Kykeion

Is that a cave in the background there Horus? You've got an awesome looking set up there, both the property and power garden. If I ever find myself in that part of the word I am definitely taking you up on the offer!

Well, that settles it. I'm moving in with Horus (sorry Horus you have no say). I'm tired of the weather here.

I've got two TPMs that did a very similar thing. The growths grew from an areole, not out of one like normal pups.

This is more or less my understanding as well. The SS TBMC supposedly throws infrequent short reverts (as would be expected since it came from a short form mother), however I have never personally seen an example of one (the jury is still out on what the revert pups from my SS TBMC will resemble). The other common TBMC seems to throw reverts more often, and they grow much longer than "normal" short TBM segments, though often skinnier than "normal" long from segments. I don't know if there is any morphological difference between these two clones when they are absent of reverts, but there are certainly different looking crests out there (such as the chunkier/fatter less spiny variety that ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ has and that I often see for sale from Europe on Ebay). Indeed. I was dissatisfied with trying to compare photos of specimens from different collections in attempts to answer a number of questions I have about TBMs and TBMCs. So I have been collecting different specimens to grow out myself for comparison. One of my projects/questions is determining what reverts will look like when removed and given a chance to grow out (are they indistinguishable from other TBMs, or do they just look similar but obviously different). I believe TBC above refers to a Trichocereus bridgesii crest that is not monstrose, simply crested.

Their crest came from a short form tbm, I'm not sure if it was their giant mother plant though. I am really curious about this too. I know of several people growing TBMC sourced from Bob Smiley (owns a nursery in Florida, US) which throws reverts that are longer and skinnier than the usual short TBM. This TBMC supposedly came from a long form TBM (I have no idea what the actual origins are). I have acquired several of these reverts to grow out and see what they look like when grown under the same conditions as my other TBMs. I have also let several reverts on my SS sourced TBMC grow to see if they resemble the short TBM they came from. Some folks think there may be more than one TBMC clone so I'm growing these out to test the idea.

I think one thing we need to consider in this discussion is the difference between different types of labeling: names, lineage identifiers and catalog numbers. In this context names are a relatively rare label generally reserved for plants and their clones that display some sort of desirable trait (color, spine length, etc.). A name should only apply to a single genetically unique individual and its subsequent clones, and can be applied to either a "pure" individual (bridgesii, pachanoi, etc.) or a hybrid individual. Hopefully if a name has been applied to a hybrid the parentage has been recorded (unfortunately we all know this is not often the case). Lineage identifiers are the labels that Auxin is referring to and the method he mentions is what I have most often seen (mother)x(father), and seems to be the standard. I don't think there is anything wrong with using a different method (like zelly's ss02xss01 x ss01xss02) so long as there is some explanation to the formula (though I don't know how you would write out the label for the crossing of two plants obtained from ss02xss01 x ss01xss02 using the non-bracket method). As far as simplifying Auxin's nightmare (Juul's Giant X Kimnach) X (((N1 X TPM) F2 X Psycho0) X Lumberjackus) I have no idea. Catalog numbers might help, but you would need a key to figure out what exactly you are looking at. I would consider the labels used/proposed by zelly and Evil Genius to be catalog numbers. I think catalog numbers make a lot of sense if you are a breeder creating multiple crosses each year, and potentially creating crosses from the crosses in the future. So long as you keep good records, complex crosses can be greatly simplified in terms of labeling: Ky01 = N1 x TPM Ky02 = Ky01 F2 X Psycho0 Ky03 = Ky02 x Lumberjackus Ky04 = Jull's x Kimnach Ky05 = Ky04 x Ky03 or (Juul's Giant X Kimnach) X (((N1 X TPM) F2 X Psycho0) X Lumberjackus) The important factor here is keeping good records and letting folks you share your seeds with know what cross your catalog number refers to. I don't know the best way to file these examples, but I like that each year they were created they were given a new catalog number, rather than all being assigned a single number tied to scop x juuls. If the progeny from EG 01/2012 turn out vastly different from EG 07/2013 and EG 11/2015 while the latter two are very similar you may be able to conclude that your pollination of the scop in 2012 with juuls was not as successful and that EG 01/2012 should be more properly regarded as scop OP. One thing to keep in mind is that a name refers to very specific genetics, while both linage identity and catalog numbers are going to refer to a much broader group of genetics, especially as complex crosses of crosses are produced by multiple folks. I think eventually these labels will become almost worthless though, both because of complexity and because not everyone is breeding with the same clone from a particular cross (my SS01xSS02 is different than your SS01xSS02). The seed groups below would have the same lineage labels as they hail from the same 6 initial clones, but that may not say much since each group was derived from four different plants (each color denotes a different individual/plant). ((SS01xSS02)x(Psycho0xYowie))x(EileenxHelen) = Group A Seeds ((SS01xSS02)x(Psycho0xYowie))x(EileenxHelen) = Group B Seeds

You could always bake it in the oven. Just be sure it is bone dry.

The difficulty with this topic is that there are a lot of unknowns and a lot of conjecture. The cause of monstrosity in one specimen may or may not be the same in another, and semi monstrosity may be completely unrelated to any full monstrosity. Plant genetics can be really complex, and there are lots of instances where they don't follow the "rules" as we understand them. We also know very little about cacti genetics in general, largely because there is not much of an economic drive to study them. Señor Jefferson, you bring up an excellent point with chimerism, that I never thought of (I don't know why given that I know some variegates are chimeral). To my knowledge TBMs (long and short penis forms) do not revert to normal growth (at least I have never heard of it happening) indicating that their monstrosity is stable and not caused/triggered by growing conditions. This also suggests that they were most likely grown from seed which happened to have a genetic mutation causing the monstrose growth, and that they were not strange pups that developed on a normal plant (sports). The TBMC that Sacred Succulents sells occurred as a sport on their mother TBM plant which was eventually removed and propagated. In this case the crest is the sport, and any "penis" pup that it puts out would be considered a reversion, not sport. The likelihood of the reversion going crested again is probably pretty low given we don't know what caused the original sport to crest in the first place. It is not uncommon for a sport to revert to the original form, but I am unaware of any reverted sports "unreverting" and showing the sport characteristics again. So no, it is unlikely that the penises you mentioned will crest again.

To my knowledge it is extremely rare to get monstrose seedlings from non-hybrid, non-monstrose parentage. It happens, it is just very rare. Also they are often more "fragile" then normal versions so I'm sure many die before being noticed, or are purposefully destroyed. Some (maybe all) were originally grown from seed. The monstrose T. schaferi was originally grown from seed. Others I think have just been around long enough that their origins have been forgotten or are recorded in obscure places. Sports are the other possible origin. Occasionally a plant will grow a branch that displays traits different from the rest of the plant (called a sport). If the trait is desirable and is recognized by a breeder/cultivator it will often be propagated by cloning (only reliable way to reproduce the characteristic). One of the crested TBMs (there may be more than one clone) originated as a sport on a TBM at Sacred Succulents, and THIS variegated TBM was a sport off of TBM in Italy. Seed grown monsters are just lucky (unlucky?) rolls of the genetic dice during fertilization. Sports may be caused by any number of things, none of which are well understood, if at all. Not necessarily, but breeding with monstrose, semi-monstrose, variegated and crest parents (if they are able to flower) will yield a greater number of offspring with these traits relative to random mutations showing up in "normal" seed. Though the characteristics may not be passed on if they are phenetic (due to environment) rather than genetic. For example zelly has observed that most if not all semi-monstrose bridgesii will revert to normal growth when planted in the ground where they have ample root space. Observing different crosses folks have been growing here over the years I have noticed that hybrids (both interspecific [between different species] and intergeneric [between different genera]) will tend to produce a greater number of freaks, for example Solaritea's terscheckii JS354 X peruvianus 'Jessica' which produced lots of variegates and albinos.

Should be, it didnt bother mine.

Gnatrol is what I use. I have not had much issue with them in the past, only occasionally finding them in house plants, and never to a detrimental level. Several months ago I noticed some in my cacti and other seedlings so I bought some of this (i think I found it on amazon) and it worked like a charm. I just dissolved a small amount in water, put in a spray bottle, and sprayed down the soil. I think it only took about three applications to eliminate them (I don't recall what the waiting period is to break the egg cycle).

Welcome Kizatzhaddarak! Glad to see you made your way over here.

I love the angle of this shot, cheer up!

Perhaps their name should read "captain kook australia"

Togemon! (yea for google!)

Just don't water it. I had one that developed weeping black spots that I though for sure was a goner. But I ceased watering, everything dried up, and the tbm soldiered on...

I have always found fasciation to produce interesting plants, though I can see how it would be undesirable in most commercial/agricultural/industrial etc. contexts. I most often see it in wild mullein where the tip of the flower spike will crest and form broad fans that I think have visual appeal.

Sweet find!

It would be cool to go back there and see if any of them are still around. Well, it'd be cool if some of them are still around, maybe not so much if they are all gone...

photo-2.jpg Looking at the third pic it looks like he(?) has two varities of TBM. I don't know if the larger ones are "the" larger clone, but they look like several that I have which grow to about 6in in length then terminate. They grow thicker and longer than the "short" clone, and tend to pup near the base creating more of a candelabra look than the upward growing cluster of the short clone. Short segment clone: Larger clones similar to Chilito's: Clone A from SS: Really long form. Not sure if longer ones above will reach this length, or it this is a different clone: Side by side of plants in pics 2 and 5 above: Possible stretching of short form due to low light, or possible revert from TBMC (rumored "medium" form):

Hey ferret, what's your process there? Germinate in vitro for simplicity (or space?), then graft? Or are you treating the seeds with something to induce variegation (etc.), then grafting? I'm assuming that you are not transferring to another medium after germination (due to high risk of loss), but maybe I'm wrong here.

Looks like a samurai attack to me

Welcome from Colorado, neighbor!!!

Impressive!!! Glad you were successful and didn't have any mishaps...looks like there was certainly opportunity for painful mistakes.