PTorch or Pedro?

[Thirdeyevision]

First of all, I am new here but not at all new to the coumunity or our entho alies. I have read through your forum and love what you guys stand for and am excited to be a part of it. So on to my question...

A neighbor of mine has a ton of San Pedro and Torch that has overgrown his yard so he had his gardener cut a bunch down and pile it up. He wasn't sure which was which because he got the cuttings about 10 years.

Anyway. Does this look like a torch or pedro? It has the single long thorn along with the shorter few out of each areloa so I'm leaning towards torch. Any opinions?

[Trichoserious]

/me opines

Looks like a hybrid if either. More likely a different trich....

[Pacha]

It is peruvianoid for sure, but like my predecessor mentioned a possible hybrid which has definite peruvi characteristics.

[Chiral]

hmmm nice plant, will exhibit more true characteristics when growing in ideal conditions again, looks a bit nitro starved, has those nice little Peruvian knotches above the areoles, also looks a little like a kk339.

[M S Smith]

I'd just say it was one of the many variable forms of T. pachanoi as a cultivar. It certainly looks like T. peruvianus, but T. peruvianus, as coming from central Peru and having clear wild populations, is definitely more consistent in characteristics, particularly in being quite glaucus (having a blue frosting). Your plant has the typical green sheen of the T. pachanoi of Peru, but this is not to say that it might not have a close relation with T. peruvianus, in fact I lean towards thinking the wild populations of T. peruvianus are the source of the T. pachanoi cultivar and therefore bear many similar characteristics. Just my opinion...nothing more.

~Michael~

[mr b.caapi]

I'd just say it was one of the many variable forms of T. pachanoi as a cultivar. It certainly looks like T. peruvianus, but T. peruvianus, as coming from central Peru and having clear wild populations, is definitely more consistent in characteristics, particularly in being quite glaucus (having a blue frosting). Your plant has the typical green sheen of the T. pachanoi of Peru, but this is not to say that it might not have a close relation with T. peruvianus, in fact I lean towards thinking the wild populations of T. peruvianus are the source of the T. pachanoi cultivar and therefore bear many similar characteristics. Just my opinion...nothing more.

~Michael~

 

So does the blue frosting occur more in the peruvanoids Michael?

The reason i ask is that i have a so called Pach growing but it has very heavy blue frosting, something my other Pachs dont have.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Mr B.caapi

[M S Smith]

As far as I can tell T. peruvianus has as a hallmark a rather prevalent frosting...and it must be noted that I have seen photos of natural stands of T. peruvianus in Peru that have even rather short spines for the species. You probably have it already, but if not have a look at some of the plants in this torrent.

http://isohunt.com/torrents/trichocereus+of+south+america

I'll seed both for a bit, but certainly grab the more recent of the two as it seems to have more seeds and I think even downloads quicker regardless.

In addition, I'm also of the opinion that many of the plants referred to as both T. peruvianus and T. macrogonus could be seen as intermediaries of proper T. peruvianus and the more spineless T. pachanoi.

I'd love to see a photo of your plant for sure.

~Michael~

[mr b.caapi]

Excellent. D/L now.

Ill post some pics up later today.

[Thirdeyevision]

Sounds like a split decision ;)

my neighbor had the T. pachanoi and the T. peruvianus all taking over his yard for many years so it could be a hybrid by now. The long spines made me believe it was T. peruvianus because from my experiance the T. Pachanoi had very small spines (am I incorect). Well, I'll post some pictures of some of the other cuttings to see if their all hybrids by now. Thank you all for great advice. I have searched for a competant sacred cacti comunity and I think I found it.

ThirdEyeVision

[Pacha]

I am starting to think each clone is a specie of its own, none look the same yet they carry some traits from both pach n peruvi, are they all the same or are they all different? Each discussion is creating more and more confusion...

[M S Smith]

T. peruvianus and T. pachanoi are clearly the same species, but just variations of it, and so you will have everything from the feral plants of Matucana and central Peru to some of the nearly spineless plants in Quito or Cuenca Ecuador. Like I've said before, whether you call it T. peruvianus or T. pachanoi is sort of up to you, but if it doesn't closely fit the wild plants of central Peru then I'm personally inclined to view it as a cultivar, with that cultivars name being T. pachanoi. So in the end I lean towards considering a great deal of plants as T. pachanoi if not matching quite good enough the T. peruvianus of central Peru, and this regardless of there being longer spined T. pachanoi.

~Michael~

[weedRampage]

T. peruvianus and T. pachanoi are clearly the same species, but just variations of it, and so you will have everything from the feral plants of Matucana and central Peru to some of the nearly spineless plants in Quito or Cuenca Ecuador. Like I've said before, whether you call it T. peruvianus or T. pachanoi is sort of up to you, but if it doesn't closely fit the wild plants of central Peru then I'm personally inclined to view it as a cultivar, with that cultivars name being T. pachanoi. So in the end I lean towards considering a great deal of plants as T. pachanoi if not matching quite good enough the T. peruvianus of central Peru, and this regardless of there being longer spined T. pachanoi.

~Michael~

 

Plant taxonomy consists of "lumping" and "splitting".

You could easily lump a large group of trichs as one variable species.

The potential for splitting is ridiculously huge given the hundreds of cultivars.

I would lump bridg, pach, peruv and scop as one species but I wasn't very

enthusiastic about the echinopsis lump.

Many of these plants cross but readily throw true to type when re-crossed.

So....

I have got a bridge clone that is obviously a peruv cross or is it a cuzco cross

Mantis

[Chiral]

Cactus identification is just like electronic music genres...they all basically have the same characteristics (electronic sounds) but all have their own little subtleties that differentiate each from the other.

Now that's science...

[Slybacon]

Cactus identification is just like electronic music genres...they all basically have the same characteristics (electronic sounds) but all have their own little subtleties that differentiate each from the other.

Now that's science...

 

ANd some will blend together nicely and others will sound like a wet fart when mixed.