nabraxas Posted December 9, 2002 while in A'dam i had a good look at the P.Cubensis they had for sale fresh there. all ov them had roughly 10cm, thick as your thumb stems & undeveloped/unopened caps. a friend who grows commercially in london grows them the same- but he dries them for sale. supposedly most ov the psiliocybin is in the stems (why they bruise blue?) & unless you need prints, i think this might be the way to go for 2 reasons. a)fresh stems actually aren't that hard to eat-i have a psychological aversion to taste ov shrooms; & b)the cap seems to be thee most unstable part ov thee shroom, the stems will keep 'fridge fresh' for much longer w/out them & (as we all know) fresh mushies seem at least twice as strong as dried. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mesqualero Posted December 9, 2002 Add to that the fact that Shrooms are at their most potent just before the veil joining stem and cap breaks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest reville Posted December 9, 2002 I can see several advantages for commercial growers. Uniform product, more easily handled product. Fully opened shrooms look great fresh but they break apart and look shitty dried. At the stage mentioned they dry a lovely gold and stay in one piece Peak of potency vs. mass While the potency peaks slightly earlier, at this stage mushrooms have take just a little bit extra out of the subsstrat eto give that crucial few more grams to the pay cheque Conservation of substrate moisture Every day amushroom is attached to the casing and substarte its is drawing water. Mushies are 90% water so a 10g mushroom has 9g or 9mL of water. Water is very hard to put back into the substrate and it is the limiting factor in how long a bed fruits for, whether shiitake blocks or BRF cakes, there is plenty of nutrition left, and dunking in water overnight will rejuvenate them. In A'dam im figuring theyd be grown on trays like agaricus - you cant dunk them. Picking early conserves water and may mean an extra flush which is worth a lot! regarding stems vs. caps Caps are stronger but stems are more of te weight.Good commercial mushrooms would be grown with plenty of filtered airflow and the required lux so that mushrooms grow perfectly Nice fat heavy stems, not too long, and the greatest mass in unopened cap relative to stem. Ive met some fruitcakes who only eat caps, thinking stems are 'poisonous'. Don't bother educating them, just gather up the left over stems and make some blue juice. Equate stems to 1/2 to 2/3 potency of unopened caps. These are the same loonies who'll tell you mushies have strichynine, and theyre a dogmatic bunch. Not to be confused with the people who only eat veils - a true sign of good breeding and wanton decadence re fresh vs dry and other alternatives Reports suggest that fresh, dry and Tinctures all create significantly different strengths from the same material with dry being the least potent *but* tinctures made from dry material regaining much of the potency and being comparable to fresh A report i recieved from a correspondent O/Seas made the following extraction 50g of dried PC, finely powdered, into 400mL 90% EtOH, with the water extract being added to the mix afterwards (approx 100ml) so that 10ml equals 1g.The whole lot was run through several coffee filters, by the way 'Blue juice' isnt blue this way, its clear. The intention being to meter out in 25 to 30mL shots, equivalent to the normal 2.5 to 3 dry grams that is quite nice. Turns out that it was significantly stronger than anticipated with 15 to 20 mLs being quite strong enough for a social setting. We dont get everclear here so 90% isnt so easy to get. All suggestions made are only intended for application in countries where this is legal. [This message has been edited by reville (edited 09 December 2002).] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiders Posted December 10, 2002 The variations in the potency of caps vs stems in Psilocybe Cubensis is considered an on running joke on the shroomery. There is little evidence of any difference, and I am only aware of one study that did find a constistant variation - and this was minute. From the experiences of a friend, and from what Una has told me from Amsterdam, most of what the smart-shop owners tell you is incorrect. The blue staining of different parts of the mushroom fruit are not necessarily indicative of potency - in fact they are often representative of the present enzymes that are reacting with these alkaloids, rather than the alkaloids themselves. The thickness of the stems indicates the possibility of millet or bulk straw/manure substrates. Id have to also say that the veil is only used to give an idea of the point at which cubensis stop production of alkaloids - which is - according to Stamets - at near maturity when the gills begin to darken. The veil itself has no relevance to the alkaloid production, and the point at which production stops is up for debate and has never been sufficiently investigated. PF's idea that the veil breakage was the point that alkaloid production stops is quite flawed and does not stand up to any scientific findings. Cubensis itself may lose its veil at differing points in is life cycle, sometimes maturing to three times the size of the point where this veil breaks, while other spore-races, such as B+, can keep a veil right up to the very last stages of development, even after the mushroom has begun to rot. Gartz was never able to adequately pinpoint the period where the mushroom stops developing alkaloids, and Bigwood and Beug (1982) found a bigger variation in the weight ratios of related alkaloids between flush cycles of cubensis than from the relative stages of maturity. My opinion is that Stamets is right to say that cubensis is at its best at sporelation. He suggests harvest just before maturity. Many of the unique characteristics of cubensis spore-races are only apparent at full maturity, and ive never noticed a difference between aborts, pre-veil and mature fruits in terms of weight/potency when personally bioassayed. There may be a difference, but cubensis is mildly potent, so its impossible to measure. Ive found substrates to be the biggest factor that effects the potency by weight of cubensis - millet is the best!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest reville Posted December 10, 2002 Well there you go, my own bias has been shown up So perhaps there is no difference bewtween unpened and open but without sporulation. But i still think that caps are stronger and eating a dose of pure caps will not be the same as a dose of stems by equal weight. Millet is the best grain - so far. Less contam. more innoculation points. Stronger mushroooms. I wonder if ryegrass seed would be better again? Or Panic? even Phalaris seed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted December 10, 2002 some interesting replies. personally, the relative strength ov caps v stems to me is a side issue. i originally posted, 'cus in another post someone was lamenting their big stems & looking for a fix. to me the beauty ov growing big stems/small caps is not having to eat big fleshy caps, & being able to store them 'fresh' for longer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest reville Posted December 11, 2002 Ha! sorry to sidetrack the topic then! I', used to people asking me to see their abnormal mushrooms and tell them how to fix them not the other way around. If stems is what you want, then make sure the aeration is good but grow under low light levels and they will elongate greatly with the majority of growth going to the stems with small caps. A distant light source is good as they will all grow towards it like beansprouts. I think CO2 assists the process but there are several other reasons why higher Co2 isnt a good idea (Aborts, decreased pinset, encourages moulds). Light will have a decent effect alone. You could also try using one of the meatier strains or larger ones. From pictures ive seen the South american spore races are quite robust, as is the PF classic. If you can get it, "penis envy" is a mutant with super long fat stems and small caps. Also the Orissa strain often throws quite large fruits that would respond well to stem increasing techniques, not sure of the potency though but the other big ones like B plus arent very strong Heres a comparison in the morphology of 2 strains. I guess you can see the benefits of the right hand strain for you. http://www.shroomery.com/gallery.php?secti.../grow/mexb_.jpg Some fruits obviously grown in a terrarium or some other enclosed sapce as the stems are quite elongated http://www.shroomery.com/images/gallery/gr...grow/second.jpg Orissa http://www.thehawkseye.com/india/ind_rg2_sm.jpg http://www.thehawkseye.com/india/ind_db3.jpg http://www.micronmagick.com/Images/orissa3.jpg PF http://www.shroomery.com/gallery.php?secti.../grow/kaka2.jpg http://www.shroomery.com/gallery.php?secti...grow/fatty3.jpg Amazonian http://www.shroomery.com/gallery.php?secti...row/torkat_.jpg Bplus http://www.shroomery.com/gallery.php?secti...grow/2strb_.jpg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted December 11, 2002 wow- thanks rev. a whole afternoons worth ov reading. cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest reville Posted December 11, 2002 If a picture is worth a thousand words the maybe yes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted December 11, 2002 ho ho ho- see what you mean- given the speed ov my 380, i should have said a whole afternoon ov downloads. btw- there was no need for you to appologise for going slightly off topic. the info/debate generated was interesting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiders Posted December 13, 2002 I have seen some Treasure Coast that were grown off staight bulk manure teks and they were like chop-sticks tall, small capped and weird. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
