Do we want and/or need religion?

[gomaos]

ouch...

[ramon]

Its not a matter of belief, things are as they are, you dont need to believe it.

So you are suggesting that you don't process new information, verify it for truth and then accept it.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Ramon

[Guest onemind]

So you are suggesting that you don't process new information, verify it for truth and then accept it.

I think the thing that thinks and processes new information is not me and needs to believe nothing. Its just an impersonal process of cause and effect and faithful states of mind change very little.

[Northern Gnome]

Obviously some of us want religion (earth folk) and some need it (seem to be better people with it).... Next?

[parzival]

I think its rather obnoxious to think that the error lies with religion, don't forget shamanism is a religion, the primordial religion. The fact that you are sitting infront a computer screen is way more than enough proof that god exists, the absolute miracle of being!!! "Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people" to appropriate a popular saying. I myself am a religious person, though i do not belong to organised religion, I read a fair bit on different faiths and attend some meetings of different groups (go to a sufi Zikr its beautiful). There is great wisdom in all paths to god, because they are all exactly that; paths to god (whatever god may be, i don't think anyone has ever even come close to coming close to knowing what god IS) Faith in god can manifest itself as an endless love for all beings, or a fucking sword, the difference is you. You dig?

I really hate the "how can there be a god when bad things happen to good people" argument, its very easy to say but it achieves nothing. That idea is born of the belief that God has some sort of temperament (some even so stupid to suggest a gender! hahahahaha) which to me is absurd.

The more interesting of the religions will have you believe that this is god, you reading my post, right now, is god. My keyboard is the holiest thing in the world! This is the reality tunnel i fall into easiest.

I say Religion is the opiate of the foolish, and a key to the wise.

"When a man begins to speak, he has already missed the mark" hahahahaha

[Guest onemind]

The fact that you are sitting infront a computer screen is way more than enough proof that god exists

This proves nothing. There really is nothing technical about boolean logic or charging a wire on and off not to mention the fact that man made it in a process of evolution over hundreds of years ;)

Buddhism is the path to nothing because there is no god

[parzival]

That was a whole sentence, you missed "the absolute miracle of being". The fact that the concept of a computer even exists, the fact that you ARE at your computer. When i try and think about the fact i'm sitting here right now, it blows my fucking mind. 'Being' is what i meant.

not to mention the fact that man made it in a process of evolution over hundreds of years ;)

The fact that man is undergoing a process of evolution! Isn't that enough to say that god exists and therefore religion is valid?

In the case of buddhism, then it isnt a religion (more a way of life in light of your comments onemind) and doesn't belong under that label, and hence isnt relevant to this post, so disregard it. However i didn't actually mention Buddhism.

Edited November 11, 2006 by Parcifal

[Guest onemind]

Thats fine, but most would consider it one of the worlds great religions. When since did the word religion become equated with god?

I agree, life is a trip out and every moment is somewhat of a miracle but that doesn't neccessarily mean there has to be a god behind it all and i cant stand that argument.

Another quote from Eistein:

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."

I just think that looking at the complexity of the world, being unable to explain it then just make the blanket statement "that proves god exists" is primative and simple minded.

[Guest onemind]

Isn't that enough to say that god exists and therefore religion is valid?

No

[parzival]

Please re-read my post. God (meaning some sort of higher power) is an intrinsic part of religion, Buddhism and its associates i guess being the exception, as there is to every rule.

When i write god, I don't refer to the popular concept. It's sort of my own concept, but it isn't too far from other ideas of god so as to cause too much trouble in discussions like this. Obviously this is hard to explain. Its somewhat outlined in what i've posted already, hence the reason i ask you to re-read.

Einstein also spent his whole life "trying to understand the mind of GOD"

We just have differents beliefs. We are both equally right and wrong.

I'll stop using the word "god" because too many emotional tags come along with it, people make assumptions when they hear "god", and its really hard to get my point accross with that sort of fog.

I'm sure you have experienced what everyone else on this forum has, how could you not believe in a higher power after that?

[-bijanto-]

I just think that looking at the complexity of the world, being unable to explain it then just make the blanket statement "that proves god exists" is primative and simple minded.

I may be primitive but that's how I prove the existence of the Creator for myself, ie the feeling of how limited and weak I am, compared to what the Creator is capable of.

The world isn't made just for those complex-minded people, thus the logic underlying the existence of the single Creator (or the one Being) must be very simple, yet can be made very complex, being able to cope with all stages of human's mind and civilization.

Edited November 11, 2006 by -bijanto-

[Guest onemind]

I'm sure you have experienced what everyone else on this forum has, how could you not believe in a higher power after that?

Its complicated

Basically, buddhism is 2600 years old and has taught the non existence of god all that time. The buddha grew up in an area where the belief in god was the main view of all people. He proved once and for all that each passing mind state is an illusion and not created by a god head.

I'm not about to give you a buddhist education but whatever the case, i will die not believing in god regardless of what the peasants go on about. If you want to believe that god is the fundamental energy behind all existence that is fine, i couldn't care less. What one ant on the ant hill believes in is insignificant.

[gomaos]

as absurd as it is, I have to thank onemind for discussing all this with the rest of yous'...

i don't have the nerve, but basically agree with one mind's opinion (not all but most).

The fact that you are sitting infront a computer screen is way more than enough proof that god exists

that indeed proves nothing.

I dson't even understand why it should proove anything.

Computers are 100% man-made and can be used by men only.

Totally useless for all other animals and for plants.

It proves the existence of god as little as the existence of tvs, spaceships or the hubble-telescope.

Totally man-made for use by (hu)men only.

[parzival]

I am repeating myself here. Basically, when i refer to "god" i am not talking about the popular concept, forget whatever you think god is, you are misinterpreting me. Call it a higher power, but that introduces some sort of hierachy to the matter which i don't like. Let's call it a vast power. An essential energy. There are lots of cheap new-age tags that somewhat describe it. Words are nothing.

Since there is no god in buddhism, i am not talking about buddhism. Again i'm repeating myself. Some call it a religion, some don't.

Computers are 100% man-made and can be used by men only.

Totally useless for all other animals and for plants.

It proves the existence of god as little as the existence of tvs, spaceships or the hubble-telescope.

Totally man-made for use by (hu)men only

The question of a computers use for plants and animals is totally irrelevant. For the last time, i'm not talking about computers . I AM TALKING ABOUT EXISTENCE. BEING. I could have said "the fact that you are fucking a toad is proof that god exists" or "eating beans" or what have you. But i chose a computer because that is what you are actually doing. To me, the implications of the FACT THAT WE ARE is astounding, it doesn't have to prove any definate thing gomaos, only hint at it.

You and i are but single ants on this ant hill. "regardless of what the peasents go on about" stinks of arrogance.

As i also said before, We are both equally right and wrong, belief is entirely relative, if i am coming accross argumentative i apologise its not my intention, i'm just trying to make sure i get understood.

Peace and blessings

[Guest onemind]

So what?

[parzival]

To what do you refer?

[gomaos]

well I'm also lost for words, I thought I'd throw this in was just listening to it

God Song (Wyatt, Miller)

What on earth are you doing God? is this some sort of joke you're playing?

Is it 'cause we didn't pray?

Well I can't see the point of the words without the action

Are you just hot air breathing over us? and overall

is it fun watching us all?

Where's your son? we want him again

Next time you send your boy down here

Give him a wife and a sexy daughter - someone we can understand

Who's got some ideas we use really relate to

we've all read your rules - tried them. Learned them in school then tried them

They're impossible rules you've made us look fools

Well done God but now please

don't hunt me down for heaven's sake! You know that I'm only joking. Aren't I?

Pardon me - I'm very drunk but I know what I'm trying to say

And It's nearly night time and we're still alone waiting

For something unknown Still waiting

So throw down a stone or something

Give us a sign for Christ's sake

[parzival]

hahahaha i like it, i'm gonna download that song

Edited November 12, 2006 by Parcifal

[-bijanto-]

A man went to a barber shop to have his hair and his beard cut as always. He started to have a good conversation with the barber who attended him. They talked about so many things and various subjects.

Suddenly, they touched the subject of GOD (or THE CREATOR). The barber said : "Look man, I don't believe that THE CREATOR exists as you say so."

"Why do you say that?" Asked the client.

“Well, it's so easy, you just have to go out in the street to realize that THE CREATOR does not exist. Oh, tell me, if THE CREATOR existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If THE CREATOR existed, there would be no suffering nor pain. I can't think of a THE CREATOR who permits all of these things."

The client stopped for a moment thinking but he didn't want to respond so as to prevent an argument. The barber finished his job and the client went out of the shop. Just after he left the barber shop he saw a man in the street with a long hair and beard (it seems that it had been a long time since he had his cut and he looked so untidy). Then the client again entered the barber shop and he said to the barber:

" know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How come they don't exist?"-asked the barber.

"Well I am here and I am a barber."

"No!" - the client exclaimed. "They don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and beard like that man who walks in the street."

"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me."

"Exactly!"- affirmed the client. "That's the point. THE CREATOR does exist, what happens is people don't go to THE CREATOR and do not look for IT, that's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

[Hagakure]

never liked the idea of a creator.

way too much anthropomorphising involved for my liking.

the tao and some aspects of hinduism tickle my fancy though

i also dig buddhism but onemind is doing a bloody good job of turning me away from it

onemind, are you a fundy using reverse psychology?

[Prophet]

Nice one bijanto

[Hagakure]

i dunno, its a pretty messed up story

if your child has a birth defect, if you fall ill, if you have a horific accident etc etc etc its because you aint chummy enough with god?

thats essentially what the story says.

you can choose to have hair (suffering and pain) or you can go to barber (god) and have it removed.

if there is a god that hands out suffering and pain to people who dont gather round in buildings saying how great he is, is he really worth worshipping?

[The Dude]

i dunno, its a pretty messed up story

if your child has a birth defect, if you fall ill, if you have a horific accident etc etc etc its because you aint chummy enough with god?

thats essentially what the story says.

you can choose to have hair (suffering and pain) or you can go to barber (god) and have it removed.

if there is a god that hands out suffering and pain to people who dont gather round in buildings saying how great he is, is he really worth worshipping?

hmm i guess if you equate hair to human suffering... I'd say that the hair here represents ones own world view / belief system / religion (we all have one). But we can go to a god-merchant to stylise our world view into their liking...

Or we could be atheists or nihilists and just shave our head.. or we can let the god within us take control and be unshaven hippies. I love dreads though to me the ultimate symbol of being an individual (like all the other hippies that look exactly the same individual though as it'sl hair doing whatever the fuck it wants.. jsut like me baby! - buahaha

Seriously onemind, for someone that so likes to parrot buddhist beliefs you seem to act and behave in a very arrogant way.. All the enlightened Yogis I ever encounter (in tv and such) have nothing to say except a bit of a nod and smile... maybe there's some great wisdom in that (and I should shut the fuck up)

And sorry to point this out to you, but you are just dogmatically following somebody elses belief system, because the buddah taught about the non-existance of god for so-ever many years when every1 else was.. theistic/polytheistic whatever. .. so obviously god doesnt exist.. cuz that's buddhism and i believe that, so it's obviously the absolute truth because.. i believe it.

never practiced Buddhism. As Far as I understand .. on a neurological level during the boundary disolving state of 'enlightenment' where you cease being yourself but become everything (or nothing) that is the pariatal lobe(from memory??) ceasing its action of giving us our sense of self/position in the context of the whole. This state of Nirvana or whatever you may call it, is fantastic for remembering from what we come.. that our seperate lives are an illusion we project for ourselves.

So Buddhism is fantastic for cutting away the veils of illusion, down to the most basic empty state of being.. empty awareness. But that is not the absolute truth obviously.. you are in a state of eptiness.. and cuz u followed the dogma so well and you practiced .. religiously .. you attain this state and declare.. Yes this is how it is... You're just as deluded as the rest of us "peasants", sorry mate... Arrogant too, where's the humility of Jesus Christ or the Buddah? Some religions are lost on people if all they do is parrot the teachings and philosophy without acting it out in ways of.. just being a nice person.

See the Buddha was just a son of a rich dude and he could have the luxury to sit round and philosophies i guess. But it's a cool philosophy.. what an excellent way to escape from the pain of reality.. they're just illusions.. I can feel good now and continue being a slave...

I'm very cynical. all religions are there to define a purpose and to give one solace in times of desperation and pain.. to pacify people that may otherwise get a bit too pissed off.

Anyway I MUST PROVE TO YOU THAT GOD EXISTS.

You are possibly correct in saying that the most basic.. the very first state of being.. or whatever the fuck.. the universal truth of everything is that at first.. there was nothing... or ..something , like that. To me the very fact that reality exists (a belief you must share??) is proof of god.. and lets just get down to definitions.. god = creator = what created existance.. and well sure existance exists.. no disproving that, you cannot disprove a creator god. Our creation is before us everyday.

But the act of creating existence is the act of god, in which we all partake, hence we are god.

I mean essentially it is all about belief, one cannot prove/disprove the concept.. we can get into logical debate about semantics and that. Where I'd say that you're belief in the non-existence of god is proof of god, of the concept even in your mind, as you have to negate this concept in order to believe as you do.. whatever man!

the logical argument is stupid though, at explaining the inexplainable.. i mean i may as well be 100% convinced of gods non-existance after watching that Hitchhikers Guide God Argument thing, cuz logically that's how it added up.

(I can never keep my posts short, sorry for rambling)

Edited November 12, 2006 by El Duderino

[Guest onemind]

you seem to act and behave in a very arrogant way.. All the enlightened Yogis I ever encounter (in tv and such) have nothing to say except a bit of a nod and smile

Its quite simple really, i'm not an enlightened yogi and dont pretend to be. Maybe i should deny my ego and ACT compassionately and maybe people will think i'm wise like the rest of you. Or i could just be myself regardless of what others think as per usual.

And sorry to point this out to you, but you are just dogmatically following somebody elses belief system

Not at all, when someone calls themself a buddhist they are mearly saying they have found something in buddhism that they are willing to put the experiment to the test and find out if it is true or not for oneself. There is no faith in buddhism. As for why i became buddhist, there is no way i could have sat down with a book on buddhism and read about rebirth, kamma, nonself, yadda yadda and said, oh, that sounds good, i'm a buddhist now. If it were not for my own near death experience and other happenings none of what i read would be real to me and i would not waste my time with it. Buddhism is the only teaching that can put my own personal experience into context without just saying man, what you experienced was amazing which proves there is a god and you must believe and pray or burn in hell.

on a neurological level during the boundary disolving state of 'enlightenment' where you cease being yourself but become everything (or nothing) that is the pariatal lobe(from memory??) ceasing its action of giving us our sense of self/position in the context of the whole. This state of Nirvana or whatever you may call it, is fantastic for remembering from what we come.. that our seperate lives are an illusion we project for ourselves.

You may be right and that is why i always say i'm 50% buddhist and 50% atheist. I started a debate on a buddhist forum a while ago saying the buddha never existed and nibbana is just the brain ceasing to function on a buddhist forum so i doubt you think anything that most reasonably intelligent people think. If i'm arrogant then so are you by your comments ;)

[Guest onemind]

And Gomao, you're growing on me but for someone who truely doesn't believe in god you sure do a lot of crying about him ;)

Edited November 12, 2006 by onemind