trich. I.D (help)

[spunwhirllin]

Doh!

just wanted to focus on the areoles and spine formations,and not totally hijack someone elses thread with two pics.

i'll see what i can do.

[ 10. May 2005, 17:21: Message edited by: spunwhirllin ]

[trucha]

The photo looks like one of the assorted forms of pachanoid-peruvianoids that goes off-on monstrose as it grows.

Only time will tell (unless the source can says)

An email I was sent asked for details of a comment I made

The quote was derived from assorted bioassay observations, extrapolations thereof and published accounts.

Overall peruvianus and KK242 are every bit as useful as most pachanoi. Some are superior choices but so are some pachanoi. So far its harder to identify the best pachanoi clones.

My bet is KK242 has strong and weak forms both within what Knize recognizes as KK242.

People sharing info and trading cuttings is how this scenario needs to unfold.

If the whole community is involved we have far more chance of success than if a few people are working alone.

What generally happens is people find something that works for them and they drop the process of exploration and instead start to focus on propagating and developing a good working relationship that ally.

Probably the best approach for an individual I might add.

People also tend to become really quiet about it when they find the ones that really work. This is perhaps a good strategy for survival on some levels but works against us all since everyone is required to repeat the same groundwork in that picture and most people wind up with ineffectual clone lines they invest a lot into propagating and disseminating.

Obtaining plants sold under given names is often less important than obtaining clones of proven cuttings. Same story with seeds. If planting a lot of seeds, a thorough bioassay survey of the progeny will still be required to select for the best clone lines.

On the subject of hybrids, F1 evaluation may yield the occasional surprises but its the next lot of crosses (F1XF1) that will be the most capable of creating new hybrids with good potencies.

If you find something good, intensively propagate it and give it to or trade it with everyone you know; users and nonusers alike.

Getting the best clones growing in as many places as you can is what can change the future.

I would further suggest that if people grow cacti for sacramental purposes they eliminate (ie get rid of, sell or give away) all weak clones and focus on ones they know work for them. Clones should be grown to a point where bioassays (note this is plural) can be performed to permit the benefit of continuing to grow each line to be assessed.

Why waste soil, pots, money, labor and garden space growing something for use which is not useful?

If your plants are purely ornamental please ignore the above.

Extrapolated data:

Icaros material is reliably active with the 35-50 gram range producing results approximating 500 mg of pure alkaloid. 25 gm is nicely perceptible.

Of course I can only assume that all of his dried product is fairly homogenous in potency within this range but so far this does seem to be the case.

1% means there is 1 gram per 100 grams dried weight which is the minimum range suggested by the above.

0.05% is a more typical range for dried peruvianus flesh.

Icaros told me they use only the outer parts and inspection of the material supports this.

Published reports:

Cruz Sánchez, Guillermo (1948) Estudio Farmacologico de la Opuntia cylindrica. Thesis. Insituto de Farmacologia y Terapeutica Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos. Lima.

Flores G., José (2000) “Estudio Químico del cactus San Pedro (Echinopsis pachanoi Britton & Rose).” Thesis para optar el título profesional de Licenciado en Ciencias con Mencion en Quimica, Universidad Nacional de Ingeniería, Facultad de Ciencias, December 2000. 103 pages. [This work was mentioned in Reyna & Flores 2001 as their source of data but we have not been able to obtain a copy of it.]

Gonzales Huerta, Ines (1960) Revista del Viernes Médico [Lima] 11 (1): 133-137. “Identificación de la Mescalina Contenida en el Trichocereus pachanoi (San Pedro)”

Reyna Pinedo, Víctor & Flores Garcés, José (2001) Quepo 15: 28-37. “El uso del “San Pedro” (Echinopsis pachanoi) en medicina tradicional peruana.”

Gonzales Huerta and Cruz Sanchez both commented on using only the outer greem parts.

[Rev]

So if were were say wandering around the andes looking at different cati all over..

it would be a good idea to take the outer green tissue from many clones overtime - providing they were of sufficient age size and health

dry it to give dry weight and record

then bioassay (h.M as reference? 80g?)

and remark on subjective quality of each type

going back for pups of the good ones

build up a collection of these for hybridisations using the rest as grafting stocks

is this a good plan in that situation do you think?

[spunwhirllin]

Is there perhaps a simple,yet cheap scientific method to test these plants for content rather than bioassay?

Hplc tests for the presense only,correct?

This method does not determine the quantity,correct?

[Gunter]

Is there private qualitative and quantitative testing available? I suppose that publication should be reserved somewhat, however I do see the problem of absolute secrecy.

I understand that some maintain the outlook that they acquired their ideal selection through a process of reciprocity. It might not be easy for them to think that others deserve the chance to abuse what is in effect a friend. A living organism with a relationship with one all its own.

A question I often ask myself is, Does the exploration and development in these cacti promote the stigma that Lophophora has received in the USA?

How can the community (so to speak) protect themselves and these cacti in the face of an uncertain future? And at the same time conserve, preserve, study, explore and learn more about these amazing Andean species?

[ 10. May 2005, 18:54: Message edited by: Archaea ]

[Flip]

I believe that publication is a bad idea.

The more disorganized and lower tech we appear the better.

Believe it or not, these boards are the number one source

of information for the "anti-drug" authorities.

We can't give the impression of potentional success.

It's very likely that they're not only daily lurkers but also thread

starters and posters as well.

I'm sure someone's reading this and thinking about their next promotion.

It's a double edge sword... indeed.

Therefore :Discretion is the key

If we say that the goal of any cacti crossings is for something dubious

it's not smart at all.

We should talk about robustness and health of the plant vs "contents"

or continue to refer to journal papers for data.

like some people tried to earlier.

But most importantly any such project should keep itself low key.

I can imagine someone saying this is a international conspiricy to "manufacture".

(imho) Any project should be as decentralized as much as possible.

This will be both for our individual's safety as well as for other reasons

(This includes posting all overt information on any board or fourm)

 

quote:

---

A question I often ask myself is, Does the exploration and development

 

in these cacti promote the stigma that Lophophora has received in the USA?

---

If I understand your question, The answer is YES!

All such "stigma" is directly related to the anti drug efforts.

There is a direct correlation between popularity" and efforts to crush it's source.

in a sense,

by publicising Trichocereus sp.. cacti -we're advocating their illegality.

From what i understand, L.W. plants are currently endangered in the United States

and should qualify for federal protection but are unable to get such status

due to their history of use and continued harvesting by the reckless.

The authorities would love for them to go extinct in the USA

Conversely this only increases the demand, mystique and status

among the druggie status set.

 

quote:

---

How can the community (so to speak) protect themselves

 

and these cacti in the face of an uncertain future?

---

Look at what happened to the hive.

Much talk and info traded there... then people got too comfortable and talked too openly.

wtf?, publishing photographs of their labs?!?!

they got busted and the case was backworked to incrimidate

the hive and its operators.

such evidence was surely used to help incrimidate strike

by (at the very least) tarnish his character in court.

Further back in time, look at what the Central American indians did.

Look at how mexican mushroom use survived.

They (shamans) kept quiet and masked themselves

in the facade of the oppressors manner and "religion".

Those that made themselves known were tortured, killed

and everything else, either burned or destroyed.

The cacti will be safe as long as people aren't stupid,

running at the mouth and appear to be upstanding citizens.

Again, Discretion is the key

It would not hurt (imho) if people on all the web forums

understood and stopped talking quite so much

(present company excluded).

guess whos included?

Such talk and marketing is (imo) pushing the illegality

of certain plants in the USA and elsewhere... forward.

Aussies or americans should not require any examples...

If people stopped buying (quick fixes) from different shops

or commodification of plant products (plant items for sale)

and staried personal gardens instead ...

the pressure would be greatly lessened / the likelyhood of criminalization.

One serious upside would be the increasing of the likelyhood

of locating a very healthy and robust cultivar to trade among collectors.

and wouldn't that be nice...

[ 17. May 2005, 00:53: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Gunter]

Good insight flip!

I think I am gonna work on a schema for protective coloration measures. Its the technique of adopting superficial elements of the culture that threatens by the culture that is threatened. It is similar to the initial incorporation of catholic saints in Voudun and New World Shamanistic ceremony including Meso and South American entheogenic healing ceremonies.

[ 12. May 2005, 21:03: Message edited by: Archaea ]

[Pisgah]

What? Like naming a cactus St. Peter...

F*ck paranoia!!! Talk openly. Speak your mind.

Just remember to drill people that post stupid questions, and flame people who ask for help with illegal acts.

Intelligence and determination are the key.

[Pisgah]

BTW Archaea, kudos for quoting Mary Poppins...

[gusto]

It would be tragic if we were forced into inaction by paranoia. It would likewise be foolhardy to act as though the public discussions here and elsewhere could not influence the future legal status of allies that many hold dear.

I doubt that a consensus can be reached on this, but short sighted action is seldom prudent.

[Flip]

I am not advocating being paranoid,

just awareness of several things and long term goals.

I do disagree with some peoples penchant of

Waving a freak flag around and shouting "Screw the man"

is seemingly very attractive to certain people

that type of behavior is only a childish rebellion... imnsho

all that they accomplish making themselves a very easy target.

but all of that is for another thread.

lets just say that there are ways to communicate and talk about things

that are superior to being so surface level.

Freedom of speech does not equate to freedom from intelligence

please lets move forward...

can everyone agree that the best thing to do is find

and cultivate cacti from healthy stock?

I also suggest that we each encourage the growing of cacti

from the good seed whenever we can.

from that seed grown plants the strongest and healthiest

are crossbred with others with the goal of producing a cacti

that has these qualities (in no certain order):

1) a vigorous grower,

2) reliable rooter from cuttings

3) penchant for branching and pups

4) easy to flower (different colors) and produce seed highly viable seed

5) Resistant to fungal and bacteria infection

6) Producing a high level of chemical defenses

(to ward off insect and pet damage).

7) Highly attractive (perhaps spineless)

How do those sound?

anyone care to add to this?

[ 13. May 2005, 20:13: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Gunter]

8) Genetically homogenous for desirable traits IE it breeds true.

Also on #6, it should be clean so to speak, as in one major anti-pest chemical produced in signifigant quantity so as to provide the maximum pest resistance without wasting energy on producing other alkaloids. IMHO Pachanoi often seems to be flawed in this regard.

[ 14. May 2005, 15:38: Message edited by: Archaea ]

[Flip]

Alright here's the revised list:

1) a vigorous grower,

2) reliable rooter from cuttings

3) penchant for branching and pups

4) easy to flower (different colors) and produce seed highly viable seed

5) Resistant to fungal and bacteria infection

6) Producing a high level of chemical defenses

(to ward off insect and pet damage).

7) Highly attractive (perhaps spineless)

8) Genetically homogenous for desirable traits IE it breeds true.

well thats quite a list.

we certaintly don't need them all but it's a list of goals

some being much more important than others....

Next step:

Focus upon the Trichocereus sp.

Identify and locate plants that already have some any these traits

that will cross breed (Trichocereus)

There are already people that are collecting these clones

and conducting their own cerrossing attempts.

We need more individuals doing this

As K Trout pointed out,

We need a large selection of good plants to choose from.

Such a diverse pool will both speed up the process and increase success.

Either we get seed from a few good collection companies in the natural ranges

and /or we get choice cuttings (if they're locally known) sent to us.

The seed collection will be cheaper and perhaps a wider range of individuals.

the collection of cuttings will be more expensive

and I would think that only proven unique plants should be sent.

So the first steps are to Both order seed

from the seed company mentioned by trout (above)

by all members capable to cultivation.

and locate all proven cuttings (subjective or lab analysis)

and propigate those asap among different people.

Third, collect, number and trade pollen of different plants

and resulting seeds if any.

All growers should keep some form of records to

avoid wasted efforts

source of seed, cuttings history of crossings dates etc.

How does this sound so far?

[ 17. May 2005, 01:00: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Gunter]

[Rev]

yep

tho i dont think genetic homogneity is desirable or achievable.

Species that are obligate outcrossers like the ceroids usually dont do well when inbred

and they are veg propagated so it doesnt matter

several of those traits suggested are going to be alot easier to find in a hybrid than a pedigree.

Im all for hybridisation as we are in effect trying to create new cultigens not preserve species

[ 16. May 2005, 12:36: Message edited by: Rev ]

[Gunter]

Hmm, it sounds like quite the commitment.

I would prefer to both preserve and breed, such seems implied in preservation of living populations by cultivation, as opposed to preservation of germplasm.

[ 16. May 2005, 18:43: Message edited by: Archaea ]

[Flip]

Agreed Rev,

Once we get something really desireable.

it should be propagated the living hell out of.

The "perfect form" is our own definition "not theirs"

From there people can work with seeds and additional crossings

perhaps into other species afterwards

Even the creation of a chimera plant (indeed interesting)

at times like this I wish I got my degree in Genetics... "Sigh"

Archaea,

Yes I figure it's going to be a decades more time

Mind you, we've already collectively done more than decades worth of work.

But the time factor should not deter anyone from contributing at all.

If you're going to be growing caci might as well make some

room for the best guess seed.

Cacti are very low maintainance (don't take much room)

and the rewards are valid, long lasting and significant

Remember it's a total effort of many individuals

it can progress very quickly with the right people

Many people are growing cacti from seed and good clones

If all individuals (noobs included) are encouraged to cultivate seed

in the hope of getting something really unique

then we're all benefiting as a result.

and they get to tag their name on to it

(read glory status for as long as you live)

This type of collective project model

is what made silicon valley and the home PC revolution

not to mention the freaking web and legends out of some.

Side Project:

Yes, If we can get a good sample of the plants from the wilds

That would be a excellent move and should be done asap.

I am willing to throw in $100.00 USD to any such collection project.

With the stated goals of braving the mountains, rebels (?) and whatever else...

to settle both identification issues with the broad species as well as,

locate and export prized specimens for preservation puropses.

Some attractive clones can even be provided for sale

(gardener/landscaping) to recoup expendatures

and further the greater project through various vendors

It's Very Clear we cannot rely upon individuals

such as Karl Knize for such collections.

Will MSS be willing to take a expedition if funding is located?

it's worth at least one book... perhaps two.

Is there anyone In S. America that can be of qualified assistance?

Thoughts?

[ 17. May 2005, 00:42: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Gunter]

Yeah, I resolved myself to such a project some time ago, fully aware of the time involved.

I am down for mutual procuration efforts as well, however I am interested in a trip for seeds and photographs, as well as GPS readings. Maybe even frozen tissue samples of living plants for genetic analysis.

Herbarium deposits are possible too, though I think outdated and replaceable by other biological technologies for gathering referential data.

We would have to be careful so that people cooperate and don't think that the cacti or people are being exploited.

I am looking to set aside some land and work on gardens for preservation of living populations, as well as breeding and study projects.

Also IMO we should add 'as cold hardy as possible' to the list.

Thus I would also be particularly interested in high altitude collections of cuttings and seeds.

I think a fund might be started for the project. Not sure how to go about that myself, but someone should if its legit I'll donate.

[Flip]

As am I

However, it's going to be much cheaper if we can get the seeds

and cuttings sent out to us VS taking time off work,

Traveling and doing all the legwork

Not to mention language and trust issues.

I think that the best thing we can do is collectively "reach out"

and get someone down there to work with us on this.

failing in this, a field trip may then be required.

Still we should strongly promote the planting of seeds from valid sources

over commerical and advertised cuttings.

I don't know about "cold hardy as possible"

as they can already take some snow and frost without damage.

A blizzard and -30F may be another story and I don't think

that they can be adapted to such extreme conditions (both desert heat and deep snow)

[ 22. May 2005, 17:15: Message edited by: Flip ]