Los Genteles

[t_tr]

I ran across this discussion while looking for Gentiles information. It immediately grabbed my attention and curiosity. One thing that I am curious about, if Archaea has any updated information to share. Also does anyone have pictures of Gentiles seedlings, juvenile plants, and/or mature plants to share? I understand Smith’s Socratic method of questioning to obtain an absolute about the Gentiles specimen. I look forward to an update when and if one is available and more discussion about the Los Gentiles specimen.

t_tr

Edited October 27, 2008 by t_tr

[Teotzlcoatl]

I talked to the owner of Sacred Succulents, the vendor of the "Los Gentiles" peruvianus.

~ Teotzlcoatl ~

Edited October 31, 2008 by Teotz'

[M S Smith]

How sad that no one seems to find the presentation of the so-called "evidence" for the lengthy use of the so-called "Los Gentiles" among a particular group of Peruvians as being worth sharing. Why won't Ben at SS or Archaea at least point out the name of the originator of the "hypothesis" or the literature from which the claims are gathered? Good thing science isn't conducted in the manner this presentation has been, as if it was it would only discredit itself.

~Michael~

[Patrick]

if i can get this to work here are some los gentiles seedlings at a few stages on the smaller side, in the last pic i set a peruvianus sdlg on the left of the lg for comparison.Patrick

the first pic is cuzcoensis in back los gentiles in middle and the cut off sdlgs are werdermannianus i have been grafting. the second pic is a los gentiles i grafted earlier this summer ,the 3rd is a recent los gent graft .I have noticed that when put into the sunlight the los gentiles really start turning blue as is the case with a few of the sldg grafts i have outside you can see it a little in these ones .

Edited October 29, 2008 by Patrick

[t_tr]

Thanks for the pics Patrick, VERY nice. I agree with Michael, why are we being left in the dark? If the "story" is true, then it is worth sharing the facts! I am very curious to see what Ben has to say in regards to the Gentiles legacy.

t_tr

Edited October 29, 2008 by t_tr

[woof woof woof]

would be facinating if people indeed isolated and grew a trich for their specific qualities for a few hundred years.

i do however believe one thing that geo-isolation and other enviro factors is the only thing giving echinopsis spp their distinct expressed features... echinopsis spp simply interbreed easily..... so it is probably a very dynamic spp

kinda like the human races of the world..... easily exchange gene info.... and poof.... you get these beautiful mixed up people... external features and cultural mix...

i am only saying.... hehehhe.... whatever chokes your chicken on this one!!!

I am more of a purpose oriented person. so if it is a beautiful sub variety...... or has some feature that make it more resistant to rot or has that much wanted goodies profile...........

so lets develope more potent strains in all shapes, colors and sizes! market them as beautiful ornamentals and sell them all over the world.... securing our goodies where ever we go.........

maybe adapt them for space travel while we are at it! whahahhahahahahha

[Teotzlcoatl]

Here's what the owner of Sacred Succulents had to say about the subject-

Response-

This is ridiculous. I'm not sure what story people are even

discussing, because it seems to have some added fictional dimension

outside of the info in the SS catalog, which perhaps no ones

actually read? There was never any hypothesis, outside your

discussion group. It comes from a family in Matucana that has

farming land on the mountainside a bit north of town above the Rio

Rimac. The cactus grows all over their land (and beyond)and they

tend and harvest it, but don't really cultivate it per se.

Ethnobotanist Neil Logan, who has spent some time there living with

the family, reported that they claim to have tended the cacti for

milennia and they said that it's a preferred selection at many

herbal markets, though i have not seen it for sale in my travels.

Neil saw no evidence that they use the cactus themselves. Neil just

reported what they said and passed it along. Neither he nor I ever

claimed that the supposed 38000 year lineage is true, only that it

was said. There's no way to actually know. There's no

archaeological evidence that we know of from that region that

supports their story or refutes it. I'm forgetting the name of the

original indigenous group in the area, but it's not Quechua, and

it's possible that the family has direct lineage, or it could just

be a good tale, as you often find in South America. I visited the

area briefly in June and made some seed collections, saw the farm,

etc. It's standard peruvianus as seen in the wild in that region. I

hope to spend more time there in the future and see if any of our

questions can be answered.

I don't know if this will clarify anything. No one's bothered to

ask me before, and these discussion groups don't seem to be that

interested in much beyond hypothesis and hyperbole, definitely not

science. But hey, whatever floats your boat. The redemption seems

to be that least people are growing plants! More growing, less

armchair speculation!

saludos,

B

[M S Smith]

As for my part in this thread, well I wasn't a contributor to the mythology about the plant, but was rather the strongest voice against it.

Thanks Teotz for taking the time to explore the issue and for posting "B"s comments. Though I don't understand why you would say "the owner of Sacred Succulents" since he signs every one of his catalogs with his name and those of his family.

~Michael~

[jmmvl]

Though I don't understand why you would say "the owner of Sacred Succulents" since he signs every one of his catalogs with his name and those of his family.

while your distaste for teotz is well documented, must you get on him for a simple case of semantics? he didn't say "the only owner of..."

[M S Smith]

jmmvl, that was only in reference to, and to make a point upon, something Teotz and I touched upon in PM. Sorry if it sounded mean.

~Michael~

[Teotzlcoatl]

Mr.Smith has been very nice to me, I think I perhaps jumped to some conclusions about him in the past that I should not have.

He just helped me with a few questions that I PMed him.

He a very nice, very inteligent person. I hope to see him posting in all my threads!

Thanks for your input Mr.Smith!!!

Edited October 31, 2008 by Teotz'

[mutant]

Hell, nice thread. I enjoy a nice arguement. Even though there was no much point in it, even before 'B' clarification through Teotz...

[Gunter]

I'll take any blame for bad information or whatnot, it was never my intention to mislead or lie.

I have notes from conversations with both Ben and Mr. logan, if my notions or portayal angers either I apologize.

I avoided this topic because I kept seeking confirmation from Mr. Logan of several things and I never got it a chance to follow up on.

Those notes indicate that the cacti were fertilized and occupied a niche that related directly to a method of farming associated with the region. I tried to avoid speculation as well as avoiding being a skeptic and just looked into what i could about the plants and the claims made about them.

here are my words from the top of the thread

There is every indication that the plants they cultivate are descended from the same plants of their ancestors. I would suggest that any skeptics in this regard have the ball in their court so to speak, to find some manner of evidence to support refutation, otherwise my investigation into this topic has shown that the stock is a fascinating and genuine part of an ancient tradition that continues to this very day.

perhaps I went too far in supporting the idea that the claims weren't lies, I don't like the anti-native bias I have observed called scientific skeptisicm.

I also wrote the following:

Your either a doubter or a believer, either way names like macrogonus and peruvianus don't mean shit (to me) to say the least, at least not till the house of Pedro is in order taxonomically.

As far as productivity, perhaps believing people who have studied the subject and spent time in the field with the plants and people is foolish, I should much rather trust the doubts of a temperate collector familiar with only horticultural material.

Again I'll mention this information comes from what i was told:

The man who was able to stay with the family was able after some time to be shown the location of the plants and participate in the harvest for local markets.

was I told wrong? How do I know. Do I trust people? yes most often I do.

I wish I had my full notes on the topic with me, but I don't.

I correlate the Los gentiles with a widespread phenotype.

Perhaps I mentioned also that i was told that the cactus from the region in question were in such demand that they were transported to other consumers and the term market meant in this context not a stall market place, but a market as in area of demand. The information being they would not have appeared in public markets, but were allready sold before they were shipped, via donkey I might add, I was relayed this by a man who said he was told it by the harvesters themselves and he told me it was what they said, but that he didn't see it.

Mr.Smith has been very nice to me, I think I perhaps jumped to some conclusions about him in the past that I should not have.

He just helped me with a few questions that I PMed him.

He a very nice, very inteligent person. I hope to see him posting in all my threads!

Thanks for your input Mr.Smith!!!

I wish I could say such things, he is a well read man who has accomplished many things.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Archaea