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to me... a bunch of Trichocereus validus , am I wrong? - micromegas' plant

t.validus.jpg

This one labelled valida , I believe in order to keep 2 clones separately named as so .... reminds me of a lumberjackus on steroids!!!

-purely by haircut alone though ... - Fields plant

IMGP2712.jpg

http://trichoseriousethnobotany.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/trichocereus-valida.html

and on to a progeny from possibly the same cactus... if not, then the other clone there...

(personal fave cactus pic on the planet for starting it off -it being : the re-ignition point of my recent obsession with validus) - brettloth's plant and possible origin from his truely amazing site: Trichoseriousethnobotany

IMGP0006.JPGIMGP2772.JPGIMGP2979.JPG

the spines kind of curve off to the right looking at the front of the cactus ...judging by this arial shot so long as it's not in reverse

-giving the impression they're curving off to the left if you look at the top half of the pic, which is blatantly the back of the cactus

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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I use "validus" to denote a type of large tersheckii-oid plant that is found in Australia that looks distinct from other large girthed plants I have found and is easily identifiable within australia. I don't really relate it to any wild plant and find the conversation utterly confusing.

There are several tersheckii/pasacana types in old gardens in south oz and many of them don't look entirely like wild species I have ever seen (although i did find a small forest of quintessential pasacanas once). Some of the owners hybridised these plants themselves way back in the day.

In addition to the differences in spination which is clear in the photos below, the validus for me is typified by having rather "round" rib formation (when hydrated) compared to the tersheckiis I saw in northern argentina (which has more numerous and more triangular ribs), as well as having less ribs and being less angular generally as well as not as fat (although validus gets VERY fat, the tersheckiis I saw in argentina were nothing short of colossal), they don't look that similar at all but I'm not sure what that means other than validus is a specific cultivar that came to horticulture at some point by some means.

I also watched the validus video thunder posted in the cactus video thread and saw with interest the two headed column on the plant at fields. I have three separate tips (three separate plants) of validus that have displayed this trait and if the validus in oz are all clones of the same original plant I think this may well be a diagnostic feature.

There is another curious diagnostic feature that needs some investigation as well...

Since thunder already put some photos of validus, here's a terk from northern agentina and my validus from the first photo all grown up...

post-1521-0-43365300-1403418604_thumb.jp

post-1521-0-81667800-1403418620_thumb.jp

post-1521-0-43365300-1403418604_thumb.jpg

post-1521-0-81667800-1403418620_thumb.jpg

Edited by Micromegas
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I use "validus" to denote a type of large tersheckii-oid plant that is found in Australia that looks distinct from other large girthed plants I have found and is easily identifiable within australia. I don't really relate it to any wild plant and find the conversation utterly confusing.

There are several tersheckii/pasacana types in old gardens in south oz and many of them don't look entirely like wild species I have ever seen (although i did find a small forest of quintessential pasacanas once). Some of the owners hybridised these plants themselves way back in the day.

In addition to the differences in spination which is clear in the photos below, the validus for me is typified by having rather "round" rib formation (when hydrated) compared to the tersheckiis I saw in northern argentina (which has more numerous and more triangular ribs), as well as having less ribs and being less angular generally as well as not as fat (although validus gets VERY fat, the tersheckiis I saw in argentina were nothing short of colossal), they don't look that similar at all but I'm not sure what that means other than validus is a specific cultivar that came to horticulture at some point by some means.

I also watched the validus video thunder posted in the cactus video thread and saw with interest the two headed column on the plant at fields. I have three separate tips (three separate plants) of validus that have displayed this trait and if the validus in oz are all clones of the same original plant I think this may well be a diagnostic feature.

There is another curious diagnostic feature that needs some investigation as well...

Since thunder already put some photos of validus, here's a terk from northern agentina and my validus from the first photo all grown up...

Thank you so much!!!

, this clears a lot of the dust i couldnt see through and yes what an amaaaazing world class specimen :wub:

and what an amazing terscheckii too , how old do they have to be to get that big?

terbo kudos!

how much age gap is between the two pics? and how fast did it grow please?

also at what age did it flower and have you tested any of the seeds yet?

or grown any out?

I'll bet it spawns some of the prettiest offspring the planet ever saw!

not a wild one? now that is priceless info ...

I wonder ....

who created the Trichocereus validus and what they used to create it

and why "they" (or something even worse like red clumping validus - which is probably grandiflorus ) are being sold as wild validus seeds in the modern day

would this deem a true validus plant in some eyes... "an echinopsis hybrid" ? / trichocereus hybrid

and why the heck google images isnt showing real validus !!! -edit- is now :)

-is validus not the starting point fascination of every cacteer ever .....that didnt start with the lopho fascination?

and how many could be bred for aesthetics that literally run round beating everyone who looked at it with a flag that read VALIDUS

whilst bellowing its own name, .... and "who dyu think youre calling a terscheckii?" ; inbetween ,

-(like your plants do micromegas)

maybe when we talk of a terscheckii , wer'e possibly talking about one of validus's parents?

someone needs to cross lumberjackus with terscheckii :wub:

and the peruvianus clan too

and scop ,

-edited for appauling grammar, twice - 4 times, but once to correct how many times it had really been edited too which might actually be a miscalculation also

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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I'm not sure why Kaktusy would list both those as being "good for grafting".

http://www.kaktusy.com/userfiles/cenik2.txt

http://www.kaktusy.cz/eshop/printable.php?productID=68886

Location alone would remove the first as T. tacaquerensis...maybe T. tarajensis?

The second location would indicate T. terscheckii (no T. tacaquirensis grow there). He's a plant from there...

attachicon.gifArgentina Cuenta de Miranda - La Rioja.jpg

Well I hope your spidey senses help you find whatever plant you want to call T. validus, but there is little doubt in my mind it's a quest for nothing more than other well recognized species that for whatever reason or other had been labeled as T. validus at some point in the past.

~Michael~

since learning from micromegas , i can finally understand this

not about the grafting .... i thought all trichos were master graft material ....

but about the wild factor ....

especially if they arent a wild "species"/type/clone/plant/validus/butnotquiteterscheckii

lol Trichocereus butnotquiterscheckii does have a nice ring to it tho

and maybe theyre using "grafting material" as an excuse for the lesser-likely to be correctly-ID'd ones? lol

either way this thread, mainly due to micromegas so far, thankfully; is exposing some of the myths and clearing some smokes for me ...

i hope it is for any others too

spidey senses are good for somethings i guess?

cactaceal ID "feel" might just be one of them

how do we know validus isnt a species extinct in the wild ?....

and the only living relics are in oz and california? ....

oh yeah and a few botanical gardens

i wonder if there's someone out there who has seen a wild validus

or has deeper info on how it may have come about via horticulture

it got to being , somehow...

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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Backeberg said the plant he understood to be validus (Monvilla) was long know in collections, and his "?" regarding location meant that he wasn't aware of where it was collected. I've long wondered if Backeberg always made attempts to determine if a particular "species" had naturally reproducing populations of similar plants throughout a location, which if they did could at least mean we could be lead to believe the particular plant in question was a local subspecies, or if on the other hand he simply found a plant, possibly in a yard, that he then, in taking notice of differences from other Trichocereus, decreed it a species. A plant of unknown provenance could have been a hybrid of a local plant with a possible import to the region. We do understand that some of these early cactus explores were interested in decreeing names for their own interests, and this could be the case with "T. valida"; that it doesn't have naturally occurring populations of self reproducing plants, and therefore, as Anderson would agree, isn't a species at all.

~Michael~

Edit for grammar.

Edited by M S Smith
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but at least its a plant and exists and can be grown and loved , whether a species or not

this plant seriously teaches hardcore

and its lovely to learn from someone who's seen validus grow , and very well at that...

-and from super wild location expertise like yours :)

also... i wonder now what would be their motive in using validus?,

I thought they wanted their own names on as many plants as poss

validus means strong/ of worth... , lol Trichocereus strong x] ..

i wonder which gardens backberg frequented?

or how many in europe more specific

now to study more classifications like the word "species", and how loosely or tightly they may be adhered to .....

although I do imagine it's spirit will be rather unique

:) , thanks michael, I knew u rawked really

found these on here http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk/Cacti/finder.php?Plant=trichocereus+validus

Field number: KK 1418
Collector: Karel Kníže
Species: trichocereus validus
Locality: Potosi to Tupiza, Bolivia
Altitude: 3000m
Date:
Notes:

Field number: LH 495
Collector: Ladislav Horáček
Species: trichocereus validus
Locality: Atocha, Bolivia
Altitude:
Date:
Notes:

Field number: RBC 150
Collector: Ramirez Brothers Cacti (Luis Alberto, Juan H. Ramírez Pinto)
Species: trichocereus validus
Locality: Santa Ana, Cercado, Tarija, Bolivia

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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I have seen a couple photos of "validus" that looked slightly different to the typical terscheckii, but most of what I have seen would lead me to conclude that validus is just a variation of terscheckii. Although I haven't had the pleasure of seeing any of these in person Nice plant either way. If I had room (or could grow in the ground) I would definitely get an adult "validus" and terscheckii.

Here is a "T. validus" grafted seedling from Sacred Succulents seed stock that I have. Interesting looking plant. Will be grafting it to a bigger stock since the pere it's on has turned white and because I'm impatient.

post-12824-0-98177400-1403505884_thumb.j post-12824-0-43017600-1403505927_thumb.j post-12824-0-52095600-1403505950_thumb.j post-12824-0-29084000-1403505973_thumb.j

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post-12824-0-43017600-1403505927_thumb.jpg

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post-12824-0-29084000-1403505973_thumb.jpg

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:wub: kyooot I wonder if the different validus clones already have a name each?

or if its ok to name new ones , like I notice the echinopsis hybridisers of uk and germany seem to

i havent delved much into usa side of that cept for finally realising shick was from usa the other day

I wonder how many times those guys bred validus into their work....

made me think of a shick hybrid "oberon" , theres a tiny one on ebay

or a bit like a baby brevispinis

lol , i must be falling deeper in love with cacti by the hour!

arent lil tricho's the prettiest thing ever

or growing tricho tips.... le sigh :)

i can see what ceres means now, about a parental vibe kicking in about cacti lol

and its great to see it from the kids too about their little flowering cacti especially since i taught them they could make hybrids

and if they had 2 seed grown specimens making true species seed ...

i wish my dad wd've been able to show me the cement pollination technique before i ht 10 yrs old

I still have to learn grafting myself before I can teach them that .... awesome skill you got there mate!

i wouldnt have the balls to graft a validus yet , *takes hat off to ya"

... maybe by the time I learn to graft , I will be grafting a bit of validus onto maybe a fat tacaquirensis if they grow as fast for me ...

-as i learn from mutant they can really go for it ... growth-speed wise

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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You really should learn how to graft, top grafting onto Pereskiopsis is really easy once you get the hang of it, usually with 100% efficiency. You can shave off 5 years of growth in 5 months, especially for trichs. And of course its the only way to save albino seedlings when you get one. I recently grafted an albino tacaquirensis and it took, cant wait to see how it turns out!

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The plant in the link at the top of this page is the one from Poots.

Here are my two from Sacred Succulents.

T. validus

post-12335-0-45499600-1403711088_thumb.j

T. validus? NL52509a

post-12335-0-05335600-1403711151_thumb.j

post-12335-0-45499600-1403711088_thumb.jpg

post-12335-0-05335600-1403711151_thumb.jpg

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Hi solaritea! Great seeing a seedling of the ss validus. Neil logans plant is from the taquimbalensis/tacaquirensis group!

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You really should learn how to graft, top grafting onto Pereskiopsis is really easy once you get the hang of it, usually with 100% efficiency. You can shave off 5 years of growth in 5 months, especially for trichs. And of course its the only way to save albino seedlings when you get one. I recently grafted an albino tacaquirensis and it took, cant wait to see how it turns out!

I'm sure I'll catch up with you guys soon on grafting , especially after seeing the toothpick grafting on EG's site

re peres'

my first ever pereskiopsis that i bought about 3 months ago are still only 4 inches -edit- a few are 6", i bought 10 , and i was planning on propogating them into more before grafting

so its just a matter of time and was already planned long ago :)

I will be practicing on something non validus like till i get confidence

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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Well well....

I have a few thoughts and a couple questions, mostly to the people that own the "validus", Getafix, Micromegas [Echinopsis valida Monv. - what is seen in Backebergs photo) but also Smith. All comments are more than welcomed.

1. Reading Trout about "validus" I read about the tendency of each areole to produde downwarding spines, from the areole's lower half, still nobody seem to be using this as creterion. I am not sure if terscheckiis or pasacanas do this in maturity, as mine are too young still to tell. But I know taquimbalensis does that, that is grows spines twice for each areole, the second time round it does the funky wilka spines in the upper part. You might tell me, hey lots of trichos do this, my KK339 even grows some 3 cm centrals in old areoles. BUT, this seems to be one of the determining IDing characteristics of the validus clone: downwarding spines and relatively sparce at that.

2. Am I wrong that , Michael you have pointed out validus is actually a terscheckioid, but also you have said that it is (or might be) linked with the taquimbalensis/tacaquirensis/werdermanianus complex... but these are two different complexes... no?

Michael also said:

T. validus seed is often grown out to T. tacaquirensis plants, possibly since the seed was simply collected from columnar Trichocereus from southeast Bolivia, the main one, or single one with the exception of the now denuded T. scopulicola, beingT. tacaquirensis.

Some times I wonder how come I am the only one that thinks such stuff:

Here's a hypothesis... since I heard validus is linked with the faster growing taq/tac it clicked in me.. Also the taquimbalensis I have grown have very roundish ribs.

Validus (monv) is a hybrid between a taq/tac and a spineless scop, or a hybrid between terscheckii and spineless scop, seeing how they occur in the same areas. (Genius??? I know , I know....)

either of these hypotheses would explain the sparcity of the areoles and few not strong spines (as in mother species), as well as speed of growth (in the case of terschXscop because of the scop - in the case of taq X scop because of both, could even make a taq go even faster)

now, why there are not found pupulations?? maybe they didn't find them yet, or maybe this was a human hybrid grown once or few times... thus it ended up in horticulture... it could even be an ozzie hybrid, like Micromegas said, as I am not convinced this is the same with zellys one... does it occur outside oz?

3. Nobody seems to wanna comment on the speed of growth? because mine (and THs) , which indeed looks somewhat between terscheckii and validus grew very fast, like a taq, maybe faster... And increased its girth amazingly much, and also got very roundish ribs, unlike the terscekiis and pasacanas.

Also, is the "true" validus indeed the fields validus (as getafix says) because I think I have seen 2 cacti under the same name Fields validus...

well thats it for now folks

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apparently there are 2 fields validus clones ...

if they arent "true" validus after all... or a form of it

I wonder if theyre a hybrid of terscheck and a true validus? terscheckiiXvalidus or validusXterscheckii

if so.... :unsure: it would mean terschalidus or valideckii would be ok to use :P

......nah actually my real worry was that :o

this would make scopulicola have to go to either a rank 3 in my fave cacti list!

-or a joint second with "terscheckXvalidus" (if thats what fields validus might be) :rolleyes:

there's just something about that limb of brettloth's from fields .... with the big flower bud... :wub:

also reminds me of some cartoon cactus from somethn i must have seen way back lol with a sherrif's badge on it (in the cartoon/comic)

-but then again , so do colossus and juuls

... :) isnt it cool when the worst of your worries are something as little as what a cactus's name should be ...

bout time life started to rawk !

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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hehehe man you are definately something!

the name terschalidus sounds very funny to my ears, very cool!

you are right in that ours validoid has a crown very reminiscent of the true validus, but the spines dont match, but they dont match with terschkii either, f.e. in colour or number, as in overall density...

but it seems like the 'true validus' is a cultivar, not a species...

so there might be the 'true validus' and then some other clones, that might be like it because they came from a similar cross that the true validus came from, or they are children of the true validus...

I have an additional note I took since my last post.

My biggest seed grown terscheckii somewhat 6 yo, is showing this habit now: first it does spines from the lower half or the areole and after wards from the upper.

I also wonder if the extreme speed of growth I noticed in my supposed validus was due to transplanting a very root bound cactus to a relatively big container with good soil... Thus I should see if my terscheckii can do the same - that is almost double its width.... (its already putting up ribs after the transplant)

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:innocent_n:

children of the true validus sounds like a baddass band name too

look forward to updates on the fattt terscheckii, any pics on the site of it?

I darent check the cutting for roots yet ...... just in case there arent any x]

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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if this was adressing to me (fat terscheckii) , I will take a shot of the crown next time to show the +2 in the rib count.

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cant really see, as theres no closeup, but I tend to believe habitat pics are not ideal for IDing purposes. The crown, new growth and close ups should be at least shown, I think, so as to be able to risk an ID or a guess.

is the different flower colour supposed to tell a different species?

hey Gunter you used to have several of the fatty Trichos, how about giving us an update mate?

Edited by mutant
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What are these (Bolivian I believe) plants?

top/ "tip only" flowering suggests werdermannianus to me :) beauties too!

I love the difference in the two flowers too..

however, I see a tip flowering tacaquirensis on Germany's wikipedia , looks kinda similar to me to the wildie on the right

Trichocereus_tacaquirensis_01.jpg

... but then again , muahahahaaaa, I also found this on Germany's wikipedia too.. which I wanted to add to this thread anyway for lookie likeyness in the validus direction..

Echinopsis_bridgesii_%28Jardin_des_Plant

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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I cannot update, I lost all my plants to a severe freeze. I am ordering seeds, i went from thousands of plants to none overnight last fall.

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fuck, very sorry to hear that!

hope you start a new collection in no time

I am sure you can get some freebie seed from cool sabers! ;)

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update on the Trichocereus 'looks more like validus than terscheckii-and some validus for that matter'-mutant

(finally came up with a label I can feel at ease over :innocent_n: )

gallery_14443_734_256838.jpg

so I dared to check for roots but nuthn yet... finger's x'd maybe by spring time...

more dehydrated it gets the more it looks valid...

probably my fave specimen of the whole lot too :wub:

mind you I never thought werdermannianus would be on the verge for taking the lead as fattest cactus here

gallery_14443_734_77738.jpg

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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also I was very fortunate indeed to aquire this sexy heifer ..

gallery_14443_734_10196.jpg

most gratefully indeed too, I'm told it's a mutt but hey, it's beautiful and possibly also my fave specimen of the whole lot too : ]

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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