The San Pedro Experience

[M S Smith]

The San Pedro Experience.

Slide show:

http://www.evenico.net/mambo/index.php?set...dcdcfabd2b85a9a

Index:

http://www.evenico.net/mambo/index.php?set...dcdcfabd2b85a9a

~Michael~

[pat dasein]

Lucky hippies.

[Amulte]

gotta love that pedro

[M S Smith]

Here's another photo I recently found online. This "T. pachanoi" matches those in the above link.

~Michael~

[M S Smith]

Here's that Icaros fellow with one of his matching plants.

~Michael~

[Gunter]

They are so shiney, they look like thick peruvianus sections that have been handled until the glaucous bloom comes off. I have a hard time seeing them as T pachanoi in any but the most inclusive sense.

[AndyAmine.]

Have most of those cuttings in the above links and pictures been despined or is that exposure damage or jst really big areols with very little spines?

[strangebrew]

I imagine they've all been despined.

It all looks like the cactus anok and others are lucky enough to be growing to me.

Edited November 27, 2005 by strangebrew

[Amulte]

we need a dribbling emotocon

[M S Smith]

Could this plant be the one Wade Davis described?

This is from my Sacramental and Medicinal Cacti (all rights reserved):

In 1983 Wade Davis wrote in the Harvard Botanical Leaflets about a particular “clone” of T. pachanoi growing outside of Huancabamba, Peru. Covering a fourth of an acre it was left unmolested by the curanderos due to the mythology surrounding it; this even though considered by curanderos to be one of the most potent of plants.

It is believed a spirit guardian in the form of a large serpent lives at the center of the stand and inflicts a plague upon all those who enter. The basis of this myth resides in a bacillus (Bartonnella bacilliformis) known only from Peru and causing Clarion’s disease, a “temporary eruption of wart-like excrescences, mainly on the face but often covering much of the body.”

Davis states that the plant towers 45’ tall and fallen sections measure 14.5” in diameter (voucher, herbarium specimen, Davis 760, Harvard University). Such size greatly exceeds even the largest T. pachanoi that have been recorded to reach upwards of 8” in diameter. Davis unfortunately fails to give any further description.

~Michael~

[Gunter]

It might be, or is could be a giant pachanoid thus far obscure in horticulture.

Its one of my favorite mysteries.

[Gunter]

So many new posts, I love them Mike, but I am unsure where to put this so I chose the post on top, please forgive me.

There is a single forum I still use the name Sunchild at, its the Aya forum and I almost never post there. I do read it however and found a reference to the use of San Pedro in Bolivia that may have some traditional connection.

I won't quote it or anything but the notion of Bolivian elders seems to suggest some further investigation is needed to see if there is some evidence of traditional Bolivian use of Trichocereus.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=9366

[M S Smith]

I'm still working on exploring your comments suggesting the San Pedro cult arose in Bolivia and moved elsewhere from there, but I haven't found anything yet. Though there may be some use in Bolivia, it doesn't seem to be as prevalent as in Peru, and nothing seems to exist that would counter claims that use in Bolivia came through Peru first. I would suggest the herb markets in Bolivia be explored for clippings of Trichocereus. Then one would have some real support for a "cult" existing there.

~Michael~

[Gunter]

Estimates of divergence timeframes based on molecular evidence such as genetic analysis seem to be a good way to provide data about the divergence of the cactus populations involved. I think that a degree of stability and the lack of prevalent traditional use may indicate the Bolivian populations are older and represent abandoned populations that had more time to become stable than other populations in the area involved. I think that there were several cultural movements and event changes in the area that would have facilitated cultural movement in nearly every possible direction in the region at multiple times, a history of the region becomes important for consideration, though I have not looked into that topic much in the last year. I intend to read up on it more when I have time.

I would love to compare North Peruvian dates to Bolivian dates, I think that the species may have initially developed as a crop in Bolivia, but North Peru and Ecuador are also possible regions for it.

Keep in mind I am exploring options under the notion that the MRCA of the complex was cultivated and that if so where and when become immediate questions for consideration. All possible explanations then become subjected to falsification, if they cannot be supported or indicated in any manner then it doesn't matter if they can't be contradicted, however I think I have legitimate cause to suggest the possibilities I do. The answers I find in the exploration of the topic also lend more information about the premise that the MRCA was cultivated.

I think that if the assumption is that the populations had diverged previous to cultivation then the same means of testing indicated explorative propositions can allow the development of an explanation of how they plants came to be in their current states. Of vital relevance to any consideration of an MRCA is the presence of mescaline, one explanation is that the cultivated MRCA of the entheogenic complex had the alkaloid and that populations lacking the alkaloid or having inconsistent levels indicate that nature is not selective for mescaline and that inactive populations have a more feral phenotype, I would love to hear other explanations formulated I know several possibilities exist. I think it is good to put all of the possibilities up for comparison and consideration but I can only offer those that come to mind and interest me, at least for the time being.

[M S Smith]

I look forward to molecular or genetic studies of your theories, but I'm not in a position to believe what may come of these studies before such studies are done.

~Michael~

[Gunter]

Nor am I, I am using indications to suggest possible explainations for falsification, it is by no means blind science.