OC and aya

[toast]

A friend is currently in Peru & is considering drinking aya on the weekend.

She is currently on Oxycontin, and is unsure if it is safe to take MOAI at the same time.

She has research thoroughly but has not found anything specifically about OC & MOAIs, so she asked me to post here.

Thanks for any help.

Edited October 6, 2010 by toast

[Teotzlcoatl]

When using Ayahuasca, Peyote or Iboga for addiction treatment it is recommended that the drug of addiction (in this case an opiate) is abstained from for at least 48-72 hours before using the entheogen.... I'd say 24 hours at a minimum. It will be much more effective this way.

[nothinghead]

I PM'ed you a link to a fantastic write-up on another forum (where Teotzlcoatl likely takes/modifies info from) which says that opiates (and so, I extrapolate, opioids) may be dangerous to combine with MAOIs. There is a risk of respiratory depression from combining B caapi with opiates. The relevant thread on OC and related medications says:

"As to oxycodone (and codeine), a recent review article (Gillman 2005) suggests that it does not provoke serotonin toxicity with MAOIs because it lacks serotonin reuptake inhibitory property (at the difference of DXM and methadone for instance). Yet, if one wants to err on the side of total extra absolute safety, simple maths based on the longest known terminal half-life of oxycodone (w/ slow release tablets) give a delay of 18 hours to wait before drinking the tea."

You can check up on this yourself (the half-life, and so how long the medication is likely to be in the body), and help your friend make a decision about how long to abstain from medication before drinking based on how severe the withdrawals will be. It may be that 48-72 hours is unnecessary and uncomfortable for her and so could detract from the session.

Maybe Teotzlcoatl can say a bit more about why aya will be more effective if the period of abstinence from medication is longer? It could be that there are some other factors at play apart from medical safety.

[planthelper]

i would never mix any opioid substances with aya or MAOI's at all.

i would suggest to be clean for at least 2 or 3 weeks, in my case thats only pot and alco, but even with those i would never use aya, just 72 hours after stopping using.

strong aya, specialy with high caapi content, can depress the breathing already on it's own,

but maybe very weak aya, could be safly admistered (short simmered, almost cold water extractions), 72 hour after stopping those meds.

you need an experienced person to guide you.

just to say, if you are on ssri's, i would at least stopp them for 4 weeks or more...

[toast]

thanks for the feedback & links

I'll advice my mate to wait for least a few weeks after stopping her meds

thanks again

[C_T]

what about aya with a non caapi MAIO, like pharma type...

[planthelper]

what about aya with a non caapi MAIO, like pharma type...

 

i'm not an aya specialist, but i don't think using pharma MAOI would make any difference, compared to caapi, same dangers apply.

[DayLight]

i dont know about you guys, but stopping the meds for "48-72 hours" and then using ayahuasca seems like a PROFOUNDLY bad idea. if someone is prescribed a daily dose of oxycodone during that time they will be deep in opiate withdrawl, a pretty hellish space that it would seem both mentally and physically dangerous and unpleasant to use ayahuasca while in the throes of.

for one, b. caapi is a reversible MAOI inhibitor, and does not carry many of the dangers that non reversible ones do, such as moclobemide. maybe someone who is more versed on the matter could describe these differences and comment on whether or not the differences are relevant to opiate use combined with MAOI's, if there was even a drug interaction to worry about in the first place?

and secondly, someone who is on a daily, maintenance dose of oxycodone will not experience the same kind of high a non tolerant user or recreational user that is always taking higher doses to get effects does. as you build tolerance to the dose you are on, and the high is not as powerful, the worries about respiratory depression lessen. how long has the person been using oxycodone, what is the dose, and what effects do they get from it? if someone is pretty tolerant to their dose and no longer feels like they get "fucked up" when using their medication i wouldnt worry about respiratory depression to much. i would likely just cut the dose back by a little bit to account for any potentiation of respiratory depression by the aya.

the religious and traditional implications behind not using the OC while drinking aya i understand, but as far as drug interactions go, if the person is opiate tolerant and dependent, it seems far less dangerous for them to remain on the OC while drinking aya than it does for them to stop OC for 2-3 days and then use aya.

[AndyAmine.]

I agree with a lot of what your saying but just because someone no longer feels a buzz from a dose maintained dose of opioids does not mean that the risks of respiratory depression are significantly lessened.

From personal experience I can tell you that takning powerful psychedelics while in withdrawal is serious business and can either make you and break you if done with reckless abandon.

IMO these substances should be taken in low doses over a period or reduction or in mild WD, not cracking the head open. thats useful AFTER the fact.

Don't just multiply as you would logically think they do, they can have a exponential affect multiplying many more times than if taken individually.

Eg: 1 cap of heroin may get someone nicely high and 1/2 a rohypnol may get the same person nicely high and if those 2 highs were mixed at those subjective strengths of affect it would be fine and enjoyable but mix them both together at those doses and it could be like tainge 3 caps of heroin and 2 rohypnol leaving the person very dead.

Any types of drugs should be reduced in quantity when dosing more than one at a time.