The truth about Bowling for Columbine

[apothecary]

Wow, you're actually using "won't somebody please think of the children" as your argument now?

So we NEED Mr Moore to lie to our youngsters so they won't grow up believing other lies?

Ahuh.

[chilli]

IME Shiva, the 'unreasonable' people are the ones most likely to rejoice at the discrepancies in Moore's film because it makes them feel exactly that they don't need to question the dominant belief system, or their 'sides' version of truth.

Edited June 7, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[The Dude]

I guess if everyone knew THE TRUTH all the time, then everyone would act out of Pure generosity to every other aspect of self as giving IS receiving and helping others IS helping yourself and its a self compounding accelerating function of pure goodness and shit. Bliss becomes boring i suppose and can only last so long as only change is permanent, so god gets bored and DECIDES to forget, just like forgetting is not a slow blurring of a memory but a direct erasing action of chemicals on neurons.

hmm anyway my point is, ultimate truth is everything/nothing and formlessness/(ultimate form of forms). Reality Creation is the process of distorting Everything into seperate Things (ie: duality) ie: distorted perspectives and LYING to your very own self as you can never Really see. So everything is inherintly a lie, that is why the dark is necessary to create a reality, but balance is required, I suppose it comes down to this, the dark side of the force is responsible for material existance and also material fixation and egoic desire of possessions, ie: greed and conservative politics with the interests of knowledge occlusion which results in population 'dumbeining'

The Light side is the force of truth and unveiling, uncovering lies, secrets and connections that are hidden. When the method of uncovering is by covering it is no longer illuminating. if the method of truth telling is lying, then this worker of the light is severley misguided, no matter his intentions. It is directly counterproductive to the cause, which ultimately is awareness of truth. Not emotional steering of populations.

Static data has no impact in shifting public momentum, an object in motion tends to remain in motion unless a force acts upon it. If the mainstream is only responsive to emotive triggers, and raw facts do not trigger this themselves, then the author of propaganda embelishes his truth and alters facts in an emotional manner to enact a force on this object already in motion. BUT the force acting upon it is OF the dark side and works only to further the cause of occlusion and lies.

Edited June 7, 2007 by El Duderino

[No_One]

Wow, you're actually using "won't somebody please think of the children" as your argument now?

Damn Straight!, My mind also thinks:

- The Earth's flat

- The Earth's the centre of the Universe

- Santa, The Easter Bunny and The Boogeyman are real

It also thinks demeaning someones character through the use of socially accepted cliche's is a good way to make it feel better again after that someone has has said something that has made it feel inadequate.

So we NEED Mr Moore to lie to our youngsters so they won't grow up believing other lies?

No, we don't NEED Mr Moore lying to the youngsters, but by the same token we don't need Picasso, Lennon, Mozart, Da Vinci, Michalengelo, etc. lying to them either.

What the fuck would those guys know hey!

You're aware of things that I'm not aware of, I'm aware of things you're not aware of, at the end of the day that doesn't really matter, we're both headed for the same place

If you're at peace with your current level of awareness then that's unreal but there are some people who instinctually have a need to increase their awareness; I reckon those I listed above had this instintual drive toward a heightened awareness and look at what they did with their time here on Earth/contributed to humanity.

Bruce Lee used to say something like "the function and duty of a quality human being is the sincere and honest development of one's potential.”

Have you ever thought about the things you want to be aware of before you die or the things your trying not to be aware of before you die?

Peace

[No_One]

IME Shiva, the 'unreasonable' people are the ones most likely to rejoice at the discrepancies in Moore's film because it makes them feel exactly that they don't need to question the dominant belief system, or their 'sides' version of truth.

Don't pay attention to the film, abstract and look at the shit fight it's creating here, would we be doing this if he hadn't made the film? If you said yes your "unreasonable", if you said no your "reasonable".

Reasonable and Unreasonable are just words though.

El Dude, I agree with everything of what you've been saying except I reckon Darkness can destroy Darkness, Goya faced his demons by painting them, Brahma and Vishnu faught over who was stronger until Shiva showed up, etc.

Once the cats out the bag your gonna need a bigger cat to put it back in. If that bigger cat behaves itself it then has the power. The bigger cat knows all.

Lies are out of the bag so it'll take bigger lies to put them away.

[chilli]

Shiva, I didn't think it was a 'shit fight' until I read your last couple of posts. To me, it feels as though you're trying to cling to an untenable position in order to justify an untenable philosophy... then again, maybe I'm just not as enlightened as you. Mind you, the fact that you imagine there are parallels to be drawn between Michael Moore and Michelangelo would seem to suggest otherwise.

I tend to agree with El Duderino's pithy observation:

"The Light side is the force of truth and unveiling, uncovering lies, secrets and connections that are hidden. When the method of uncovering is by covering it is no longer illuminating. if the method of truth telling is lying, then this worker of the light is severley misguided, no matter his intentions. It is directly counterproductive to the cause, which ultimately is awareness of truth. Not emotional steering of populations."

I'm not sure how you can say you agree with most of what he's said when your one qualification "darkness can destroy darkness... lies are out of the bag so it'll take bigger lies to put them away" seems to be so contrary to everything he said?

Edited June 7, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[Vertmorpheus]

The First Rule of SAB Fight Club...you do not talk about SAB Fight Club, haha. Who gets to be the weird blonde guy that gets belted to the shithouse?

Is there a difference between someone that attempts domination and hurting of others thru words rather than weapons? Even if their aim is pretty shocking? Not a judgement, just something that occurs to me... do both spirits come from the same place inside us, to be Right?

IllegalB (you bastard :D ) , nute, nutrient. Al Gore just wandered into it, presumably on the same train as the rest of the lumpy looking white guys with a very important message to sell to the world via worldwide appearances courtesy of carbon belching jumbo jets. No biggy really.

I can see the POV of shiva and apoth both (somehow... I guess every coin has a rim). But all in all, I think that once you set yourself up as an Exposer of the Awful Truth, you should maybe cut the intentional misinformation. Or make clear that you are presenting a "theme" or a concept supported by factoids rather than a series of facts. But then apparently kids kill other kids more often the cheaper bullets are... I know that I spent many years at school wanting to kill everyone, but having only access to a 303, each shot would've been a lil pricey...

Maybe we should have media fast, to purify our minds... no screens or words for 28 days and you have to wear a pair of hessian undies. Liberating, if chaffing.

take care guys

GD

[chilli]

"IllegalB (you bastard :D )"

Bwaaah?

[Vertmorpheus]

In the most diplomatic of ways of course... I don't call just anyone a bastard yknow!

GD

[No_One]

Shiva, I didn't think it was a 'shit fight' until I read your last couple of posts.

Fair enough Champ, what if I called it one of these words instead of "shit fight": argument, disagreement, fuss, quarrel, etc.

[insert chosen word here] wouldn't have happened if it weren't for Mike Moores creation causing old mate to make another creation and then whoever it was creating this thread.

To me, it feels as though you're trying to cling to an untenable position in order to justify an untenable philosophy... then again, maybe I'm just not as enlightened as you.

I don't think I'm enlightened, I am what I am and I see what I see.

My philosophy is not untenable.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence and fulfills the duty to express the results of his thoughts in clear form."....Einstein

By the time I hit the finish line my shit will be in clear form. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Mind you, the fact that you imagine there are parallels to be drawn between Michael Moore and Michelangelo would seem to suggest otherwise.

Your missing the point, I was simply trying to show how Mike Moore is a successful contemporary artist, Mike Moore and Michelangelo both create and they both have/had an audience?

Admittedly Michelangelo's work has proved itself to have longevity but give Mike Moore enough time and one day his body of work might be deemed a masterly aswell, it's a bit presumptuous to think otherwise.

I'm not sure how you can say you agree with most of what he's said when your one qualification "darkness can destroy darkness... lies are out of the bag so it'll take bigger lies to put them away" seems to be so contrary to everything he said?

El Dudes and artist, artists know how to play with peoples senses to get certain reactions, I agree with most of his theories on Art/Reality, I don't agree that you can't turn a smear of black paint into something better by adding more black paint. Once the blacks there the blacks always there. Mirroring the smear with more black paint would make a symettrical, balanced work of Art.

Is there a difference between someone that attempts domination and hurting of others thru words rather than weapons? Even if their aim is pretty shocking? Not a judgement, just something that occurs to me... do both spirits come from the same place inside us, to be Right?

If it causes discomfort I can't see any difference. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Reality Bites.

Would depend if the perpetrator of discomfort was doing it for selfish or selfless reasons aswell.

[indigo264nm]

Meh - never liked the guy. Thought he was an asshole in the awful truth - a pathetic journalist in Bowling for Columbine and never even bothered to see the democratic propaganda of fahrenheit 9\11.

He's a wanker - one with a lot of opinions... and those with lots of opinions seldom use concrete facts to back up logic, more elastic information that can be spun anyway you put it.

Edit: hahaha what a hypocritical thing of me to say. I more mean I personally don't like his style of arguement, and I don't like his contribution to the "jump on the bandwagon - it's cool to hate America guys!!!" movement where there was just SO MUCH FUCKING TALK by young Aussie wankers with strong opinions who spent 90% of their time bagging out George W. Bush, and the other 10% dissing out America without using any sense of logic and replacing it with emotive arguements. A ruler doesn't dictate a country - I don't give a fuck about our politics and I wouldn't think it to be cool for people from other countries to have a grudge against me just because John Howard is in lead.

Edited June 7, 2007 by -=IndigoSunrise=-

[chilli]

Hi Shiva,

"I don't think I'm enlightened..."

Really? Then what do you mean to imply by quoting Einstein here...

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds."

The most obvious conclusion would seem to be that you are a great spirit contending with mediocre minds, is there some other kind of hidden meaning?

For the record, I don't hate Michael Moore, I think he cops more crap than he deserves and I do appreciate his role as a kind of cultural shit-stirrer, but he seems to see himself as a force for truth and enlightenment, so I find any kind of dishonesty or hypocrisy on his part to be just stupid, it makes him seem like a lowlife not some kind of Dada elite (wait, is there a difference?).

I don't think its presumptuous to say Michael Moore and Michealangelo are simply in different leagues, but the future certainly may prove me wrong as it has a way of doing to us all. Stupid future.

To me El Duderino seemed to be saying the role of an artist was to shock yes cause questions yes, but ultimately with the goal of pulling back the curtain and exposing Things As They Really Are, not covering it up and adding to the deceit and hypocrisy.

Basically, I think I understand and agree with your point to a degree, but I think you're overstating your case.

Peace anyway, no violence or ill intent from these quarters, just lots of the questioning you seem to value.

*edit* BTW, if you quote me and someone else in the same post, would you mind making it clear who wrote what? Cheers.

Edited June 8, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[No_One]

if you quote me and someone else in the same post, would you mind making it clear who wrote what

No worries, didn't realise it was a problem. You'd be able to tell which bits came from your mind though wouldn't ya?

Really? Then what do you mean to imply by quoting Einstein here...

- IllegalBrain

I'm merely presenting someone elses description of certain aspects of reality, the fact I include who's description(s) I'm using should make that fact pretty obvious.

If using other peoples descriptions/versions of reality leads to enlightenment then we're all already enlightened i.e. we don't need to ponder reality for ourselves, meditate, use entheogens, etc.

To me El Duderino seemed to be saying the role of an artist was to shock yes cause questions yes, but ultimately with the goal of pulling back the curtain and exposing Things As They Really Are, not covering it up and adding to the deceit and hypocrisy.

- IllegalBrain

Do you watch a cartoon then walk outside and expect to see talking animals? Do you look at the weekends footy teams and expect to see arrangements of letters i.e. names running around the field?

2D representations of the 3D and 4D aren't literally the 3D and 4D. They can trigger events in the 3D and 4D but they still only remain symbols of the 3D and 4D.

It's what happens when people walk away from viewing art/symbols that matters, they're not going to totally let go of their standard understandings of those symbols because clinging to them given them the illusion of safety, the little bit they let go off will lead them to liberation.

IMO it's an artist job is to get people to pay attention to certain symbols for long enough to open their minds up to other possibilities, once someone begins to open their mind they start to see the truth behind the lies.

Basically, I think I understand and agree with your point to a degree, but I think you're overstating your case.

- IllegalBrain

I don't present my views as clearly as the other side at the moment so I don't expect you to totally agree, as I said before my views will be clear by the time I hit the finish line.

Patience is a virtue.

I don't think its presumptuous to say Michael Moore and Michealangelo are simply in different leagues, but the future certainly may prove me wrong as it has a way of doing to us all. Stupid future.

- IllegalBrain

The futures real.

The most obvious conclusion would seem to be that you are a great spirit contending with mediocre minds, is there some other kind of hidden meaning?

- IllegalBrain

No, a mediocre mind needs to get personal, nothing should be taken that seriously that you need to get personal.

There comes a point where the subconscious hears things it doesn't want to hear and we instinctually flick the "attack" switch.

If our spirits are at peace with everything i.e. not restless we shouldn't need to attack (unless your going to eat what your attacking).

The mind stops a spirit from being at peace with everything through perceived injustices or an incorrect perception of reality.

If I mean no harm but am perceived as one that does mean harm by pointing out aspects of reality that unsettle people then to me that's when I'm in the company of a mediocre mind(s).

Mediocre minds don't have to stay mediocre - slaying denial is the first step, admit your vulnerability, we're all shit scared of the unknown.

If something hurts to deal with it's usually worth dealing with.

EG: Have you dealt with whatever it was that lead to your trust issues? Did it hurt? How are ya feeling now?

Peace

Edited June 9, 2007 by Shiva

[chilli]

Hi Shiva,

No worries, didn't realise it was a problem. You'd be able to tell which bits came from your mind though wouldn't ya?

Of course I recognize what I have written, I was asking you if you could do it so that other people reading didn't attribute words to me that I haven't said, but its only really an issue when you include other people's quotes. BTW, you don't need to do it manually, if you hit the QUOTE or REPLY button in my post, the forum software will automatically include it in the quote, as you can see I have done above.

I'm merely presenting someone elses description of certain aspects of reality, the fact I include who's description(s) I'm using should make that fact pretty obvious.

I'm not so naive as to believe this... you didn't 'merely' present someone else's words, you included them at a specific point in your post with a specific purpose in mind and I think the context makes it very clear what that purpose was. Don't tell me you weren't consciously aware of this? I didn't say it leads to enlightenment, I think you have grossly misunderstood what I was saying mate.

Do you watch a cartoon then walk outside and expect to see talking animals? Do you look at the weekends footy teams and expect to see arrangements of letters i.e. names running around the field?

Again, I think you've totally missed my point and are being literalistic with what I've said, which was basically that actual art should reveal something to us about the nature of reality, whether it be social structures or our prejiduces or whatever.

The futures real.

I don't think I implied it wasn't.

No, a mediocre mind needs to get personal, nothing should be taken that seriously that you need to get personal.

There comes a point where the subconscious hears things it doesn't want to hear and we instinctually flick the "attack" switch.

Shiva, are you implying I am getting personal or attacking you? It's certainly not the case, it feels as though you might be launching your own subtle attack here because I am disagreeing with you.

If our spirits are at peace with everything i.e. not restless we shouldn't need to attack

Personally, I feel as if the only thing that would lead someone to feel at peace with everything would be a strong state of delusion.

If I mean no harm but am perceived as one that does mean harm by pointing out aspects of reality that unsettle people then to me that's when I'm in the company of a mediocre mind(s).

Again, I feel as though this statement could quite easily be turned around... besides, I don't think you mean harm, I'm sure you're as well-intentioned as anybody, just maybe a little bit confused?

Mediocre minds don't have to stay mediocre - slaying denial is the first step, admit your vulnerability, we're all shit scared of the unknown.

If something hurts to deal with it's usually worth dealing with.

EG: Have you dealt with whatever it was that lead to your trust issues? Did it hurt? How are ya feeling now?

If you're truly interested, I'm willing to discuss it in the thread I started about this personal issue, but for now allow me to answer with a representation of your own reality:

...a mediocre mind needs to get personal, nothing should be taken that seriously that you need to get personal.

Cheers mate.

Edited June 9, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[chilli]

Hey GreenDreams,

I have been laying awake at night trying to figure out why you called me a bastard, because I knew you weren't just being a dick... you would never do that. I've finally come to the conclusion that you thought I was implying you were a smartarse, but I wasn't, I was just going along with your joke. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't inadvertently insulted you... I would rather be, um... advertent with my insults.

Cheers matey-oh.

Arrr I'm a pirate arrr.

Edited June 9, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[chilli]

oops

Edited June 9, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[No_One]

Personally, I feel as if the only thing that would lead someone to feel at peace with everything would be a strong state of delusion.

Go and load up on some Molly then come back and tell me we don't have a latent potential to feel a oneness with everything/everyone.

What things does your mind forget while your pinging that it remembers/thinks it knows when your in you natural mind-set? What mind-set do you like better, the "it's me versus them" mentality or the "we're all in this together mentality?".

If you don't know/can't tell what they are do some backpacking around your subconscious i.e. tripping.

It's possible to feel the oneness naturally if you deal the aspects of your SELF that stop you from feeling it naturally.

AXIOM OF A WARRIOR

In order to become a man of knowledge, one must be a warrior, not a whimpering child. One must strive without giving up, without complaint, without flinching.

One learns to act like a warrior by acting, not talking.

To be a warrior, a man has to be, first of all (and rightfully so) keenly aware of his own death. But to be concerned with death would force any of us to focus on the self, and that would be debilitating. So the next thing one needs, to be a warrior, is detachment. The idea of imminent death, instead of becoming an obsession, becomes an indifference.

Only the idea of death makes a man sufficiently detached so he is incapable of abandoning himself to anything. Only the idea of death makes a man sufficiently detached so he can't deny himself anything. He knows his death is stalking him and won't give him time to cling to anything, so he tries, without craving, all of everything.

A detached man has only one thing to back himself with - the power of his decision. He has to be the master of his choices. He must fully understand that his choice is his responsibility, and, once he makes it there is no longer time for regrets of recriminations. His decisions ares final, simply because his death does not permit him time to cling to anything.

A warrior does not abandon himself to anything, not even to his death. A warrior is not a willing partner; a warrior is not available, and if he involves himself with something, you can be sure that he is aware of what he is doing. For a warrior, there is nothing out of control. Life, for a warrior, is an exercise in strategy.

The spirit of a warrior is not geared to indulging or complaining, nor is it geared toward winning or losing. The spirit of a warrior is geared only to struggle, and every struggle is a warriors last battle on earth. Thus the outcome matters very little to him. In his last battle on earth, a warrior lets his spirit flow free and clear. And as he wages his battle knowing that he will be impeccable, a warrior laughs and laughs.

Shiva, are you implying I am getting personal or attacking you? It's certainly not the case, it feels as though you might be launching your own subtle attack here because I am disagreeing with you.

No, all I was trying to do was give my reasoning for using the the quote. That quote came into play once Apothecary (who I have much respect for BTW, and no I'm not just saying that to sway his oppinion of me ) tried to shut me down with a coping mechanisms i.e. calling me "that guy" sort of thing.

you didn't 'merely' present someone else's words, you included them at a specific point in your post with a specific purpose in mind and I think the context makes it very clear what that purpose was. Don't tell me you weren't consciously aware of this? I didn't say it leads to enlightenment.

I was very conscious of why I used it.

I think you've totally missed my point and are being literalistic with what I've said

So I shouldn't take what you say literally? Say what you mean.

I don't think you mean harm, I'm sure you're as well-intentioned as anybody, just maybe a little bit confused?

If I'm making ya feel uncomfortable stop engaging in discussion with me.

If something hurts to deal with it's usually worth dealing with.

EG: Have you dealt with whatever it was that lead to your trust issues? Did it hurt? How are ya feeling now?

If you're truly interested, I'm willing to discuss it in the thread I started about this personal issue,

I'm interested dude, that's why I asked about it, there's compassionate personal and attacking personal, if I have to get personal I try to make sure I get compassionate personal (i.e. the person, or both of us, learns something from it hence growing/becoming stronger).

"Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up"....Jesse Jackson

If you have closer look at what I said you'll see I was using an aspect you've shared of your own life as an example to validate my point that the things worth dealing with i.e. your demons hurt like hell to deal with, deal with them and they'll stop hurting, when they don't hurt anymore you'll be at peace.

Being fearless is peaceful. Peace has to be fought for. I love a good fight.

"How much can you know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?"....Chuck Palhniuk, Fight Club

I'd rather help you deal with whatever it is that's stopping you from being at peace with everything than be the boxing bag you hone your coping mechanisms on, that go's for everyone BTW.

"No fear. No distractions. The ability to let that which does not matter truly slide"....Chuck Palhniuk, Fight Club

Peace

[chilli]

Hi Shiva,

Thanks for your response, there's some good and some less good stuff in there... I'm not really looking to get into an extended self justification routine over this topic, but there's one or two things I think its important to clarify.

...come back and tell me we don't have a latent potential to feel a oneness with everything/everyone. What mind-set do you like better, the "it's me versus them" mentality or the "we're all in this together mentality? It's possible to feel the oneness naturally if you deal the aspects of your SELF that stop you from feeling it naturally.

Its not so much about which mindset I like better, but which one I think corresponds more accurately to reality, so I'd have to say I like the "all in this together" mentality a lot better, but I don't think it is an accurate representation of humanity's endemic nature and the world we live in.

However, I do think we have a potential to feel oneness with everything, I've experienced it myself many times whilst "backpacking around my subconscious," which leads me to conclude its a biochemical state of mind, not a reflection of reality... this is why I think its akin to delusion. Personally I don't think jettisoning rationality and individuality entirely in favor of a mystical emotional state of monism is necessary or helpful, although I don't think human reason is a totally reliable compass either.

Apothecary... tried to shut me down with a coping mechanisms i.e. calling me "that guy" sort of thing.

I kind of felt like this is what you were doing to me with the "mediocre mind" sort of thing. Also, I can't see where Apothecary said this, but I guess that's for you and him to work out.

So I shouldn't take what you say literally? Say what you mean.

I do try to say what I mean, and you should take what I say literally, but not literalistically, by which i mean being overly literal. As an example, I said art should reveal something to us about reality, and you asked if I would expect to see Donald Duck running around after watching a cartoon. This is idiotic and clearly nothing to do with what I was actually saying, its only a ridiculously overly literal interpretation that might lead someone to conclude that this was my point.

If I'm making ya feel uncomfortable stop engaging in discussion with me.

You don't make me feel uncomfortable at all, I'm not sure what this is in reference to? I find many of the things you have said to be illogical and contrary to how I understand reality, but there's nothing unusual about that and it doesn't disturb me in the least. In fact, people who make me feel uncomfortable are the one's I like talking to the most... I hate back slapping sessions where people tickle my ears with more of what I already believe.

I'm interested dude, that's why I asked about it, there's compassionate personal and attacking personal, if I have to get personal I try to make sure I get compassionate personal (i.e. the person, or both of us, learns something from it hence growing/becoming stronger). If you have closer look at what I said you'll see I was using an aspect you've shared of your own life as an example to validate my point that the things worth dealing with i.e. your demons hurt like hell to deal with, deal with them and they'll stop hurting, when they don't hurt anymore you'll be at peace.

You mentioned it as an example to validate your point that I have a "mediocre mind," this not compassion, just an obvious attempt to assert superiority, as I said please ask in the appropriate thread and I'll discuss it further with you.

I'd rather help you deal with whatever it is that's stopping you from being at peace with everything than be the boxing bag you hone your coping mechanisms on...

I doubt you have the ability to help me, although I appreciate the intention if its genuine. I'm not using you as a boxing bag... I'm just disagreeing with you, which you seem to interpret as a personal attack. This is why I said your pronouncements about other people's subconscious drives could just as easily be applied to what you have written in this thread... is there room for that in your worldview?

By the way, I found that quote from Axiom of the Warrior very interesting... where is it from?

Land Ho!

Edited June 10, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[No_One]

Sorry, should've supplied the source - this is it:

www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/irresponsible_activities/warrior.html

Dude, I'm not gonna go on with this hey, your picking the eyes out of irrelevant shit, twisting meaning etc. just to provide fodder to your oppinion that your ego is better than mine, a lot of meaning gets lost in the translation of this medium and that's what's leaving the door open for you to do this, I'm gonna quit while I'm ahead. Call me a pussy if you need to.

Slow deaths hurt more than quick deaths; the longer you drag out the killing of your ego the more it's gonna hurt.

To conclude, let me say that right know in this moment I'm thinking/feeling what this guy is thinking/feeling.

Peace

[chilli]

Hi Shiva,

Well I'm pretty disappointed, that was not the response I expected, although I probably should have... I'm not sure exactly why you feel the need to respond in such a patronizing manner, especially when you've just been telling me that personal attack was the recourse of mediocre minds.

Sorry you feel I've twisted the meaning of your words mate, I think mostly I've just been trying to explain my own words so I'm not sure where you came up with this, and given the fact that you seem unwilling to explain I guess it will remain a mystery.

I really am confused... is this the same Shiva who talks about tolerance and ego dissolution? Doesn't seem to be much of that in your last few posts I'm afraid. Before reading this thread you seemed like such a nice guy... but maybe you're just having a bad week or something.

In my last post I said "I'm just disagreeing with you... is there room for that in your worldview?"

I guess not?

*edit* I really don't want beef Shiva, so maybe you can just point out what specifically about my last post has got me on your wrong side so I can at least explain?

Edited June 10, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[No_One]

You've sucked me back in again; nice one!

I'm not sure exactly why you feel the need to respond in such a patronizing manner, especially when you've just been telling me that personal attack was the recourse of mediocre minds.

My mind becomes mediocre when I let it have some down time, it get's down time when it doesn't need to concentrate i.e. perform at it's best.

As I've mentioned before, I'm not sure of your intentions (in the same way you can't be sure of mine), for this reason I've deemed replying to your posts "down-time".

Future events may change the way I reply to your posts, who knows?

is this the same Shiva who talks about tolerance and ego dissolution? Doesn't seem to be much of that in your last few posts I'm afraid. Before reading this thread you seemed like such a nice guy... but maybe you're just having a bad week or something.

Same guy just a different mode of operation i.e. lazy, heartless, flacid.

I really am confused...

So you are being honest with your SELF now?

Keep that up and you never know, great stuff might just happen.

In my last post I said "I'm just disagreeing with you... is there room for that in your worldview?"

There's room for anything in my worldview that trumps anything I have in my current one, I know where I wanna get to so I try to listen carefully to the people that are already there/have been there, no offence but nothing you've said convinces me where your heads at is a better place to see reality from then those that see it the way I want to see it or even how I see it now, apparently you think the same of mine so I guess we can feel a oneness in that regard?

maybe you can just point out what specifically about my last post has got me on your wrong side so I can at least explain?

It's your style/method/tact you go about achieving whatever it is your trying to achieve; you've spun a web from which I'm unable to determine if your for real, taking the piss or just flexing in the mirror, whilever it's like that you'll remain a potential hostile/reptile/phillistine/non-believer/ignoramus. I don't lay my heart out their just for it to get pissed on.

Hope this clarifies why I'm letting you go.

Swim Little-Fishy Swim!

BTW Don't take anything I say literalistically, by which I mean being overly literal.

Peace

[chilli]

Hi Shiva,

"...no offence but nothing you've said convinces me where your heads at is a better place to see reality from then those that see it the way I want to see it or even how I see it now"

This doesn't offend me at all because like I said I don't decide how I would like to see reality and then find people that will confirm it for me... if it works for you then fine, but I don't see how you can go around pontificating about other people avoiding things that make them feel unsafe or threatened... it's sounding more and more like this 'little fishy' thing of yours is a projection of your own weaknesses.

"...you've spun a web from which I'm unable to determine if your for real, taking the piss or just flexing in the mirror, whilever it's like that you'll remain a potential hostile/reptile/phillistine/non-believer/ignoramus. I don't lay my heart out their just for it to get pissed on."

Wow, this is from the guy who was attempting to give me counseling on issues of trust? Personally, I try to take the opposite tack which involves lending the other person the benefit of the doubt until they prove that they don't deserve it, which you appear to have done quite thoroughly. It sounds to me like I exposed an error in what you were saying and you were unable to come up with a suitable response, so you reverted to childish insult.

I hope you don't mind if I borrow some of your own words and apply them to myself:

...I mean no harm but am perceived as one that does mean harm by pointing out aspects of reality that unsettle people...

Edited June 10, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[No_One]

It sounds to me like I exposed an error in what you were saying and you were unable to come up with a suitable response, so you reverted to childish insult.

Don't flatter yourself chief, how long would you talk to a chair before you realised it's not gonna change it's response?

I'd already stated problems can't be solved with the same thinking that created them, if you have to cling to the type of thinking that created your problems then I respect you for that but this respect decreases you express your need to switch your definitions of brave and weak.

Dead Horse - Guns N' Roses

Sick of this life

Not that you'd care

I'm not the only one with

whom these feelings I share

Nobody understands, quite why we're here

We're searchin' for answers

That never appear

But maybe if I looked real hard I'd

I'd see your tryin' too

To understand this life,

That we're all goin' through

(Then when she said she was gonna like

wreck my car...I didn't know what to do)

Sometimes I feel like I'm beatin' a dead horse

An I don't know why you'd be bringin' me down

I'd like to think that our love's

worth a tad more

It may sound funny but you'd think by now

I'd be smilin'

I guess some things never change

Never change

I met an old cowboy

I saw the look in his eyes

Somethin' tells me he's been here before

'Cause experience makes you wise

I was only a small child

When the thought first came to me

That I'm a son of a gun and the gun of a son

That brought back the devil in me

Sometimes I feel like I'm beatin' a dead horse

An I don't know why you'd be bringin' me down

I'd like to think that our love's

worth a tad more

It may sound funny but you'd think by now

I'd be smilin'

I guess some things never change

Never change

I ain't quite what you'd call an old soul

Still wet behind the ears

I been around this track a couple o' times

But now the dust is startin' to clear

Oh yeah!!!

Sometimes I feel like I'm beatin' a dead horse

An I don't know why you'd be bringin' me down

I'd like to think that our love's

worth a tad more

It may sound funny but you'd think by now

I'd be smilin'

Ooh yeah, I'd be smilin'

No way I'd be smilin'

Ooh smilin'

Sick of this life

Not that you'd care

I'm not the only one

With whom these feelings I share

it's sounding more and more like this 'little fishy' thing of yours is a projection of your own weaknesses.

The little fishy is a projection of my recognition of weakness/heightened UNawareness. I've made the mistake of trying to strengthen this little fishy by taking the blinkers off his eyes, for some reason the little fishy wants to keep them on though, probably cause hwat you don't know can't hurt ya.

I'm feeling bad now cause the poor little fishy is losing sleep now, he doesn;t know if he wants to stick with the school or swim with the sharks.

I've learned a lesson from this i.e. not all fishies want to see/be reminded of what's outside the water they feel safe in.

Maybe I need to leave the angling to guys like Rex Hunt, Rupert Murdoch, Eddie McGuire, John Howard, Ronald McDonald, Bill Gates etc. who knows?

Hamlet

Act 1. Scene V

Hamlet

HORATIO

O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!

HAMLET

And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. But come;

Here, as before, never, so help you mercy,

How strange or odd soe'er I bear myself,

As I perchance hereafter shall think meet

To put an antic disposition on,

That you, at such times seeing me, never shall,

With arms encumber'd thus, or this headshake,

Or by pronouncing of some doubtful phrase,

As 'Well, well, we know,' or 'We could, an if we would,'

Or 'If we list to speak,' or 'There be, an if they might,'

Or such ambiguous giving out, to note

That you know aught of me: this not to do,

So grace and mercy at your most need help you, Swear.

Ghost

[beneath] Swear.

HAMLET

Rest, rest, perturbed spirit!

They swear

So, gentlemen,

With all my love I do commend me to you:

And what so poor a man as Hamlet is

May do, to express his love and friending to you,

God willing, shall not lack. Let us go in together;

And still your fingers on your lips, I pray.

The time is out of joint: O cursed spite,

That ever I was born to set it right!

Nay, come, let's go together.

[chilli]

"I'd already stated problems can't be solved with the same thinking that created them, if you have to cling to the type of thinking that created your problems then I respect you for that but this respect decreases you express your need to switch your definitions of brave and weak."

LOL actually, I think it was Einstein that stated that. You're getting kind of incoherent and much of this sentence doesn't make even grammatical sense, but from what I could decipher I find it interesting that you seem to think I am clinging to a type of thinking that has created my 'problems'... we must be talking about different things, I thought we were discussing the Bowling For Columbine documentary by Michael Moore? Try and stick to the topic if you can... if you feel the need to keep bringing up the personal stuff, do it in another thread.

[No_One]

My watch is two days behind SAB time so sorry for not being in the moment.

REASON: Big Brother took my internet privileges off me for talking without a microphone.

I already told how this made me feel bad and led me to the decision not to bring all I have to this fight, I'm only throwing punches with enough inertia to let you think your winning/have won in the hope you can reclaim whatever it is you need to reclaim so you can go back to sleeping again.

The sleeping pill I would've prescribed to you at the time would've been a thorough restoration of your sense of dignity/reputation, a good way to get some of this back on forums is a carpet bombing of as many threads as you can but I can see you've already figured that out, look's like it's worked cause you've restored your pride and come out with balls to post in the "what are we" thread, told ya I only mean good.

“A guy who came to Fight Club for the first time, his ass was a wad of cookie dough. After a few weeks, he was carved out of wood.”....Chuck, Fight Club

I came out swinging and you said I was overstating my case so I backed off.

You kept swinging and your pride got hurt, keep hurting your pride.

The amount of punches I ever throw are less than or equal to the amount of punches I need to throw.

if you feel the need to keep bringing up the personal stuff, do it in another thread.

I'm keen if you think your up to it? How serious/honest are we allowed to get?

LOL actually, I think it was Einstein that stated that

Good to see your using humour to deal with me now.

If you think that's funny then you'd probably see the funny-side of you not being able to tell that in the instance you're refering to I was alluding to the sentiments I'd previously expressed, If I have to rehash shit I've already said all the time that'd get annoying but if you want me to I can?

Do you use words from the dictionary? Do ya tell people where you get your words from?

You're getting kind of incoherent and much of this sentence doesn't make even grammatical sense

Sorry, I didn't realise the spelling/grammar police did patrols on the SAB forums. Will ya let me off this time? I really need my spelling license, without it I'm nothing! [breaks into tears].

you seem to think I am clinging to a type of thinking that has created my 'problems'

Correct, whatever it is your scared/tormented by gets it's power/dominance over you from the way you perceive it/think about it/your attitude toward it.

If your unwilling to rethink whatever it is your scared of/tormented by you'll always be scared of it/have a bad attitude towards it.

Look at what's happened now your not scared of being shot down for expressing yourself.

Peace.