Coleus blumei

[PowerfulMedicine]

i never have worked with this material, but maybe it's worth to try a different technic, extracting the leaves...

maybe, it's better not to use a blender. because although it might increase the uptake of possible activas, it certainly, does increase the ammount of unwanted material you have to indigest.

just take the fresh leaves and macerate them in a bit of (nice warm) rain water (maybe acidic or alakaline water would be better). macerating technic's could include, using the hands, or a wooden pestil, and straining/squeezing the material thru a cheescloth. the less water used the better.

than seperate the leaves from the liquid, and filter the water. other reports seem to suggest, keeping the coleus brew in the mouth for a while before swallowing.

 

Considering the large amount of leaves, the method that I use doesn't take much water. For instance, morning glory cold water extraction teks on the web usually specify using 20oz of water for 500 seeds or about 20 grams of seeds. The amount of water that I use for the coleus tea is about 40 or 50 ounces for 150-200 large leaves.

I am wary of changing my method for coleus tea because this method has always worked for me, but if some one else wants to test another method to make it then be my guest. I do not have much coleus and one dose takes a large amount of leaves so I do not wish to waste any of it.

This sounds a lot like the effects of meditation and concentration, like introspection. Such effects seem to be able to be produced simply from heightening ones awareness of the body through attention.

 

I agree that these effects can be achieved through meditation or intense concentration but I assure you all that I did not experience any placebo effects or convince myself that the effects of introspection were really from the coleus. I am well aware that it is easy to imagine weak effects to be caused by some substance but I am not a person who is prone to such placebo effects. I always make sure to try and totally ignore any effects that I get from a substance just to make sure that it is not placebo. If it were placebo then I would not have been able reproduce the results upwards of ten times. Not to mention I am familiar with the effects of deep introspection and the effects that I get from coleus, while mild, are definitely stronger than meditation. I tried to make it clear in my report that the effects were too strong to be placebo but did not explicitly mention it.

Just in case you are not convinced though, I have more to say. My original report was longer but I wanted to break it into two parts. Here is the other part:

Coleus is very nice on its own, but I have recently found that it really shines when mixed with other things. For instance, smoking some plain leaf salvia after having taken coleus is very interesting. The salvia is slightly potentiated, but the effects of coleus are changed pretty drastically. After the initial effects of the salvia, my eyes became bloodshot. I felt a pretty strong head high and a stoned type of feeling. There were slight CEV's, which I don't get from coleus or salvia alone, and the psychedelic mind effects were increased. i never get any of these efects from plain leaf salvia alone. It may not sound like all that much, but it is when you compare it to coleus alone. I would even go as far as to say that it is almost not worth taking coleus if you don't smoke some salvia during the trip.

Coleus also goes well with morning glories but is easily overshadowed by the seeds. But the best coleus combo I have ever tried was coleus, morning glories, and salvia. As I said before the coleus didn't effect the morning glory trip much. I decided to smoke some plain leaf salvia to see what would happen.

Once again the the salvia was potentiated a little. This couldn't be attributed to the coleus at first because morning glories slightly increase the effects of salvia for me, but after the initial salvia effects this time, I had near complete ego loss. At first I had no idea who or what I was or where I was. Then I slowly pieced together that I was a human in some sort of room and that I had a name, but I couldn't remember everything atonce. Every so often I would remember something. It would be very random and in great detail. Thinking back, these memories were mostly things that I have never consciously remembered before. Then that would leave my mind and a I would remember something else.

I also saw a strange halo surrounding my visual field and the open eye visuals were more clear. There was a buzzing feeling through out my body that was linked to the music and moved around my body to the beats and nuances of each song. I felt like I was inside of the song. I attempted to change the song and found that my balance was drastically effected. Walking was very weird and I felt content to lay down and listen to music, so I didn't go for a walk.

I went to bed and when I woke up I still felt really weird. I remembered everything and the visuals were gone, but for lack of a better word, I still felt high. My balance was off and my body felt weird. It was similar to the first plateau of a DXM trip. This lasted most of the next day.

None of these effects could have been from the morning glories and salvia alone. I know morning glories can be pretty strong, but the dose that I took isn't even enough to cause major visuals let alone ego loss and long lasting dissociation. Morning glories and plain leaf salvia together are only a little stronger than morning glories alone so that is also not going to cause such drastic effects.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It is hard for extreme potentiation to be caused by the placebo effect. There is no way that I could have imagined that I forgot I was a human or imagined that I felt what was similar to a first plateau dose of DXM. And there is also no way that I concentrated hard enough to imagine this either.

[Gunter]

I would even go as far as to say that it is almost not worth taking coleus if you don't smoke some salvia during the trip.

interesting.

Placebo effects are too, they certainly have nothing to do with imagination, only belief. Placebo is actually rather psychoactive and can be remarkably consistent. i look forward to you letting others try your preparation and for them to report on this

Considering that you say it is mild, and that a known psychedelic (impomoea) overshadowed it, it does not seem to be psychedelic in any sense i am familiar with. What is the dose of coleus that results in the inability to operate a motor vehicle?

one of the most interesting effects of placebo type interactions is pain relief, not only can placebo actually allow pain relief, but it is said that giving people pain medication without telling them that they have taken it can prevent it from being effective.

Expectation is very interesting:

A placebo described as a muscle relaxant will cause muscle relaxation and, if described as the opposite, muscle tension. A placebo presented as a stimulant will have this effect on heart rhythm, and blood pressure, but, when administered as a depressant, the opposite effect.Alcohol placebos can cause intoxication and sensorimotor impairment. Perceived ergogenic aids can increase endurance, speed and weight-lifting ability, leading to the question of whether placebos should be allowed in sport competition. Placebos can help smokers quit. Perceived allergens that are not truly allergenic can cause allergies...

Another negative consequence is that placebos can cause side-effects associated with real treatment. One example of this is with those that have already taken an opiate, can then show respiratory depression when given it again in the form of a placebo.

Withdrawal symptoms can also occur after placebo treatment. This was found, for example, after the discontinuation of the Women's Health Initiative study of hormone replacement therapy for menopause. Women had been on placebo for an average of 5.7 years.

honestly what you describe as mild is likely not Placebo, because placebo should be stronger than the effects you describe.

However placebo can work very consistently, it isn't like a person takes a placebo and it works sometimes but not others, typically in people who a placebo is active in, it is consistently so, and there are real and measurable physiological effects. Placebo psychedelics can cause a psychedelic experience, such effects are not imaginary, they are real effects from a fake drug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

It is really hard to rule out placebo for something said to be mild in action. I doubt i could tell the difference between a placebo and a mild drug, but i'd bet that the placebo would be the stronger of the two.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Gunter

[CβL]

From PowerfulMedicine's description, I would correlate the active much more strongly with an anti-histamine than just about anything else. It sounds quite similar to a low dosage of Diphenhydramine (H1-receptor antagonist).

I think it would be a good working hypothesis as the action of Coleus if the effects are replicable. I bet there's a test which we could use to test this. I don't know of one yet.

[PowerfulMedicine]

Considering that you say it is mild, and that a known psychedelic (impomoea) overshadowed it, it does not seem to be psychedelic in any sense i am familiar with. What is the dose of coleus that results in the inability to operate a motor vehicle?

 

Psychedelic is a subjective term. Just because it was overshadowed does not mean that the effects don't bear some resemblance to other substances known as psychedelics. I use the term "psychedelic" to convey that it has mind expanding effects to some extent. These effects were just too weak to be noticeable in comparison to those of morning glory seeds when combined. Here is a question. Would you be able feel a threshold dose of morning glory seeds if you were totally drunk? Probably not. But there would still have been some kind of very mild psychedelic effects.

I don't see why it is so hard to accept that coleus could have mild effects. Nobody denies that chamomile is a mild but effective sedative, yet in my experience coleus is more sedative than chamomile. Does this not constitute actual effects?

And as for a dose where one would not be able to operate a motor vehicle, I do not know of one. It would be a way too many leaves to consume with out an effective extraction. But since the active compounds are unknown, it is hard to come up with a good extraction tek. Once again I will bring up chamomile. Chamomile is psychoactive. Is there a dose that will result in the inability to drive?

[PowerfulMedicine]

From PowerfulMedicine's description, I would correlate the active much more strongly with an anti-histamine than just about anything else. It sounds quite similar to a low dosage of Diphenhydramine (H1-receptor antagonist).

 

I have done diphenhydramine before and coleus feels nothing like it. There is no discomfort at all besides ocassional histamine release which wouldn't make sense if it were an anti-histamine. The effects also bear no resemblance to other anticholinergics like datura. It is not at all intoxicating like with deliriants.

[CβL]

How do you know histamine was released? Have you got some blood tests?

I'm not so versed on histamine ligands, so could not say whether there is an explanation for what you regard as histamine release, or whether it's totally relevent or not.

Well you have to understand that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's why I'm so skeptical. You've presented a pretty good account, but that does not go anywhere to overturning the mostly negative accounts so far. I would like for you to be correct, so please give us some photos of the plants you have used, and any other information that would allow us to replicate the results.

[phyllode]

Gunter wrote:

I am all for real evidence and information about this plant being psychoactive.

And I suppose you want real names on the internet as well. I have given enough information including strain description for people to attempt replication.

With your attitude I doubt you'll personally find any new psychoactive plants.

[Gunter]

And I suppose you want real names on the internet as well. I have given enough information including strain description for people to attempt replication.

With your attitude I doubt you'll personally find any new psychoactive plants.

 

By all means go discover as many new psychoactive plants as you can by sharing rumors online without any details.

If that counts as science and discovery, and if you think you have a good attitude, then black is clearly white and gravity pushes away from the earth. I know you feel like you contributed something to this thread, that you are some intrepid explorer of psychedelic plants, but from what you shared and didn't i can't say you shared anything new or have any objectivity in this matter.

As for chamomile, nobody would claim it is a psychedelic.

That is the claim that has been made about coleus.

Other psychedelics can cause states where one should not drive.

There has not been any evidence other than second hand rumor, that coleus is a psychedelic. So many facts have been twisted in this thread to make it seem like it is, but not even Mutant is making that claim. You can ignore where the plant is native to, that it does not grow wild in mexico, that it has never been observed being used by the Mazatec, that Wasson never said it was just that he got mixed info about it, you can ignore that Hoffman and Schultes never authored anything claiming it was used and the man who did is notorious for publishing false rumors as fact. You can ignore the experimentation of countless others and the fact that almost all the people who have tried it disagree about what it does, how it is prepared, how much the dose is etc.

So insult me with pathetic lines like claiming i am for people using real names on the internet, that is what pseudointellecuals do when they are called out, they just call names and insult the person who calls them on their bullshit. That doesn't mean suddenly you are right or that there is a smoking gun for coleus to be active as a psychedelic, and if the best anyone has is that it is a super mild sedative that they report works better with weed, salvia or harmala, well that is a joke if it is supposed to indicate activity. I bet it works great if you hit your head against the wall over and over too.

coleus=chamomile=psychedelic? that is the best we have so far?

what kind of standard are you guys holding yourself to for this?

It seems pretty low.

With chamomile the active ingredient is known. The effects and doses are consistent among almost all users, and the sedative action has been proven in replicated studies.

I'd love to see this for coleus.

When placebo is known to be way stronger and more consistent in single individuals that the effects being reported for coleus... that isn't evidence of action. It isn't like people in the scientific community have ignored coleus for the last 50 years.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Gunter

[phyllode]

All I'm trying to do is mention what I personally consider to be a credible report of pyschoactivity, though it is anonymous, which others can choose to further investigate.

All you do is compile endless reasons for why it dosen't work or isn't worth investigating.

Now, which is more pathetic, really?

Gunter, you are very easily 'insulted'. Maybe you should chill out with some c. blumei. It's very relaxing.

Edited October 31, 2012 by phyllode

[mutant]

Awesome addition to the thread

PowerfulMedicine, in your opinion does the strain play a role? have you used the same plant in your experimentations? would you share a couple photos of the plant you used?

even thought of making an extract with washing fresh leaves, like with sally?

Gunter, if you don't share our interest in investigating the activity of this plant, then don't participate. This is getting a bit replicating itself.

There has not been any evidence other than second hand rumor, that coleus is a psychedelic. So many facts have been twisted in this thread to make it seem like it is, but not even Mutant is making that claim

not quite true. first, PM's report is first hand. my reports of mild psychoactivity are also first hand.

there's a definate psychedelic twist in adding coleus to a joint

my instict tells my this is a mildly psychedelic plant from the first time I tried it.

PowerfulMedicine's report seems to confirm the 120-140 fresh leaves of the plant theory, so I don't know really what's your objection.

Unless PowerfulMedicine is the most awesome of all trolls, which I would admire, he sounds pretty credible...

I remember the fresh leaves thing from those old reports, so it sounds even more credible...

[phyllode]

Good points Mutant.

Gunter wrote:

It isn't like people in the scientific community have ignored coleus for the last 50 years.

It has been mostly ignored until the study in Chem Pharm Bull (Tokyo). 2001 Jul;49(7):927-9.Diastereomeric diterpenes from Coleus blumei.Ragas CY, Templora VF, Rideout JA.

These are in a similar class as Salvia diterpenes.They have been tested only for anti-microbial activity. No scientfic tests in humans or animals of psychoactivity have been conducted to my knowledge. My point regarding it's unusually wide wild distribution, is that it seems to have moved around a lot in pre-conquest times, and that it's taxonomic status is complex and not uniformly agreed upon.

Science has ignored many psychoactive plants in the world for the past 50 years.

Edited October 31, 2012 by phyllode

[Gunter]

PowerfulMedicine's report seems to confirm the 120-140 fresh leaves of the plant theory, so I don't know really what's your objection.

 

You mean this theory? this is your previous quote:

Other than that, for those who are into it, you can always try to eat 120-140 mid sized and large leaves. Given it's the correct strain, you are supposed to get a 2-3 hour mild but psychedelic high, reminiscent to psilocybin.

I said there is no first hand evidence of psychedelic activity, sure there is an account of it being a very mild psychoactive, but the action has nothing in common with any psychedelics.

So you are saying that PMs report substantiates that coleus is like mushrooms?

You really think an intelligent person who has had mushrooms would agree with that?

mutant, you have been saying it is active when smoked but PM had this to say:

I will first say that I have never gotten any effects from smoking leaves of this plant but I have also never mixed it with anything so I cannot rule out the possibility of it being active by this route.

Now examine the logic here, it didn't have any effect for him when smoked, (that=inactive) but since he did not combine it with something that is active, he can't rule out that it is active when smoked...

Is that what we are calling active, something that only has an effect when used with another thing known to be active?

A lot of people here know better than to trust such reasoning, i am not the only one.

This idea that the plant is a psychedelic like mushrooms, that is supposed to be true because it is a mild sedative? Placebo has not been ruled out and there is zero evidence to support the idea that it is anything like any psychedelic, let alone mushrooms. PM even stated this:

Psychedelic is a subjective term. Just because it was overshadowed does not mean that the effects don't bear some resemblance to other substances known as psychedelics. I use the term "psychedelic" to convey that it has mind expanding effects to some extent. These effects were just too weak to be noticeable in comparison to those of morning glory seeds when combined

So we are supposed to believe that 140 leaves is the threshold dose?

so what is a real dose, 500 leaves? 1000?

At what point does it become a real psychedelic and not something that people compare to chamomile?

Do you, mutant, consider chamomile to be a psychedelic?

Phyllode, you keep talking about the distribution of Coleus, what evidence do you have for it growing wild in mexico?

I'd like you to share your sources. What book of flora lists the plant as growing in the new world? What evidence do you have for your claims along these lines?

http://www.sagewisdom.org/phytochemical.html

Ethnobotanical reports suggesting that Coleus blumei was similarly used as a psychotropic by the Mazatec (Wasson, 1962) caused us to screen one sample of this species as well for possible content ]

at least one selection was tested for Salvinorin, note that all Sally D is active, zero inactive strains are known.

Froms Otts paper that i linked to earlier:

As for the Coleus species said to belong to the same ‘family’ as Salvia divinorum, Coleus blumei is known to contain terpenoids (García et al. 1973), flavonoids and coumarins (Lamprecht et al. 1975) of unknown psychopharmacology.

So coleus contains coumarins?

So does Chamomile!

Maybe if you drink enough chamomile tea it will be like mushrooms?

In that same paper Ott says that coleus is clearly introduced, so we believe Ott when it is convenient and disregard him when it isn't? What kind of objectivity is that?

I am open to any real evidence that coleus is a true psychedelic.

C. blumei has been fairly well studied, it is known to have quercetin and Astragalin, which can treat hypertension. It is known as Ati-ati,check out Traditional Malay Medicinal Plants By Muhamad Zakaria & Mustafa Ali Mohdpage 131, it is used to treat hypertension and there is more chemical information there as well.

Coleus as ati-ati has been ingested in various forms for centuries, yet there is no report of it being a psychedelic from centuries of use. It is used medicinally for several things and has been rather well studied because of this, including chemically.

If it was anything like mushrooms or any other psychedelic, why would that have not been reported in over 100 years of use and study?

Edited November 24, 2011 by Gunter

[phyllode]

It's the relatively recently determined diterpenes which are of interest. Almost 50 new diterpene salvinorin analogues have been determined in the past few years at academic level, many active.

Solenostemon scutteloides (C. blumei) is found wild in Peru: Neotropical Lamiaceae Herbarium Specimens

It should also be remembered that Salvia divinorum is also believed not to occur in the wild in Mexico, or anywhere. There is apparently a very close relative in South America. I just don't think enough research has been done yet on it's variation or diterpene chemistry of different cultivars, nor if wild strains in different continents are genetically the same, is my point.

There are a number of plants with traditional medicinal uses which in sufficient doses are psychoactive, but not widely recorded as such.

A few people here are reporting effects, but you suggest this is placebo. Why? Is this not rather dismissive of those wanting to explore and share knowledge of this plant?

Edited November 24, 2011 by phyllode

[Gunter]

http://proseanet.org/prosea/e-prosea_detail.php?frt=&id=385

Plectranthus scutellarioides (L.) R.Br.

Synonyms: Coleus atropurpureus Benth. (1830), Coleus scutellarioides (L.) Benth. (1830), Coleus blumei Benth. (1832), Solenostemon scutellarioides (L.) Codd (1975).

The roots of Plectranthus scutellarioides are used internally in the Moluccas to treat diarrhoea and colic, and the leaves as anthelmintic and to treat urinary complaints, whereas sap is squeezed into the eye in the case of eye injury, and rubbed on swellings. Elsewhere in Indonesia the sap or a decoction is used as an abortivum and emmenagogue, and to treat haemorrhoids, inflamed eyes and boils. In Malaysia, a decoction of the leaves is used to stimulate digestion, as a sedative, to treat dyspepsia and congestion of the liver, and externally against swellings, smallpox and ophthalmia. Fresh leaves are applied in the Philippines externally or in cataplasm to bruises and contusions, and to treat headache. In Papua New Guinea, young leaves are baked and squeezed whilst hot onto fresh cuts and sores. Plectranthus scutellarioides is commonly cultivated for its ornamental purplish foliage.

Mild sedative, sure, medicinal, absolutely.

Psychedelic?

Where is the evidence for that?

Are we going to ignore that the Mazatec shaman said that the plants were purchased by his daughter at the market because they were pretty and that they were not use like Salvia?

http://lucidconsciousness.com/psychotropia/?p=1098

Some 30% of subjects who smoked dried Mexican

Coleus blumei leaves reported effects similar to

those produced by smoking a small dosage of

Salvia divinorum (increase in pulse rate,

sensations of bodily heaviness, rolling sensations,

lights dancing before the eyes). It may be that a

particular bodily chemistry is required to react to

the plant. It is also possible that the effects are

perceived only after repeated attempts (as is the

case with Cannabis and Salvia divinorum).

1/3 of the subjects experienced effects?

Placebo is often in the range of 40-60%!!!

Now while that link says that Wasson discovered that Coleus was used by the Mazatec, Wasson never once claimed such a thing in any of his works ever.

That link also mentions that it is not native.

So we are going to ignore the shaman, the mazatec shaman, who says that it isn't used?

We are going to ignore Schultes, who says it isn't native?

Are we going to ignore the expert on Salvia, Daniel Seibert when he travels to mexico and reports the following:

myself, as well as a

larger number of people that I know, [have]

undertaken experiments with this plant, some

of them using very large amounts of leaves.

In no case was there any type of effect. …

A communication from the ethnopharmacologist

Daniel J. Seibert suggests the same. He

was in the area of the Mazatecs, and wrote me

that only one single Indian there maintained

that coleus is psychoactive. All of the other

Indians denied this. (Schuldes 1995, 78*)

So a man who studies Salvia in the region did follow up on the Coleus thing and found only a single indian who said it was active? What are we going to believe, that all of the others who were open about the use of Salvia lied and only one told the truth, or that only one lied and all the others told the truth?

Or maybe only one indian had the right "strain"?

[phyllode]

And so we're also going to ignore the few people wanting to share purported effects on the net?

Also, your understanding of the importance of strain in many psychoactive plants seems, frankly, primitive.

[Gunter]

Solenostemon scutteloides (C. blumei) is found wild in Peru: Neotropical Lamiaceae Herbarium Specimens

It should also be remembered that Salvia divinorum is also believed not to occur in the wild in Mexico, or anywhere. There is apparently a very close relative in South America. I just don't think enough research has been done yet on it's variation or diterpene chemistry of different cultivars, nor if wild strains in different continents are genetically the same, is my point.

 

Thank you for the Herbarium link!

It is known to be used in peru as a medicinal plant, though that does not mean it is native, but wild yes.

Salvia divinorum not believed to occur in the wild? Do you have reference for that?

[Gunter]

And so we're also going to ignore the few people wanting to share purported effects on the net?

Also, your understanding of the importance of strain in many psychoactive plants seems, frankly, primitive.

 

I haven't ignored it at all, i've addressed it, correlated it with known uses and studies and have considered it rather objectively, it isn't like the report correlates with a psychedelic whatsoever.

You can say my understanding is primitive, go ahead, but your use of strain in this case is just a way for you to argue that it is active as a psychedelic despite very strong evidence to the contrary.

I realize that no matter what, you are going to say that it is active as a psychedelic, that you require no evidence of it being active to make this claim. I am open to the idea that it is a psychedelic, unlike you i want evidence to support this. I might be one of the least biased people active in this thread when it comes down to the action being claimed. I have tried it for myself many times and want others to try it and report on it. I am not someone who twists words like psychedelic to argue something without evidence to support it. I am someone who insists that we be at least a little more scientific than taking lone reports of mild activity to support such claims.

comparing it to chamomile in action does not count as evidence of it being a psychedelic, saying that it is active when you combine it with other psychedelics is likewise not evidence. I have experimented with many 'strains' of this plant for many years and have never had any effect.

One quote above shows that in a test only 1/3 of the people who smoked it reported any effects, are we to believe that some active strains are only active in some people? How do you explain this?

some armchair ethnobotanists insist that something is psychedelic without evidence and i am just supposed to accept that? I am supposed to ignore centuries of use, dozens of studies and investigations including my own? i want people to draw their own conclusions. i am not saying it isn't active as a psychedelic so much as i am saying that there is no evidence that it is a psychedelic, unless we count chamomile as a psychedelic...

What is the dose of the proper strain that results in genuine psychedelic activity?

What is the preparation method?

It is established that it is used as a mild sedative, but what about what is being claimed here, that it is like mushrooms?

Currently the accepted name of this species is Plectranthus scutellarioides, not Solenostemon.

more data:

http://www.stuartxchange.org/Mayana.html

It is also known that this plant contains rosmarinic acid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosmarinic_acid

Rosmarinic acid has a number of interesting biological activities, e.g. antiviral, antibacterial, antiinflammatory and antioxidant. It is also a potential anxiolytic as it acts as a GABA transaminase inhibitor.

The wikipedia entry for anxiolytic says this:

Anxiolytics are also known as minor tranquilizers.

this is entirely consistent with the action of Coleus as reported in this thread, but it fails to support the rumors that it is a psychedelic

I believe that the active ingredients and the effects of this species are well known and well studied. Sure strains are going to vary in their content of these actives, but there is no evidence to support that there is any strain that is capable of acting as a true psychedelic.

people say the red types are the more active?

http://www.znaturforsch.com/ac/v59c/s59c0554.pdf

RA accumulation in red,

green and variegated leaves of C. blumei plants

grown in pots and in shoots cloned in vitro was

also analyzed. The red C. blumei hybrid accumulated the highest RA amount: leaves from twoyear-old pot plants had 6.9% RA in the dry tissue

mass

There are no effects or uses being reported from this plant that cannot be explained in terms of the known chemistry. Rosmarinic acid can explain every effect and traditional use reported for this plant, including the effects reported by PM and Mutant in this thread. Coleus can be a decent source of RA and it seems likely that some strains would have a greater content than others, considering that this has already been shown by scientific study. The idea that this plant has not been well studied in terms of use, chemistry or origin is unfounded.

More on RA:

http://www.ankalet.com/sabinsa/Rosmarinicacid3.htm

now when PM says that he used warm water to make the tea that was sedative that matches the method used in this patent for obtaining RA:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4354035.html

It now has surprisingly been found that rosmarinic acid may be obtained in a simple manner in high purity and with high yields when starting from the plants of balmint, i.e. Melissa officinalis. When starting from the ground plant material of balmmint such as leaves, roots, stems, blossoms or seeds, in particular the leaves of balmmint, it is not necessary to degrease them before extraction. The ground plant material is extracted 1 to 3 times with the 10 to 30, preferably with the 20 fold amount of water, i.e. 1 kg of ground plant material is extracted 1 to 3 times with 10 to 30, preferably 20 kg of water, at 80° to 100° C. for 30 to 60 minutes each times, with stirring.

And while i believe that the psychedelic action of coleus is entirely unfounded and mythical, it is possible to create RA specific extractions for the material and test them for activity, including in conjunction with other substances. A mild sedative effect could easily be overlooked by people trying to achieve a psychedelic effect. I'd like to see the effects of RA compared to those of coleus and also see people attempt to test coleus that has had the RA content removed.

I'd like so see or hear about an experience with this plant that does not resemble the known actions and uses for RA. So far nothing like that has been presented in this thread.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Gunter

[phyllode]

Gunter wrote:

Salvia divinorum not believed to occur in the wild? Do you have reference for that?

There is no absolute conclusion, only 15 very small populations outside of direct cultivation are known, which are not conclusively 'wild'. The plant is almost infertile. This was Wasson's theory. Ref. The botany of Salvia Divinorum (Labiacae)

I doubt coleus could ever be exactly 'like mushrooms', as it contains diterpenes, however my reliable informant said it was visual, time-distorting and relaxant. You don't have to believe me, or my friend, but you sure like to shoot the messengers. If you can't be bothered testing out a few different strains of it yourself, why so assult with doubt others who wish to do so?

If you're so convinced we're all wrong then, as suggested earlier, why keep participating? OK, you say there's no evidence. Why not let the rest of us find some without so much bashing?

Currently the accepted name of this species is Plectranthus scutellarioides, not Solenostemon.

This may be so. There was a revision of Plectranthus fairly recently, and there is a lot of argument about them, and their taxonomy in general. Some botanists, for instance, accept only 5-7 species of Plectranthus in Australia, whereas others have named up to 35. The latter kind of taxonomist would possibly divide P. scutellaroides into sub-species, if only simply for horticultural benefit.

And finally, your references to various medicinal actions of various coleus compounds is ludicrous, as having such activity does not mean that they do not also have psychoactivity. e.g. Anti-oxidants can be MAOIs can be psychoactive etc. The compounds have been tested for the mentioned biological activity, but not for behavioural or psychoactive effects. Your determination to conclude this plant has no effects is relentless.

Edited November 24, 2011 by phyllode

[Gunter]

And finally, your references to various medicinal actions of various coleus compounds is ludicrous, as having such activity does not mean that they do not also have psychoactivity.

 

I realize you have not been reading my posts, i do not contest coleus as psychoactive, i contest it only as psychedelic.Rosmarinic acid is clearly psychoactive and has all of the effects reported thus far for Coleus.

e.g. Anti-oxidants can be MAOIs can be psychoactive etc.

Really?

MAOIs are psychoactive?

More mythology.

You are a rumor mill.

Bashing? that isn't what i am doing at all.

Evidence? that isn't what you are finding.

It is bad science when someone takes the result they want to see and searches for evidence of it, why not just look at the evidence that already exists? Why ignore that? because it doesn't match the conclusion you have already? I have not made up my mind at all on this issue, you have. I am asking for evidence and providing more data and information about the chemistry and ethnobotany of Coleus in this thread than anyone else here. I doubt anyone here has put as much time and effort into this topic as I have, and i am always open to evidence of action of Coleus that is psychedelic. Just provide some.

Go ahead and find some evidence already, i haven't stopped you at all.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Gunter

[phyllode]

If you believe most rMAOIs (above a dosage) are not psychoactive, you haven't tried them or come from another planet. That is ridiculously ludicrous.

You're a rumour mill of 'does not work' stories.

As for what the difference between 'psychoactive', 'visionary', or 'psychedelic' - is that the actual whole point of this thread? It does something which interests some people, but not you. Why do you care?

Edited November 24, 2011 by phyllode

[Gunter]

If you believe most rMAOIs (above a dosage) are not psychoactive, you haven't tried them or come from another planet.

I have used RIMA harmala alkaloids for years, they are legal to use where i am, they interact with GABA, have SSRI properties and affect glutamic acid. However MAOIs in general are not demonstrated to be psychoactive and in-vitro MAOI action does not equate to in-vivo action. there is also nothing to suggest that the psychoactive action of Harmala alkaloids is due to RIMA effects, there is a lot of study about this including some very recent material from Johns Hopkins university. I actually try to keep as up to date as possible on this matter.

As for what the difference between 'psychoactive', 'visionary', or 'psychedelic' - is that the actual whole point of this thread?

When it is claimed that it is psychedelic because it is a mild psychoactive, that is silly. The idea that psychoactive=psychedelic is absurd. The idea that it was used by shamans is unsupported, the idea that it is like mushrooms is unsupported.

It does something which interests some people, but not you. Why do you care?

 

on the contrary the action it exhibits does interest me a great deal, otherwise i would not have experimented with it or been researching it

I care for several reasons, the first is that i prefer truth to fiction. The second is because the study of psychedelic and psychoactive plants is something i have been doing for over 15 years. The third reason is that anyone can post anything on a forum and there is an utter lack of review, i'd rather there be a little bit of a scientific approach and objectivity in this thread, than there be none.

If someone said it was a mild psychoactive that worked better with other things than by itself i would have no problem, that is clear enough and very likely due to the known chemistry.

You said it was not well studied, that isn't true. It is very well studied, both in terms of taxonomy, origin, chemistry, traditional use, psychoactivity and in relation to the Mazatec. I am pointing that out and providing refferences and evidence to that effect.

I don't think you are as open minded about this as I am, or that you have put as much time and energy into researching it as i have. I have provided evidence supporting all reported uses and actions of the plant based upon known chemistry. You have provided rumor and have disregarded pretty much everything published and said about this plant.

Why do you care?

Edited November 24, 2011 by Gunter

[phyllode]

The first hand report given to me made me rethink this plant entirely. That's why I care. I would have given up if I'd only read what you had concluded on it.

Also, the finding of diterpenes in Coleus blumei is significant.

Ps Harmala alkaloids, as well as hypericin, above a certain dosage can result in completely vivid visions, though not of the indolic style. The first few times I encountered ska maria, many years before legislation, and with very few reports, I found it simply sedative/hypnotic, as it was below a threshold.

You seem obsessed with the word psychedelic.

Edited November 24, 2011 by phyllode

[mutant]

gunter man you're so doing it wrong.

get a grip on yrself, you're acting like a fanatic, I'm not sure what you are defending here, some 'precious', maybe the holy trinity of the classic psychedelics. Football?

it is mildly psychoactive, that's why it seems you should quid on 140 leaves to get an effect

it's mildly psychedelic, in that it enhances vision and colours, and I found it was rather stimulant rather than sedative, this when in synergy with pot. not overly psychedelic, but definately NOT sedative - mildly enhancing , it is...

Synergy dude, synergy. You need blind studies, all I have to offer is my own experience, and seed of what I believe to be a decent strain.

I know there are dozens of active plants or extracts that many people try and dont feel anything. Sally D was like that in earlier days, the older guys say.

Fuck with all this scepticism.

this is not a story of a friends friend.

[Gunter]

I know harmala alkaloids are highly active, however this action is not due to their MAOI effects and many MAOI molecules are incapable of being visionary.

I am very interested in more information about Hypericin being visionary.

i have not given up on Coleus being psychedelic, i like science and it is all about probability and evidence. Nothing is proven in science, it is just demonstrated and indicated and if new information comes to light, then that information is not rejected. i have no intention to reject any form of evidence at all, not even testimony, but that does not mean i will accept it without scrutiny, i expect no different treatment for anything i share or claim.

If someone can demonstrate coleus as an active psychedelic i would be very pleased.

I think it has been demonstrated as a psychoactive, something i did not know before this thread, which i have learned a lot from engaging in, it is clear that it can act as a mild sedative that has a myriad of interesting effects, including being very healthy for you. I believe that rosmarinic acid can be demonstrated to have all of these same effects, and that coleus has been demonstrated as a potent source of this molecule.

This thread has made me want to grow coleus again (i grew a lot of it in the past, many forms and colors of it) and extract the RA from it and test that both by itself and with other things. That it has anti-inflammatory properties makes it a good combination with cactus, which explains why it is employed with San Pedro in Peru, something i did not know before this thread. It can be used to treat all sorts of conditions and is a rather amazing plant.

However i do not believe that it is psychedelic, that it was traditionally used by the Mazatc, or that the effects that are reported for it cannot be explained in terms of the chemistry that is known about it.

Now as to hypericin, do you have any links to reports of it being visionary at high doses?

What is the active dose for visions from this molecule?

[Gunter]

it's mildly psychedelic, in that it enhances vision and colours, and I found it was rather stimulant rather than sedative, this when in synergy with pot.

 

You are using the term psychedelic very loosely.

Calling something a psychedelic because it has synergy with something else is highly questionable.

I wish you were more open minded, objective and scientific about this Mutant.

I know there are dozens of active plants or extracts that many people try and dont feel anything. Sally D was like that in earlier days, the older guys say.

And yet Sally D is consistently active, has had the action explained chemically and has been totally corroborated, as have pretty much all active plants. the reports of it being active are unquestionable, the evidence that it is active is abundant, but this is not the case for Coleus being a psychedelic.

There are no active plants or substances that people try and do not feel anything with some few exceptions, for example DMT and Mushrooms do not work at all in a very small subset of the human population.

I am not denying your experiences Mutant, nor your opinion. at no point did i say you didn't feel or experience what you said you did, rather i have pointed out that the actions you share can be explained in terms of known chemistry

more than this though, you keep insisting that it has some type of action that you have failed to report, not one of your own experiences indicates that it is a psychedelic when taken by itself, and yet you keep insisting that it is, despite the lack of evidence to this effect

Again, i wish you were objective about this, i am not denying that it is psychedelic, i am asking for evidence that it is

i view you to be the most skeptical person in this thread Mutant, clearly your mind is closed on this issue. you made up your mind well before it began and don't care what the science says, what the studies say, or what the experiences of countless others are, you only accept information that supports the conclusions you already have, that is bad science

I am all for people trying it and reporting on it, whatever strains they can find. But i am also not going to dismiss over a century of use and study of the plant in order to support rumors that have not been supported by any real evidence.

A psychedelic should not lack action as a psychedelic when taken by itself, that seems obvious enough

Edited November 24, 2011 by Gunter