reason behind alkaloid content of plants

[Hagakure]

well co-evoltion requires those all important mutations and natural selection. in the jungle you have a plant that renders the animal into a drugged state leaving it vulnerable to attack. animals who like the taste get killed - those who avoid survive.

there are plenty of other plants to eat so they will stick to those instead.

in the desert or in places with less biodiversity or a dependence on the plant already will favour natural selection to those that have mutations that allow them to eat this precious resource.

hope thats clear

 

quote:

---

now we just need to find out how to increase yeilds in our friends.

---

well if you got a lot of time selective breeding has worked for a long time.

if you are in a rush however comparing dna profiles and modifying genes seems the go. microarrays will feature heavily in further research.

of course the good old fashion way was to radioactively treat tissue cultures etc and grow up the plants and see how they change.

i would say this is responsible for changes in almost every agricultural crop we have today. limitation with this technique is it really only turns genes on or off.

it may alter genetic code for a protein that inhibits another gene for an improtant protein in the pathway for mescaline lets say.

therefore no more of the first protein means more mescaline. (hope thats clear - ask me to explain if its not)

other limitation is its random so a lot of sorting required. better to ID the genes and tweak em.

also here is a handy piece of information - when greenpeace found out that this radiation technique was used (this happened when GM started coming out i think and they realised the could generate a lot of support and money from exploiting the cause) they tried to start action against these radioactively transformed crops. then they found out they would effectively be banning every crop that we have :D

ahhh greenpeace - what a bunch of attention seeking, misdirected, hippy exploiting wankers. they have the odd good idea and sometimes pursue worthy causes but really they are a joke. perhaps that should be another topic though.

[Rev]

 

quote:

---

Or it could even be a remnant process now irrelevant over time and not 'in use' but inherited from ancestors

---

yes very much.

many of the active species inhabit areas of high stability over geologic time - like phlebo on granit outcrops - and many are relict species many millions of years old and restricted

I wonder what happenned back then - when both the DMT acacias and the protohumans first appeared

 

quote:

---

(which is why some species of fungi produces differring levels of (unwanted) strychnine and cyanide, dependant on the media in which it propagates.

---

no no- no strichynine in shrooms - no strichynine outside the genus strychnos

never heard of published reports of cyanide either

 

quote:

---

quote:now we just need to find out how to increase yeilds in our friends.

 

well if you got a lot of time selective breeding has worked for a long time.

 

if you are in a rush however comparing dna profiles and modifying genes seems the go. microarrays will feature heavily in further

---

selective breeding can prob turn good results in short order.

there are already very good clones out there

like the ones that turned up 2% by dry weight in published studies

all that needs to be done is to accumulate these good phenotypes into single collections and establish pollen swaps on a global level then start x pollination

seedling grafting can speed up the process of seed raising and then these can be assayed and only the best carried on to become breeding stock

I think we could get good results at F1 and in a lifetime who knows we might be at f5 or f6

faster if early flowering is bred into the lines.

whats the upperlimit going to be anyway , 3%, 5%?

after that youd be looking at vigour and disease resistance

if u had a shit hot clone then micropropagation in vitro could commercialise it globally in a few years.

[teonanacatl]

yeah selective breeding would work but time constraints would be a problem. and there wouldnt be a lot of change from generation to generation. also there would be weak and strong types forever growing from the seeds as according to mendelian genetics.

i was thinking more along the lines of growing conditions which would affect mesc content as its easyer in theory to test. propergate plants in tc using the areoles of a mother plant, then select say 100 of the most uniform growth and grow them on for a period of time all under the same conditions then repot them into soils with different pH's and keep in same conditions for another period of time then test each sample for its mecs content, this will give an idea of basic macro nutrient requirment which can then be further tested, as can light intensity and hours of light. the mesc would be produced in equilibrium so we just work out how to push to the right. even just growing in tc with different concentrations of nutrients would be worth testing. darklight got any clues to required nutrients and ratios?? even with the acacias???

[delysid]

no strychnine in shrooms .. got it .. my mistake.

then whats the muscle cramping, blood vessels collapsing feeling, tight, nasty uncomforatbale feeling overall? it seemed to have a strong reaction with muscles too, not atrophy like, more spasmic.. i get this concurrent with the psychedelic effect.. ??

(p.sub, pine needle medium, >200 wet grams, boiled.) I understand strychnine poisoning becomes lethal near the 15mg/kg dose . . which is tiny in comparison to overall dose used here ..

I had likened it only to HBW poisoning, smililar uncomfortable blood/pressure related feelings. (A.nervosa, 10-15 seeds, pre-flamed)

*twitch increases* :confused:

[ 28. February 2005, 07:18: Message edited by: delysid ]

[Rev]

My Pet theory for years has been that Psilocybin/psilocin are acting as serotonin mimics as they affect some of the same receptors

In particular i guess psilocybin is more at work

serotonin as well as a neurotransmitter also functions in blood clotting wity platelets and more importantly as a smooth muscle contractor

I dont think the psilos are doing much to the blood as i think thats another class of aunaffceted serotonin receptors bt the gut is highly innervated and full of smooth muscle

so the theory goes that the psilocybin causes the cramps in the gut as it crosses over. and thes subside it moves on via absorption and dephosphorylation to psilocin in the blood

which also gives some effects depending on the individual sensitivites

Its just a theory and i cat prove it but ive thought it for years and havent found any obvious error to make me question it is a plausible and likley mechanism

it doesnt explain everything but it goes a way towards it

[Rev]

teonanacatl:

yeah selective breeding would work but time constraints would be a problem. and there wouldnt be a lot of change from generation to generation. also there would be weak and strong types forever growing from the seeds as according to mendelian genetics.

i was thinking more along the lines of growing conditions which would affect mesc content as its easyer in theory to test.

It sounds expensive and a lot of hard work.

not that its not worth doing but i question the ability to translate findings to the field

I think that on a lower budget using clones that a lot of info can be gleaned using more simple expts.

for instance the questions id like to see answered are;

at what age is the peak conc.(ie new season growth, 2nd year, 3rd year, etc)

whats in the roots?

at what part of the season is peak conc.

what does the application of varying rates of NPK fert have an effct on conc.

do trace elemnet additions have a significant effct on conc.

do they perform better under 0% or 30% shade

what happens to the conc over periods of extended dormancy/chilling

is there a qualitative shift during the season due to changes in minor contituents

Can N forcing boost final conc.

what post harvets strategies lead to the best increase or conservation of properties.

re the increases with hybridisation

i dont know if either of us can say it will be a slow process with any authority.

we dont know if the enymes for mesq synth are dominat or recessive. Im not sure of the pathway

for example it could be that a plant with very high tyramine levels if x'd with a mesc plant could have an increased or non existent biosynth

TLC comparisons of hybrid offspring might shed some light by chemotyping % of offspring

T pachanoi can be found in a range thats usual of 0.1 to 2.0% (and there are inactive types and most likely even stronger ones)

(my books elsewhere please correct my figures if wrong)

If a median figure could be achieved of even 1% that would be a milestone in itself and not unachievable.

once seedstock could be had from hybrids or parents with not less than 1% then one could entertain other experimnets like changing the ploidy or the use of chemical or radio mutagens if one had access to such facilities.

these techniques have been employed in the past with success in breeding higher alkaloid variants

and its old tek - uses facilities that are not in such high demand or scrutiny as newer GE technology

[ 28. February 2005, 21:18: Message edited by: Rev ]

[Fractalhead]

You can learn much about the reasons for secondary metabolite accumulation by studying the way in which their biosynthetic pathways are regulated. For instance, some plant cells have pathogen-specific receptors that start signal transduction pathways leading to the up/down regulation of secondary metabolic genes. If your plant cell has sophisticated regulatory mechanisms that link pathogens with secondary metabolites, this is a good indication those secondary metabolites are involved in defense.

Alernatively, you might find that some metabolites don't respond to any known pathogen derived elicitors but rather respond to changes in day/night cycle or be regulated in coordination with flower development. This might indicate they are involved in pollination vector attraction or something like that.

[teonanacatl]

thats good info fractal :D will search about it.

 

quote:

---

at what age is the peak conc.(ie new season growth, 2nd year, 3rd year, etc)

 

whats in the roots?

 

at what part of the season is peak conc.

 

what does the application of varying rates of NPK fert have an effct on conc.

 

do trace elemnet additions have a significant effct on conc.

 

do they perform better under 0% or 30% shade

 

what happens to the conc over periods of extended dormancy/chilling

 

is there a qualitative shift during the season due to changes in minor contituents

 

Can N forcing boost final conc.

 

what post harvets strategies lead to the best increase or conservation of properties.

---

thats what growing insame soil but different pH would tell us, as all nutrients would be in same amounts except maybe calcium so therefore the pH would regulate the plants ability to use each nutrient, as pH >14 calcium becomes more readily available so if mesc concentration was higher at pH 12 then at pH 6 we could compare the nutrients available and then try specifically increasing their amounts. it just gives some research on where to start.

now i know i was quick to pass off mesc as being used to deter bugs but stress could push the equilibrium to the right making more mesc. as far as i know most biological functions run on a negative feed back system so when there isnt enough nutrients to produce more mesc then the reaction equilibrium would go to the left.

and it would seem that mesc isnt required for pachanoi to grow as some have none.