harmine bioasseys

[t st tantra]

following on from rued shiva similar results were obtained by local geenomes using approx one to one and a half largish leaves of caapi or powdered tribilus root bark in place of the rue.slightly more trib than rue was needed.

in sa ,3corner jack is a local weed,i beleive this to be trib [terrestis?].in my girlfriends backyard i dug up pieces of root up to 2 cms thick,and sometimes over 20cms long,broken,i never got a whole one.this bark ssshaved and powdered was used.these plants several years old,die back to roots each year,harvested after dieback.

t s t .

[t st tantra]

notes on smoking harmala alkaloids;

1tsp srue seeds 3gms 60-180 mg alkaloids

say 16doses 0.2gms 4-11 mg alk

poorly absorbed by stomache.

10 mg harmine min iv dose.

dose required reduced if using mixed harmala alkaloids.

synergy also from shiva.

body tremor felt,audio tones experienced,yopo activated at this dose,for 60kg gnome.increasing dose gave rise to nausea.

forgot to mention,trib had slight red cortex,untested.

t s t .

[Guest reville]

'Three cornered jack' may or may not be Tribulus.

There are species widespread throughout Southern Australia with similar fruit.

Emex australis andEmex spinosa are two of these.

Distinguishing features of Emex are its English spinach like leaves while Tribulus has small leaves that are pinnate like a mimosa.

Nausea with Anadenanthera hey? I think thats part of the experience

So a couple of large capi leaves has what effect exactly? I once had a pleasantly stimulating tea with Galangal and Capi leaves

Effects short lived but definite and not reproducible with Galangal alone. Only leaves from the peak of summer were active.

If anyone is interested in Bulk Certified organic and viable AGWA identified Tribulus terrestris fruit i can help you out there.Maybe root next season if theres some value in it (labour intensive no doubt). Harmala alkaloids are S9 but this is dependent on concentration and besides treated seeds are exempt right.

[theobromos]

Galangal is very effective at increasing absorbtion of some chemicals, by increasing blood supply to the stomach and possibly other actions. Rather like the traditional mixture of pepper (Piper nigrum), long pepper (Piper longum) and ginger used in Ayurvedic medicine to increase absorbtion of other medicines.

[waterdragon]

Originally posted by reville:

If anyone is interested in Bulk Certified organic and viable AGWA identified Tribulus terrestris fruit i can help you out there.Maybe root next season if theres some value in it (labour intensive no doubt). Harmala alkaloids are S9 but this is dependent on concentration and besides treated seeds are exempt right.[/b]

be careful planting these things. it took me three seasons to clear the back paddock of them by walking around in thongs and burning the seeds that stuck. the seeds brown off on maturity and split easily into sections which can go all over the place. they're a tough and adaptable plant and very painful to walk upon.

[t st tantra]

this 3 corner jack had mimosa like leaves.

i have some roots spare if anyone is interested.

the gnome tells me with this method no nausea is felt,it is pleasant, at times joyous etc.

i'm curious though how health food shops can sell 5gm tribulus extract tablets and need no maoi warning?

t s t .

[Guest reville]

Id like some, whate r u selling them for?

HM would 50gm be? or more

Have you tried the seeds? The tea i talk about is 2 or 3 extractions on the same seeds, about 30-40g in total. The root sounds alot stronger.

Do you pick when in fruit or before? or have you already said ? ill go and look

[Guest reville]

' Harvetsed after dieback"

sorry

[t st tantra]

the root bark may be stronger,but much of this is about the poor level of oral activity.

want to swap trib root for caapi leaves?

t s t .

[Guest reville]

Sure if you can hang on another Month or two.

Just getting going now.Ill get in touch when theyre ready.

[John_Barleycorn]

Originally posted by t st tantra:

the root bark may be stronger,but much of this is about the poor level of oral activity.

Tst, one of the things I want to try with that root you provided me is to see whether a lecithin water extract makes any difference. Or alcohol for that matter.

Another thing to consider is that, besides the alkaloids in there, there also seem to be some steroids which presumably are responsible for the effects on sex organs, anti-cancer properties, etc.

It's also interesting that there are a number of documented cases of sheep staggers (a la Phalaris) from consumption of Trib. Terr.

[t st tantra]

hi john,you know of the method for obtaining relatively pure alkaloids using salt,which i have seen on the net?think i remember it from highschool!

t s t .

[Guest reville]

There was an interesting technique...

If you lived in the USA where this d be legal

You soak your harmala alkaloid containing material in 2/3 strength white vinegar to extract the alakoids as acetates

then you filter and make up to 10% NaCl solution and put it in the fridge to chill.

Apparently the haramala alkaloids convert to Chlorides and precipitate out as flakes out while the other nasties stay in solution.

Ive heard it works but inorganic chem never was my thing.

[Auxin]

"inorganic chem never was my thing."

You can call me picky if you want, but alkaloid manipulation is organic chemistry.

As far as the harmine/harmaline hydrochloride crystalization thing goes, I dont have hard data to say just HOW effective it is. What I do know is thats its harmaline hydrochloride dihydrate and harmine hydrochloride dihydrate that are formed by crystalization from water.

Pure harmine hydrochloride dihydrate is freely soluble in hot water, soluble in 40 parts water at room temp, less soluble in cold water.

Pure harmaline hydrochloride dihydrate is moderatly soluble in room temp water, and less so in cold water.

I have heard (but have no proof) that excess salt decreased the solubility further, especially at low temps.

Harmine hydrochloride dihydrate is about 74.54% harmine freebase.

harmaline hydrochloride dihydrate is about 74.72% harmaline freebase.

Both alkaloids in freebase form are slightly soluble in water.

[Guest reville]

Originally posted by Auxin:

"inorganic chem never was my thing."

You can call me picky if you want, but alkaloid manipulation is organic chemistry.

ok you got me there.

Basically in school i understood the whole C-H-O thing but pH, solubilities, extraction...Bah!hopeless

In uni we did a little bit but then it was mostly enzyme kinetics, DNA and immunoassays

I know this extraction works..but ive never done it..I guess that privelage belongs to those near wild rue in NSW, Vic and SA

[theobromos]

1 kilo seeds powdered, though not finely. 3 litres 5% acetic acid (distilled vinegar is best). Allow to soak for a day and squeeze as much of the liquid out as you can. Add 2 more litres of vinegar and repeat. Add another two litres of vinegar and repeat.

Bring the combined extracts to the boil (though you might want only the first two if you are uncertain of the strength of the seeds) and remove from the heat. Add 10g of salt for every litre of vinegar solution. (Check this in the original, I thought it is one per cent but it could be ten). Allow to cool without disturbance (no peeking).

It works.

[John_Barleycorn]

Anyone got an explanation of how this reaction works? I have trouble seeing how it could be thermodynamically favourable (eg, I presume you can't expect to make hydrochloric acid by adding salt to vinegar).

[Auxin]

"Anyone got an explanation of how this reaction works?"

Yeah, I've had problems getting my head around that too. What I've decided to believe is that with excess salt a equilibria is set up where a percentage exists as the hydrochloride, that then crystalizes out and the equilibria in the liquid medium is reestablished, more hydrochloride crystalizes out, etc. until almost all has been converted to the crystaline hydrochloride. Of course I could be overthinking it, maby the anions just switch places- sodium chloride to sodium acetate and harmine acetate to harmaline hydrochloride (this would not involve formation of acetic, or hydrochloric acids so its not really unreasonable.)

Anyway, it probably one of those two mechanisms.

[John_Barleycorn]

It occurs to me that there is another reaction going around on the net which analogously involves the slightly magical creation of a strong acid from a weaker acid and a salt, namely, H3PO4 + KI -> HI. Lots of over-educated chemists have scoffed at that one at various times. Apparently it works.

[Auxin]

"slightly magical creation of a strong acid from a weaker acid and a salt"

I told you that acid formation is NOT what is happening here. No HCl formed! You are converting one chloride into an acetate and another acetate into a chloride. No HCl formed! Your combining harmine acetate and sodium chloride to get sodium acetate and harmine hydrochloride. No HCl formed! Its like if you take silver acetate, dissolve it in water and add a salt solution. Silver chloride will pecipitate and the salt is converted to sodium acetate. Again, no HCl formed!

Oh.. and your right, chemists will swear that hydriodic acid (HI) is a much stronger acid than the first (most acidic) proton in ortho-phosphoric acid and because of that

H3PO4 + KI = KH2PO4 + HI

SHOULD NOT WORK

I'll look into this in the next day or two (I know I want to know if/why it works. It shure could prove handy if you need to make HI in situ without adding a stronger acid, like H2SO4.)

[This message has been edited by Auxin (edited 23 October 2002).]

[theobromos]

Auxin is right in this, I believe. The insolubility makes the production of the harm(al)ine hydrochloride salt favourable.

[This message has been edited by theobromos (edited 24 October 2002).]

[John_Barleycorn]

Oh, and another one of those implausible reactions which has been bubbling around in the back of my mind has just surfaced, so I may as well share it with you all. This one involves the reaction of calcium chloride on water solutions of morphine. Apparently the organic salts of morphine (said to include meconates) convert to HCl salts, accompanied by precipitation of the calcium salts of the organics. So, precipitation is once again the key to making the whole thing happen.

There is also a woolly suggestion floating around on the Internet that CaCl2 will convert morphine base to the HCl salt. I haven't gone back to the original references to verify this, but I must say it does seem implausible. For starters, CaCl2 is a Lewis acid and is known to complex directly with many basic amines. On the other hand, CaOH reacts with morphine and its salts in a manner that is slightly non-standard. That is, instead of the alkali simply liberating the free base, it also reacts with the OH groups on the morphine to form calcium morphenate.

So does anyone have any more info about what CaCl2 does and doesn't do to opiates? (And Tst, sorry for hijacking your thread on haramine extraction, but I am sure we will get back to the topic shortly)!

[Auxin]

"CaOH reacts with morphine and its salts... it also reacts with the OH groups on the morphine to form calcium morphenate."

Ah yes, the key to extraction of morphine from mixed opium alkaloids [note, its Ca(OH)2]. Its only one OH group that reacts with Ca(OH)2, the phenolic one at position 3. Thats why the purification leaves codeine behind (codeine has a alcoholic OH, but no phenolic OH and an alcoholic OH just cant make a Ca salt in aqueous sol'n.) In this extraction only phenolic opiates make Ca salts, and all others are just the freebase so they can be removed from the mix with an organic solvent while leaving behind the Ca salt of morphine in aqueous sol'n. Then you just acidify it enough to free the Ca, but leave morphine as the freebase, extract with organic solvent, and BINGO nearly pure morphine. A classical extraction.

[bark]

anyone tried (or have inf. on)tribulus fruit ingested? particularly its use as ayahuasca analogue.

30-40 grams seems like a lot rev. Extracted in hot water I assume. I noticed slight interactions with other herbs even at doses of 5g of whole fruit ground and swallowed.

-b

[Guest reville]

yes 30g is a fair bit but its fairly inexpensive and anyway if you were using caapi youd need use the same or more in a brew, well i would

yes i boiled it, a decoction, no acids added.

analogue? thought about it but the other half of the party is notoriously hard to find away from the eastern seaboard and all those lovely acacias.

[This message has been edited by reville (edited 01 November 2002).]