humor. sometimes, because they are on ssri's they even, don't get upset, if everybody else would get upset. no, i'm not talking about me, believe me. exercise and spending quality time with your friends is the best remedy! my thinking of how to treat depression is totaly the opposite of main stream thinking. i would treat depression only very short term, and only when it's realy realy bad. herbs which will do that are maoi's, ssri's and uppers. but don't bloody mix any of the above, they are all CONTRAINDICATED!!! sometimes, just one day without depression can stopp the depression from going on. longterm usage as the doc's recommand is crap, because of the side effects and the addictive potential of those drugs (i go crazy without my bla, bla, we hear far too often). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tedzr Posted March 14, 2012 True about the friends and the exercise planthelper. Often a rut can stem from lifestyle and making positive changes can really help. However, when people do have serious problems regarding mental health, I think it is wise for them to at least try to find an expert who knows what they are talking about. These experts exist and often dedicate years of their lives to healing others. While it is true that bad advice is often given by medical practitioners, I would say that self-diagnosis and medication frequently leads to bad or ineffective decisions. My thought is that perspective is mostly a good thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted March 14, 2012 the problem is that the australian mental health departments are under funded. all mental health does, is to care for people with psychosis, and once they have over come it they get chucked out again. psychologist are very, very good, but they don't diagnose. psychyatrists will not see you, unless you have a psychotic episode! this leaves normal gp's to do there work, which is outrages!!! gp's don't have had much training in the field of psychatry and for that reason we ought to avoid them diagnosing mental conditions. the pharma companies just print a 10 questions questionare, and suddenly gp's, diagnose bi polar... sure bi polar is an easy diagnose in most cases, but i spoke with some gp's about this and they agreed. only psychiatriests should diagnose. self diagnose is definately a poor option, but it will happen more often because of the poor state of the mental health system in australia. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zen Peddler Posted March 25, 2012 passionflower can do that too much paradoxical reaction for me. How about a new angle - depression as an inflammatory illness - there is mounting evidence of the involvement of pro inflammatory cytokines in the CNS. In that case Cat's claw might be of help. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EripioMundus Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) I apologise in advance for the length of this post. The best way to recover from depression is to understand what it is: depression is not, as your doctor would have you beleive, a condition in its own right. It is the symptom of something in your life that needs changing. That may take the form of bad nutrition choices, a lack of social outlet, unhappy school/work conditions etc. Depression almost always occurs in response to an ignored and overdue change that you need/desire. When something needs changing, and isn't changed, it stresses the body/mind in some form or another. If your nutrition is bad, for instance, your body will be stressed because it lacks the necessary nutrients to properly function; if you lack social outlet, or the social outlet you have is negative, your expression will be impeded and you may become lonely - a stress response. Stress is a tension that signals us that we need to do something differently or better. It also invokes the 'flight or fight' response of the HPA (Hypothalamus Pituitary Adrenal). This system evolved in our primitive ancestors and was fine for fleeing/fighting prehistoric monsters, but today our stressors aren't amenable to fights or flights. Our stresses are niggling and long term, and the stress-response of our ancestors doesn't work so well in those conditions. The main problem is cortisol. It is released during times of stress to dull pain, presumably so that when you were gored by an angry beast you could still fight or run away. A single dose of cortisol will do you no harm, but day after day it has enormously detrimental effects. Cortisol literally attacks your brain, beginning with the very region ordinarily responsible for 'turning off' the cortisol system - the hippocampus. The damage in a chronically depressed patient can be as much as a 25% reduction in the physical size of the hippocampus. God knows how much of a physiological reduction that equates to, but I'd guess it's somewhere around 50-60%. The hippocampus is responsible for spatial memory, working memory, temporal memory, laying down and retrieving memories etc. It is one of only two or three parts of the brain that produces new cells throughout the lifespan. This process is called neurogenesis. Studies have shown that when neurogenesis is impaired in the hippocampus, the result is depression. So, if a mere halt in the production of new hippocampal neurons causes depression, the cortisol response to long-term stressors that destroy the hippocampus are certain to cause depression. Studies have further shown that the sole reason antidepressants work is because they indirectly increase hippocampal neurogenesis. They did this by co-administering antidepressants with a drug that blocked neurogenesis. As a result the antidepressants categorically failed to alleviate depression. So, the way to recover from depression is to increase hippocampal neurogenesis. How to do this? If you're like me and don't like the idea of antidepressants: >Sunlight increases a chemical known as Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor (BDNF), which increases neurogenesis - it will help in a small way. >Very strenuous, endorphine releasing, exercise increases BDNF - this also will help. >A chemical found in Turmeric known as Circumin has been shown to increase DBNF as well - this will help in a small way. >Socialising has been shown to aid in hippocampal neurogenesis - just be around people whether you feel like it or not. >Vitamin E has been shown to help protect against hippocampal degeneration in the first place. >Increases in serotonin have been shown to help invoke neurogenesis, which is why a lot of antidepressants are efficacious. You can get increases through selective food intake, or supplementation. Tryptophan is a neurochemical precursor to serotonin, but it won't cross the blood-brain barrier, meaning that after disassembly the parts may be used for something other than building serotonin. Better to use 5-HTP, which is a step further along the line in the precuror chain and, as far as I recall, dose pass the BB barrier. >A mushroom called Lion's mane supposedly helps increase neurogenesis. I haven't tried, and can't vouch for, this one. >Mental exercises that tax the working memory will absolutely help, this I guarantee. I know it seems like a strangely remote way to do it, but it works wonders. I used something called Dual'N'Back, a game produced by neuroscientists that you can access online in several different places. It's challenging, so much so that my brain just wanted to curl up and die the first time I tried it, but after a week I saw a pretty profound lift in my focus/mood/memory and overall appreciation of life. The body changes in response to whatever is stressing it - so when you tax your working memory, the part of the brain responsible for that faculty (the hippocampus) will respond by growing stronger so as to better handle the environment it finds itself in. This one works, guaranteed. >Ayahuasca has actually been shown to help - presumably because of the MOA inhibitory effects of the harmala alkaloids. As an aside, before I get to my number one tip on releiving depression from the ground up, someone who isn't me (do we do that on this forum?) has tried ayahuasca before, for the sole purpose of alleviating depression. On previous occassions it had come to this person's attention that, under the influence of ayahuasca, they (subjectively) had a physical sensation of sickness occur every time a negative thought crossed their mind. The effect of this was akin to someone whipping you every time you have a negative thought about yourself - and you quickly learn to think nothing but positive thoughts. There was an 'afterglow' effect that gradually tapered off over the course of a few months while the brain started to realise once more it wouldn't be whipped for negativistic thought patterns. Could this be the mechanism by which ayahuasca so profoundly breaks depression I wonder? Ok, my number one tip for alleviating depression is this: figure out why you are depressed. This is never easy, and never clear-cut... and often very painful. We are hard-wired to avoid pain, so we often seek distraction from that which is actually causing the depression, and may in fact find it almost impossible to 'touch' upon it, but taking that big dose of pain in one go is preferable to suffering under its burden for an eternity. Feel free to PM me if you want any specific pointers. Again, sorry for the long read guys. Edit: forgot a couple of things. Edited April 12, 2012 by EripioMundus 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
qualia Posted April 4, 2012 exercise and spending quality time with your friends is the best remedy! why do that when you can just pop a pill and make everything better? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jjsanaam Posted April 4, 2012 Cathartic Breathwork!!! Used to be called Rebirthing, or Rebirthing style breathwork...now we call it Breathwork. Our version is Cathartic Breathwork as it focuses not on birth trauma but on all trauma...we all have it, this is the ultimate way to deal with it! It actually works and you get to bypass wasting time and money by having dozens of sessions with the old world psychologists/ counsellors to get anywhere.This is the therapy of the future...no exegerration... Holotropic Breathwork is another version...same thing, this particular version was discovered by a doctor of psychiatry whilst experimenting with LSD on his patients to deal with 'mental illness'. It's an emotional enema basically...have a few of these with someone who knows what they are doing and you will feel heaps better.Simple. Or go to a 7 day program held in Sydney...contact me about details if interested. Jjsanaam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
salat Posted April 9, 2012 Mucuna is good for boosting dopamine and motivational in nature. Epimedium (it's antidepressant effects don't have anything to do with its aphrodesiac - I've noticed aphrodesiacs can help your dopamine levels) Psoralea alcoholic extracted is a dopamine and norephinephrine reuptake inhibitor - can have photosensitivity - apparently boost your melotonin levels which can be antidepressant as well. The common knowledge out there about depression is about 20 years wrong as far as research goes. Serotonin can have negative effects if your depression is HPA related. Salat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halif Posted April 13, 2012 Wow - heaps of interesting information in here! I just wanted to quickly add another nod towards St John's Wort. The OP asks for something which gives a bit of a push out of a rut without disrupting one's natural state too much, and I'd say Saint John's Wort has done that for me in the past. Years ago when I was in a generally good mental and physical state (and was not taking any medication) but felt inertia settling in, I tried taking it and certainly noticed an increase in motivation and sociability. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fenris Posted April 13, 2012 <p>It would seem that lemon essential oil works to alleviate depression when taken internally.</p> <p>I'm still waiting for my essential oils to arrive so I cant comment from first hand experience.</p> <p>http://herbs.maxforum.org/2011/03/12/lemon-essential-oil-an-effective-anti-depressent/</p> <h3 class="row2"> </h3> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
