A Shaman's View of Skizophrenia

[Sparkster]

Whooaaa....

How the worm has turned... I wasn't even serious either. Maybe VM can have a dollar for everytime I've been missunderstood!

I doubt it's your fault, I tend to have that effect on people I guess!

Yes you do, why is that?!?!

Why do I bother?

[chilli]

Whooaaa....

How the worm has turned... I wasn't even serious either. Maybe VM can have a dollar for everytime I've been missunderstood!

Yes you do, why is that?!?!

Why do I bother?

Oh don't be such a drama queen, I'm not being particularly serious ether... although like you I don't appreciate people twisting my words, or just making things up to prop up their egos.

Your clumsy psychoanalysis is unnecessary because the whole reason I said "I have that affect on people" is to suggest that it has something to do with me... don't you even get the jokes where I am taking piss out of myself?

I don't know why you bother either, but one possibility that occurs to me is that you have a deep and abiding love for me that you can't control.

Keep your eye on the smileys, they will make the pain go away...

[ThunderIdeal]

the whole problem with a spiritual explanation of schizophrenia is that it offers no testable hypotheses. a scientific explanation is testable. schizophrenia is about 80% heritable. why would you bother explaining it in terms of a psychospiritual crisis, if it can be understood in biological terms? can the author cite a "spiritual treatment" whose efficacy is greater than placebo?

that comment is more than fair. the author writes as though with dilligence, her treatments have been quite effective. if i had the book i could write a short list of her "do's and don'ts" for helping schizophrenics, but her treatment seems to come down to dilligent care, grounding/purifying meditations, and basically getting them to lead a more healthy lifestyle without really trying to iron out the quirks (since she believes they aren't like normal "hard-headed" people to begin with). it's not really a spiritual treatment, it's probably what any unassuming therapist would do if they were given sufficient time, there are slight differences because it's coming from a different perspective of what is wrong. she accuses the mental health system of giving schizophrenics insufficient care and attention. she says that drugs seem to be okay for some but they end up low on energy, and that if they decide to go cold turkey then readjusting can prove very challenging if not fatal.

overall her message is that these people need more care.

[Amulte]

wow im glad i finally got round to reading this thread, been busy and catching up on things of late...

1st it sound be pointed out theres 5 subtypes of schizoprenia with another 2 subtype-classes...

tho its acition is primarily dopergenic in its brain mechanisms it can still involve spiritual experience, where as spiritual experience is believes to be caused by the 5HT2a/c recpetors it still occours outside these regions of the brain. when it comes down to it people with schizoprenia, BPD or TLE can often be mis diagnosed, and for all we accually know could be alot more in tune with the cosmos then the rest of us.

as to weather the people afflicted with mentioned aliments are more in tune its hard to hypothesis unless one breaks it down just a very little.... but its a hard argument to make... but still cannot be dissmissed in its entierety as somone said earlier no-one has yet "defined the human soul" yet, not is it tangable. so can we really understand it? perchance they are more intune so to speak....

In the case of schizoprenia its hard to say as its often mis diagnosed with BPD and visa versa. with majority of case of BPD involving the 5HT recpetor sites then it remains a possibility. the shamans substances primarily work on the 5HT receptors unless one looks at peyote use in the native american cultures which work on a different class of receptor site...

In reguards to TLE which is renoud for its spiritual experience effects i hear (unless im thinking of FLE which may be the same thing... cant recall atm) it effects a different section of the brain yet still hold the spiritual experience. during the siezure they are said to experience menevolent forces and such, beings and such, recalling spiritual encounters...

that in mind we cannot rule it strictly to the 5HT receptors tho they do obviously play a part....but im rambling...

all im saying is that i find it entierly possible that what the book states is slightly correct in atleast a few cases, not just schizoprenia but also BPD and perchance TLE. we cannot disect the 'soul' or whatever one chooses to call it, yet some believe it exist. i think many would agree in our experiences we have found the 'soul' to exist yet its indefinable in our capability of understand so we are yet to be able to define it within terms exisiting in common use.

its all up in the air, nothing can be truely defined or carved into stone in this matter as we are far from being able to fully comprehend the abilities of the human mind let alone the brain itself and its receptor sites we are not alloud to use within law....

was that all rant or have i said somthing there?

[Amulte]

forgot to mention...

in reguards to the shaman healing the persin suffering schizoprenia, was it ayahuasca that was used?

there has even been a case i heard of recently of a patient suffering dyslexia that after sessions with a shaman and ayahuasca was apparently "cured" of his disorder...when i spoke with dennis mckenna at ega he gave example of this very fact, so it is all possible... yet so unexlainable and indefinable its impossible to totally explain...

[ThunderIdeal]

wtf, shouldn't i have posted this in spirituality and philosophy?

rant or not i liked your post.

i don't want to play science vs spirit. i think your post helps to bridge the gap a little bit.

there's no mention of any plant-healing, either because there was none or because it's illegal. she only says that pharms and street drugs don't really help the situation, except where the pharms can put a lid on things.

[Amulte]

...... that pharms and street drugs don't really help the situation, except where the pharms can put a lid on things.

i can only agree with this statement, the amount of help/aide the plants we use in contrast to the pharmas is slim to none... for example the plants/cacti/mushrooms help more than the pharmas... the pharmas really suppress things rather than exposing one to them, and are no real help in the long run.... IME at least...

still im glad you liked/appreciated my post ThunderIdeal... ive been meaning to get my PC fixed so i can accualy begin writing again, D.McKenna has been interested in my research into this matter somwhat so ive been meaning to complete a paper (which will be published here 1st when i get to it). dont want to bother him further till i complete my paper... but still i do rant...

hopfully DM will find motivation to join us in conversation... he would have an interesting contribution to this im sure...

it doesnt matter where its posted, will still end up on same topic... spirit v. science.... in another world we might consider the 'mentally ill' as the shamans and mystics of our time, also one must keep in mind the now geniuses of the past were considered mad-men by society as a whole... so really we are at a brick wall untill we discect spirit. i belive we have in DMT but cannot yet see it...

but i again rant about thing's i shouldnt

what is the title of the book may i ask? and authour?

[mu!]

Using psychedelics to expose yourself to subconscious/hidden problems is all well and good, only when you have the proper framework ready to deal with said problems.

Having all these hidden problems come smack you in the face, ala psychedelics style, can do more harm than good

[Legba]

Using psychedelics to expose yourself to subconscious/hidden problems is all well and good, only when you have the proper framework ready to deal with said problems.

Having all these hidden problems come smack you in the face, ala psychedelics style, can do more harm than good

Excellent point mu. This can't be emphasized enough. Think 'Pandora's Box'. The hidden problems may have been developing for years, decades even, so there is no quick fix. It can really hurt to see how much you've been fooling yourself and without the framework, the preparation to handle the pain it can turn very negative and become a much bigger problem to deal with; insurmountable in most cases.

[chilli]

"pharms and street drugs don't really help the situation, except where the pharms can put a lid on things."

i can only agree with this statement, the amount of help/aide the plants we use in contrast to the pharmas is slim to none... for example the plants/cacti/mushrooms help more than the pharmas

Amulte, are you saying pharms don't really help people with schizophrenia, and that plants/cacti/mushrooms do? I'm genuinely not sure if I've missed something here...

[AndyAmine.]

I have to agree with that point Mu.,

In my personal experience, one should only be dealing with alternative-realities and hidden-problems using psychedelics when one can satisfactorily deal with their current realities and problems without them.

Otherwise it can just be too much to handle for an already fragile mind/soul, or as Bacc says, opening Pandora's box.

Unfortunately I had to learn this the hard way.

As I say, this is from personal experience of myself and friends, however no doubt there are situation where it could be helpful but these are far and few between and need the correct pre/post guidance and preparation.

[The Dude]

In my personal experience, one should only be dealing with alternative-realities and hidden-problems using psychedelics when one can satisfactorily deal with their current realities and problems without them.

I disagree. One must have a strong enough sense of identity, to be able to rebuild it after an ego execution, and they must be strong enough to take onboard the message as constructive criticism of the fuckups in their life, not as a 'just kill yourself' message, as it could be misinterpreted.

How can one deal with their current realities and problems without being fully exposed to them? that is the virtue of psychedelics that they uncover hidden processes at work, and are in many cases the FIRST steps to recovery. I know often times I would hold off going too deep because I've been unsatisfied with the direction of my life and I'm sure I'll be told about it much more dramatically with the aid of entheogens.

At the same time, I've found in my synchro-mystic model of reality that they choose when to take them anyway, and as harsh as psychedelic burnout or drug induced psychosis sounds, that too was meant to be, sometimes the harshest learning processes are the only ones that work and ram the message home. For instance it's only the inevitable death of the planet as is now Observable with crazy weather events that's got the mainstream to finally wise up (hopefully). Drastic times call for drastic measures and we can't be too worried about modifying the delicate balance of the human mind, it's obviously out of balance anyway as reflected by our misuse of this planet.

Psychedelic induced Psychosis is always a possibility, I believe that is why some people are naturally attracted to these drugs (everyone can be attracted to weed or meth, but not even many 'druggies' are keen to try mushrooms twice) and most people are Naturally weary, there could be a subconscious defence mechanism going on, I guess some people just ignore this and end up psychotic.

Schizophrenics, although more intimately connected with 'imaginary realities' ie: the higher order of creation that is made manifest physically, without a strong sense of self and of security, these imaginary creations, when paranoia fueled, show the victim an inevitability of suffering, as that's all they can possibly draw in with such a frame of mind, and no doubt, to them all the dots connect to make this the only possible truth. Loosening the boundaries of real/imaginary and witnessing just where the transformation takes place is .. the essence of magic i guess, affecting change. However when the floodgates are opened it is important to be very selective of which aspects of the psyche we listen to.

We all perform 'impossible' magical feats everyday, if we were to become aware of them. The interconnection of mind is daunting at first and could well create a paranoid reality. I have experienced acid induced craziness that I would consider VERY close to a paranoid schizophrenic experience. Reality seems far less interconnected than during peak experiences, however I still take it to be infinitely synchronous, i am just left unaware of most of it, however I note down synchs and 'odd' occurences, and they happen with enough frequency for me to believe. The more I believe the more often they happen and this creates a feedback loop.

What if I were more socially anxious and projected paranoid vibes, would the synchs I see only validate my paranoid reality? This too would feed on itself and the severity would increase and without the specific brain chemistry 'disorder' I would demonstrate the behaviour of a paranoid schizophrenic, which leads me to the question, is schizophrenia nothing more than an 'open mind' prone to paranoid assumptions, accelerated too much on its negative enforcement feedback loop to take some steps back.. back into the light as it were.

Although Psychedelics are a harsh teacher, I find that after sorting through all the mess and all the trauma of ones life experience it also leaves open a door of amazing possibility and optimism, and above all a very real sensation of pure love from the plant gods or the oversoul or Nirvana/Samandi/ego-death etc, etc... The emotional re-boot is most important, because our ability to order and structure a reality means nothing if its based on negative assumptions.

The schizophrenic or Mystic methodolgy of reality-ordering is totally twisted and based on feelings/emotions, that is not to say its any more fake, fringe experience is crucial to understanding the totality of our experience and exploring the usually unseen frontiers of consciousness.

We all create our reality, schizophrenics may see this more directly than most, however they are caught up in an emotional loop and lack the ability to stand back and reflect on their own mind, become aware of their awareness, have one of those zen moments, where time stands still and the mind is reset. I do not see why high dose psychedelics could not 'cure' schizophrenia. When I say cure I mean cure the emotional state which brings in all the crap. The doors of perception will still be blasted open however.

[just some thoughts, i got NFI really]

[chilli]

El D, how many Schizophrenics have you known... personally I mean... basically either a friend, family member or patient?

From your comments I would guess zero?

[The Dude]

El D, how many Schizophrenics have you known... personally I mean... basically either a friend, family member or patient?

From your comments I would guess zero?

Correctomondo! hence No Fucking Idea

actually I do know one schizophrenic, family friend couldn't say I know him personally. My knowledge of Schizophrenia comes from "A Beautiful Mind" and my own acid induced paranoid psychotic type behavior.

Granted I know SFA, how do my comments reflect this? I mean what are my obvious mistakes here?

I'm gonna re-read it and see if it's obvious I've made a tool of myself.

Yeah I have no idea IB, please enlighten me.

[edity.. more thoughts]

I'm assuming it is almost like a waking dream, where subconscious thoughts are more highly activated and as in dreams our emotions dictate what we see, however it is not a lucid state because it's all out of control. Hence "they're all after me" OR "I am jesus" depends on the emotional stability of the individual.. actually both those options seem 'unstable'.

I can also relate to the whole 'listening to secret messages in the media' thing that I hear goes on, as many a time I've had 'messages' transmited synchronistically in such a way and can see the over-connecting and over-assumption of things as a type of psychotic behaviour. At the same time I think that everything is synchronous, maybe reading too much into everything is the disease, it is not a delusion but it is a debilitating behavior. All I can go on is personal experiences of 'flipping out', and acting psychotic. - but ultimately becoming aware of my thoughts.

I think that like 'idiot savants' that indiscriminately record to memory their direct perception and hence are incapable of higher brain faculties maybe schizophrenics suffer from a kind of 'spiritual-savant-ism' where 'imaginary' or 'spiritual' information is all seen at once with no filtration.

Savants have a direct experience with no discrimination of value, all is taken in.

Schizophrenics may have a mystical or spiritual experience with no discrimination of which 'spirits' take a hold. Spirits I could think of as Archetypes of the Psyche.. emotional states that take a hold, really i have a limited knowledge of Schizophrenia, from both the Scientific and Spiritual perspectives. I always like to chime in though.

NFI means no fucking idea, all pure speculation. I like to let my ideas develop as I type them out, without the burden of pre-assumed information on what schizophrenia is, i heard its just a lumping of a whole bunch of symptoms with no real definition of the condition as such.

It's good to hear agreement / disagreement, but attacking my apparent lack of schizophrenic affiliation and therefore knowledge on the subject is a bit of a null-argument, people discuss and speculate on all manner of things they have no personal connection to, the only connection i have are my psychotic-ish experiences. That doesn't matter though, I just wish you'd chime in with some kind of enlightening information about the apparent faults in my speculations, instead of merely voicing your doubt of my personal experiences with schizophrenics. I'm not claiming to be a doc here.. nor a shaman healer guy, just giving my personal reflections.

Edited January 15, 2008 by El Duderino

[chilli]

Granted I know SFA, how do my comments reflect this? I mean what are my obvious mistakes here?

I'm gonna re-read it and see if it's obvious I've made a tool of myself.

Yeah I have no idea IB, please enlighten me.

Well, maybe I am psychic or it was just a lucky guess.

Don't worry, I wasn't "attacking" you, and if your comments had been phrased in such a way to appear as "mere speculation," I probably wouldn't have said anything, but you did seem to be making some fairly silly statements for someone who's knowledge of schizophrenia primarily comes from Hollywood... but hey, knock yourself out.

[The Dude]

Don't worry, I wasn't "attacking" you

I guess I just demonstrated a prime example of paranoid schizoidal type of behaviour, the only real knowledge I have of the subject is personal delusions, and hollywood moments that reflect that, surely it is based on some element of truth, much like mafia movies i place some degree of trust in them.. much more than wartime propaganda pieces. .. mm tangent

Point is I am not here to defend myself or my degree of knowledge on the matter if there is anything constructive you could add it is a proper argument against my assumptions, not me.

Edited January 17, 2008 by El Duderino

[ThunderIdeal]

i hope i'm not licking too much el ass here but i REALLY appreciated your contribution.

[The Dude]

Don't worry, I wasn't "attacking" you

Questioning my 'credentials' is a roundabout indirect attack on my claims by suggesting they have no merit. It has nothing to do with the actual discussion though. They have a proper term for it, when in a discussion you cannot counter an argument, so you attack your opponents cred. Some argumentative fallacy thing...

Typical politics where instead of discussing the issues its all about what dirt they can dig up.

and if your comments had been phrased in such a way to appear as "mere speculation," I probably wouldn't have said anything

WTF could THIS mean?...

[just some thoughts, i got NFI really]

but you did seem to be making some fairly silly statements for someone who's knowledge of schizophrenia primarily comes from Hollywood... but hey, knock yourself out.

LOL it took me a while to find that gem, are you suggesting that somebody that gets their information primarily from Hollywood should not be making silly statements?

Anyway... I also seen the movie Pi.. where this maths genius somehow unlocks the secret code of the universe god and all that, and it seems to be linked with some from of insanity. 12 Monkeys the time traveller seems a bit emotionally unstable and maybe psychotic, maybe he is seeing a larger reality than anyone could comprehend?

I think that it is a matter of the stability of mental schemas. If the structure has been obliterated who do you trust to rebuild it? If your faith in consensus reality and what 'they' say is no longer there, and you do not trust yourself either, it is a scary situation I imagine.

i hope i'm not licking too much el ass here but i REALLY appreciated your contribution.

there ya go dude

Appreciate the appreciation really!

we should have an appreciation appreciation thread!

[chilli]

Questioning my 'credentials' is a roundabout indirect attack on my claims by suggesting they have no merit. It has nothing to do with the actual discussion though. They have a proper term for it, when in a discussion you cannot counter an argument, so you attack your opponents cred. Some argumentative fallacy thing...

Typical politics where instead of discussing the issues its all about what dirt they can dig up.

Yep, you got me... I am actually a politician, and I couldn't figure out a counter argument so I just had a go at you instead. Anyway, didn't you already answer this?

*edit* But what do you mean people's 'credentials' have nothing to do with the discussion? If someone pontificates a lot about a topic, it greatly helps others to listen or care if that person has knowledge of the subject... sure, we can all sit around speculating and saying what we think things are really like, and that might have it's place, but with a subject like this it's really just muddying the waters. So pointing it out is actually helping the discussion, so I win... what is my prize? Boobies?

LOL it took me a while to find that gem, are you suggesting that somebody that gets their information primarily from Hollywood should not be making silly statements?

It shouldn't have been too difficult to find, it's not like you had to wade through reams of repetitive text... let me rephrase: I think it's silly to say things like "I do not see why high dose psychedelics could not 'cure' schizophrenia," in light of the fact that you have no real knowledge about the disease.

Sorry I haven't contributed much of my own to this and other threads, just can't be bothered writing much lately.

Edited January 23, 2008 by IllegalBrain

[chilli]

Questioning my 'credentials' is a roundabout indirect attack on my claims by suggesting they have no merit. It has nothing to do with the actual discussion though. They have a proper term for it, when in a discussion you cannot counter an argument, so you attack your opponents cred. Some argumentative fallacy thing...

Typical politics where instead of discussing the issues its all about what dirt they can dig up.

Yep, you got me... I am actually a politician, and I couldn't figure out a counter argument so I just had a go at you instead. Anyway, didn't you already answer this?

LOL it took me a while to find that gem, are you suggesting that somebody that gets their information primarily from Hollywood should not be making silly statements?

It shouldn't have been too difficult to find, it's not like you had to wade through reams of repetitive text... let me rephrase, it's silly to say things like "I do not see why high dose psychedelics could not 'cure' schizophrenia," in light of the fact that you have no real knowledge about the disease.

Sorry I haven't contributed much of my own to this and other threads, just can't be bothered formulating my thoughts much lately.

[chilli]

Questioning my 'credentials' is a roundabout indirect attack on my claims by suggesting they have no merit. It has nothing to do with the actual discussion though. They have a proper term for it, when in a discussion you cannot counter an argument, so you attack your opponents cred. Some argumentative fallacy thing...

Typical politics where instead of discussing the issues its all about what dirt they can dig up.

Yep, you got me... I am actually a politician, and I couldn't figure out a counter argument so I just had a go at you instead. Anyway, didn't you already answer this?

*edit* besides, I think it is very relevant to the discussion... sometimes it's appropriate to speculate and talk out of our arses, but with a subject like this I think it's really just muddying the waters.

LOL it took me a while to find that gem, are you suggesting that somebody that gets their information primarily from Hollywood should not be making silly statements?

It shouldn't have been too difficult to find, it's not like you had to wade through reams of repetitive text... let me rephrase, it's silly to say things like "I do not see why high dose psychedelics could not 'cure' schizophrenia," in light of the fact that you have no real knowledge about the disease.

Sorry I haven't contributed much of my own to this and other threads, just can't be bothered formulating my thoughts much lately.

[chilli]

Questioning my 'credentials' is a roundabout indirect attack on my claims by suggesting they have no merit. It has nothing to do with the actual discussion though. They have a proper term for it, when in a discussion you cannot counter an argument, so you attack your opponents cred. Some argumentative fallacy thing...

Typical politics where instead of discussing the issues its all about what dirt they can dig up.

Yep, you got me... I am actually a politician, and I couldn't figure out a counter argument so I just had a go at you instead. Anyway, didn't you already answer this?

*edit* besides, I think it is very relevant to the discussion... sometimes it's appropriate to speculate and talk out of our arses, but with a subject like this I think it's really just muddying the waters even further.

LOL it took me a while to find that gem, are you suggesting that somebody that gets their information primarily from Hollywood should not be making silly statements?

It shouldn't have been too difficult to find, it's not like you had to wade through reams of repetitive text... let me rephrase, it's silly to say things like "I do not see why high dose psychedelics could not 'cure' schizophrenia," in light of the fact that you have no real knowledge about the disease.

Sorry I haven't contributed much of my own to this and other threads, just can't be bothered formulating my thoughts much lately.

[ThunderIdeal]

ok ok we heard you the third time!

if you can find the energy to post on the topic i think we'd all like that, it seems as though you have some direct experience.

[chilli]

ok ok we heard you the third time!

if you can find the energy to post on the topic i think we'd all like that, it seems as though you have some direct experience.

Do you think I give a flying toss what you or anyone else would like me to do?

If you're going to get all school-maamy on my ass, why don't you take your cane to The Dude's butt?

He is disruptive in class and also likes a bit of punishment.

Maybe you could make him write lines, you know where you just write the same thing on the board over and over again... oh wait he is already doing that.

[ThunderIdeal]

wtf man i joked about your quadruple post and i'm getting school maamy?

FYI i don't care about any of these squabbles. i can express a few of my thoughts without making a fight out of it. even if i had the time, i'd spend it on something more worthy.

your posts show you to be very intelligent but i am slowly beginning to think that stirring up shit is the main reason you come here. some others may be guilty of that too but you seem to be in the center of it. i'd like to interpret this differently, but how? your views are so provocative that people start fights with you every few days?

"sometimes it's appropriate to speculate and talk out of our arses, but with a subject like this I think it's really just muddying the waters even further."

how is it? it's not stated as fact. speculation can't muddy waters, and in the absence of your informed view it's all we can talk about.

come on man, if you're going to deny outright that somebodies perspective has any bearing on a matter you can at least "be bothered" formulating a few of your thoughts.

i have spoken with a diagnosed skizophrenic many times, he always seemed like a normal person.

doesn't help us much.

anyway.. i neglected to answer amulte.

the book:

the bridge between two worlds

a shaman's view of skizophrenia & acute sensitivity

by odette nightsky