Phalaris/Acacia Extraction

[Brodez]

Hi,

An intelligent frog read and understood a simple process for extracting dmt alkaloids from phalaris grass, but he was wondering if this same process could be used for extracting the alkaloids from dmt-containing acacia bark? Process involved acids and bases to get the salts...

Could anyone familiar with extraction could help this litte frog? He is also wondering if 'bark' as mentioned everywhere is simply the tree's 'flesh'?

Ta

[John_Barleycorn]

Originally posted by Brodez:

Process involved acids and bases to get the salts...

You do realise that if you extract DMT salts that you are probably limited to eating them? (that is, unless you can work out some way to mix your product with an alkali prior to smoking it)

[Brodez]

oh that was just a rough idea of the process...the alkaloids are the final product by adding acid againg or something like that...process doesnt worry him, just if it can be transferred to acacia..

[Caldeye]

As far as I know, acid/base extraction methods apply to almost any kind of tryptamine-containing plant material.

Your frog may check http://dmt.lycaeum.org and their message board, there's plenty of info on the subject.

IMHO, the methods they use for extracting goods from Mimosa rootbark (MHRB) would be just as good for extracting acacia bark.

[John_Barleycorn]

Originally posted by John_Barleycorn:

You do realise that if you extract DMT salts that you are probably limited to eating them?

although it occurs to me after the event that the salts could in principle be snorted, which might actually have the advantage of slower onset for those who don't wish to be launched into space by the smoke How come you (really meaning me) don't hear about this method much?

[Brodez]

The defensive buildup that happens so quickby the body against DMT wouldnt let you get a slower onset would it? Well not the 'peak' experiences anyways..

[John_Barleycorn]

The other thing that occurs to me after the event is that the Erowid reports on DMT are flakey as all hell, and in many cases it doesn't seem that people know what exactly it is that they have been consuming. Most HCl salts of the more interesting alkaloids melt between 160C and 190C. The reason some of them can't be smoked (eg, cocaine) is that the goodies degenerate during vapourisation.

The situation is complicated by the fact that many people are not so much vapourising as combusting, and this is guaranteed to stress the molecule further. This occurs for two reasons. First, due to the use of bongs or joints. Second, due to the use of impure salts which may suffer collateral damage from the burning of the impurities.

Meth HCl clearly vapourises successfully. I would say the jury is still out on cathinone, DMT and ephedrine. Anyone with more experience to report?

[Guest electro]

.

[This message has been edited by electro (edited 13 October 2002).]

[John_Barleycorn]

Originally posted by electro:

*shrug*

Either way.. if you do end up experimenting with cathinone, dmt or ephedrine Base VS Salt let me know the results... i would be very interested to find out.

After a bit more digging around, it appears that DMT.HCl won't form crystals, and organic acids like DMT acetate seem to be preferred. Doesn't stop you smoking the HCl salt, naturally, but probably makes it harder to handle.

Oh, another smokable alkaloid salt that has just occurred to me is morphine/heroin.

[theobromos]

Really? Heroin is usually supplied as the freebase in Britain.

[Guest reville]

What about freebase Ibogaine? mescaline?

Would freebasing an unknown alkaloid mix be safer of more risky than ingesting the salt?

reason iask is that im ware that if testing a plant smoking is a better mode as it allows more precise dosing as opposed to the irreversible consumption route

[John_Barleycorn]

Originally posted by reville:

reason iask is that im ware that if testing a plant smoking is a better mode as it allows more precise dosing as opposed to the irreversible consumption route

I suppose it depends. The smoke generally gives more of a rush (faster up, faster down), so may not necessarily be safer. And sometimes processing through the liver is required for potency (eg, codeine) and other times it diminishes potency (eg, DMT, salvinorin).

[This message has been edited by John_Barleycorn (edited 06 September 2002).]

[John_Barleycorn]

Originally posted by electro:

While meth hcl vapourises successfully, it seems much more harsh (so my elf tells me) than freebase. Sugar content makes it hard to tell sometimes though.

The pure salt should give a clean burn test. If you've got sugar in there you will see a caramel residue, as well as experiencing that lovely acrid smoke

[John_Barleycorn]

Originally posted by reville:

What about freebase Ibogaine? mescaline?

I don't have any practical experience in that department, but I have gone and had a look at a Merck.

Ibogaine: the base is insoluble in water, and sublimes @ 153C. The HCl salt melts @ 300C, is soluble in the usual water and alcohol, but also "slightly" soluble in acetone and chloroform.

So, as far as extraction goes, you need alcohol or an acidified water solution (which will of course form a salt). I am assuming here that the natural state is at least partially free base, which was a point of some contention a while back in another thread. They are more or less saying that the base vapourises successfully. I would say that the HCl salt (and any organic salts present) melt at such a high temperature that smoking could be problematic, but snorting could work. And watch out what solvents are used to degrease the salts.

Mescaline: the base has some water solubility, melts @ 36C, and boils @ 180C. The base forms a carbonate salt on exposure to air, with an unspecified melting point. The HCl salt melts @ 181C, and is soluble in the usual.

So, as far as extraction goes, the first point to note is that a conventional acid-base extraction is unnecessary and in fact won't work. A simple water extraction would seem to do, as the cacti crowd already seem to have discovered (although an alcohol extraction could possibly give better yields). It is difficult to judge whether either the base or any of the salt forms will vapourise successfully. Snorting could theoretically work, but given that a typical dose is roughly 300mg, I have difficulty seeing how anyone could stuff that amount up their nostrils. And I guess we could also start talking about suppositories, but let's not go there.

One thing I could have made clearer about the hazards of eating vis a vis smoking is that the lethal thresholds (LD50s) for most substances are lower when taken intravenously than when taken orally. This is to do with rates of absorption, liver filtering action, etc. Smoking and snorting may be regarded as intermediate between those two extremes of consumption. So, as you kind of implied, one advantage of bypassing the oral route is the ability to take in small amounts and get some quick feedback. But taking in a single large amount could also be someone's undoing.

[This message has been edited by John_Barleycorn (edited 05 September 2002).]

[This message has been edited by John_Barleycorn (edited 06 September 2002).]

[Auxin]

"Mescaline: the base has some water solubility, melts @ 36C, and boils @ 180C."

Sorry john, but that boiling point of 180 C is at a greatly reduced pressure (12 mm Hg) normal atmospheric pressure is over 63 times that, therefore the normal boiling point would be much higher. Unfortunatly none of my books tell its boiling point at standard pressure, perhaps at standard pressure it decomposes before boiling