andean_dreamer

here are the pics:

This has been a great topic. I have some pups of the ecuador plants growing under someone else's care and I just got to see these plants. I will post photos early next week when I am able to get them to a reasonable size. In short the t. peruvians short spined description above seems to match very well. The new growth does not display the deep horizontal creases or corncob like appearance of the stock or the older growth. The spines clearly change color from being yellowish and more red at the base to being a sort of greyish color. The oldest spines are long, the midsection on one plant is nearly spineless and the new spines are shorter. The spines within one areole are different lenghts with the lower typically longer. There is fuzz in the areoles but it is short. I am not sure if that counts as wooly. Referring back to the two links in post #16 the cacti in the first link look very much like what I was seeing in the area. If you look closely you can see branches in various conditions. Some have the distinct corncob look and others have the very deep creases. Others have a more classic pach look. The photos I will post will reveal that these plants appearance changes dramatically with growing conditions. While my plants don't display the most severe deeply creased look, the transplanted stock sections I had photos of at first complete the data. I postulate that if the B&R plants were found in an area with a climate that was predominately the "deep crease causing" climate, then the same plant could look very different in another area and still be the same plant. As for the Plowman specimen in the second link on that page, I associate that with the ceremonial cactus of the native andean peoples. This association comes from seeing detailed pre-columbian art depicting cacti that look essentially exactly like the cactus in that photo. I have yet to do an internet search to see if I can find images of such art to post. If the plowman specimen is a distinct variety I would be inclined to consider it the true san pedro of ceremonial use. Does anyone know of plowman cuttings available for sale?

Archaea, Michael, I would say that the specimen I collected is typical of the area, and in no way an anomaly. The spination is certainly variable and the smaller of the two shown is practically without spines. Were any of the large specimens without spines - it is hard to say. Since these seemed to be fairly common in that area I wasn't really in data collection mode. I suppose I was expecting identification to be a bit more cut and dried. It is rapidly becoming clear that it is a bit more messy than that. I wish I had better data. I don't currently have plans to visit Ecuador in the near future so I am unable to do further observation. The next time I am there I will definitely be documenting the variations in that area. (Riobamba) On a purely speculative note, if these cacti had ceremonial uses for the Inca, who were well organized with an empire running up and down the Andes, it stands to reason that they would not only select for desirable traits (say short spines) but would also spread their favorite variaties throughout their territory. I wonder if something similar is still occuring today. I found my specimens in an empty lot where someone had dumped a number of rather large cuttings. Of course someone may have trimmed their ornamental and just dumped the waste, but I found dumped cuttings in more than one empty lot. I am fascinated by this topic and how much is unknown or uncertain. I get the feeling that this would be a fruitful area of research.

While in Ecuador, in the mountain city Riobamba, I collected some specimens of a columnar cactus which vaguely resembles a T. Pachanoi. It grows tall (20-30 ft?) and branches readily. Its ribs have a more rounded profile than T.P. and there are distinct creases at each aerole although I believe these to be pronounced due to dehydration. In the established specimens, they may have been more like depressions than creases. If an ID is forthcoming I would be interested in the alkaloid profile. thanks a_d