Can creative people survive in a jungle of numbers?

[jay6785]

People are usually referred to as 'creative' or 'logical'. One is good with numbers, the other with abstract thought.

Is there a huge war, genocide going on right under our noses? Have logical people at some point taken over, wiping creative people back, putting them in gaols, mental homes and medicating them until they follow the numbers that the logical human calculators believe show your I.Q?

Are people born creative or logical, or is this a taught behaviour?

How have we got to a point in society where someones intelligence is not based thier self worth, contributions or intelligence, but how well they calculate numbers in schools?

It is known that westerners do best on IQ tests, which are soley judged on logic. Therefore, a low IQ means you are stupid. Therefore if you are not logical, you are an idiot.

Maybe racism has nothing to do with race, all these years we believed that white people were wiping out blacks through genocide and slavery because of the colour of their skin. Mayber it was something more sinister and in our face all along. The difference is now we find black people with amazing logic skills, and show them off to say 'see, black people are intelligent too!'. But are they really dumb if they are not logical? But maybe it was never the black people we were attacking. Maybe it was not the colour of the skin, but the make up of their brain that was under threat all along!

Why do western and asian cultures place some much importance on logic over creativity?

Maybe tribal cultures had a healthy balance of both creative and logical people, however at some point in our history logical people simply outbred the creative types, which allowed the world to become a place purely designed by logic with no care for anything but numbers.

Even a talented musical artist cannot suceed without a 'manager'. Most modern music is now owned by 'logical' people, who choose people based on how many numbers or returns they get back, on % or demographs they think will buy. Even art is now a numbers game.

Our artists are dirt poor, musicians are owned and modern shamans are 'shizophrenic' or 'crazy'.

Drugs that encourage creativity are illegal, further attacking any artists who wish to use these devine god given tools to further their creativity, keeping those interested creative types in gaols where they belong.

Our schools base intelligence on number exams, and you are 'dumb' if you do not pass. Why if you cannot do maths are you 'dumb'. Why if you are not logical are you 'dumb'?

Creative people are being wiped out, bred out and beaten back into the dark depths of poverty. Life imitates art, imitates life. Therefore once logical people finally deliver the last blow to creative people, after every last one is in jail, starved, bred out or committed suicide because of being a 'stupid failure', who will give our human calculator humans the inspiriation to crunch numbers and build.

Who will stop saying that if you are not logical you are dumb. Who will say even the human who is no good at maths, may be an excellent artist and not 'stupid' because of a low IQ.

Was the hippie movement actually creative types last stand in this war of logic vs creativity.

What do you guys think, in a world where numbers rule and you need to navigate them to surive and prosper 'bills, mortagage, taxes, investing etc.',

Can creative people really survive in a jungle of numbers? What will be the outcome for humanity if they don't? What is 'smart' and 'dumb', is it the ability to be logical or can creativity ever be an accepted form of intelligence.

As racism is judging people on their skin, should we create laws to protect creative people from being called dumb because school fails them. Mindism?

When will society finally realise the genocide and struggle that happens right under our nose that our creative minds endure in this crazy jungle of numbers logical humans have created?

Edited September 30, 2010 by jay6785

[jay6785]

I am far more logical in my thinking I believe as well, just a note that I am not someone with low maths skills having a rant. I fit in really well in the jungle of numbers myself, but am worried this is not the right path for humanity as a whole

Also try and ignore the ranting and bad structure of the discussion

Edited September 30, 2010 by jay6785

[ref1ect1ons]

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Edited September 30, 2010 by ref1ect1ons

[Yeti101]

I've spent a lot of time studying philosophy and logic/reason/rationality. I can tell you, the world is not being overrun by 'logical' people, if it were, things would not be in such a mess. I feel that you are putting forward both a false dichotomy and an appeal to emotion that does nothing to advance your argument or anyone's thinking. If there is a gap between the creative and the logical, it needs to be bridged, which is not what you are doing.

I think I get what you are saying, but isn't that simple. I would argue that the 'drugs that fuel creativity' being illegal is a due to a failure to properly apply logic and reason, not a failure to be creative. Pretty much everything you see as an attack on creative people, I see as an attack on people who actually try to think and act in a logical manner.

That, and logic and creativity are not as divorced as you might think.

[No_One]

Yeti, would you say heteronomic people are what Jay is refering to here when he uses "logical" (only learnt that word last week, wanted to use it, seemed appropriate - )?

Jay, is 49% logical and 51% creative a creative person?

Think of this, creativity produced the items of logic in the first place i.e. ideas, words, language etc. so could logical people be logical without creativity?

[OpticalLight]

 

gooey prickles and prickly goo?

[stiched up]

yeti , how about offering your opinion instead of telling people things ;) your interpretation could be completely different to what is meant ??

i think a lot of racism is also religiously based ,and different religions seem to be just different cultural beliefs however i can see your point about a certain way of thinking being deemed supreme over others ways of thinking

i also think so called creativity could also be a by product of this supreme logic based system therefore wherever there is one there is the other ?

[jay6785]

Thanks guys for replies so far,

Yeti I appreciate your educated view, and it seems the main thing you have an issue with is the idea of creative and logic people being real? I.e you believe you could be a creative logical person and that logic would actually help instead of hinder the causes I mentioned?

Maybe I use the wrong words in my discussion and logic and creative isn't correct, maybe it should be 'number orientated' and 'artisically inclined'? Not sure if you would agree with some points if this was the wording instead of the loose and probaly incorrect 'logic' and 'creative' descriptions.

No_One, I do think that people can be a mix of both. I was discussing with someone if that possibly if these traits are genetic, then if a really artistically inclined person mated with a really number orientated person, it would create the perfect hybrid? I.e your 51 49 idea.

OpticalLight, I used to have a cool alan watts cartoon about social phobia, and another about a flying head

stiched up, Yes I believe while this battle of minds if it even exists, there are other battles going on as well such as race wars, wars over religion etc. But that this mind war never gets a mention, and I seem to think it may exist to some point even if very faintly.

Would like to hear any more thoughts you guys have on this subject,

Edited October 1, 2010 by jay6785

[bℓσωηG]

It's true people are different, and that's great... as it takes all types to make the world go round.

Unfortunately the education system is really only geared one way, left brained .

Logic is taught and seen as intelligence , creativity and imagination is seen as unimportant and silly.

Instead of allowing creative expression and development students are made to follow methods of logic and set ways to achieve end results... who is to say that this is absolute ?

Where are the dream makers , the story tellers the myth holders?

Enough already of the conditioning and suppression of consciousness connecting , the making grey of human colour ....more crazy ideas, more manic laughter

[mud]

Parts thinking creates more parts.

Words create 'objects' out of processes.

Creativity, is like the divine beauty of

a partly random/not fully associated, or sequence

or rythm of the expression of numbers.

The viewing mind, sees only mostly what it alreay knows.

Reframing, expanding or collapsing perspectives

and sharing larger and larger ones

might not even see the 'problems' at hand.

So what else is there?

Nothing

[Yeti101]

Perhaps I did react a little strongly (thanks, stiched up, for pointing that out) - I was a bit grumpy as I'd just finished sorting out a work problem instead of my preferred option of chilling out in front of Bondi Vet with a cup of peppermint tea.

I'm not sure that what jay6785 or blowng or mud are saying is not true. I just can't stand over-simplifications. For the most part I don't think that logic or creativity are inherently good or bad - it's our use of them that make them one way or the other. Creativity, when channeled through propaganda, can in extreme cases contribute to fascism - just as much as the cold 'logic' of genocide and war.

One might argue that the 'true' purpose of creativity is subverted and abused when it is forced to inhabit the structures of advertising and commerce. But is logic responsible for that? Human greed, like many (if not all) of our flaws, has elements of both in play. Think of the selfishly and irrationally selective (and hence flawed) application of logic of modern economics and the exploitation of the creative via our desires for beauty and ability to make others believe (just to name a few things). It isn't logic or creativity that motivates us to do such things. Are motivations, such as greed or our constant need for 'more', that lead us to such sad behavior a failure of logic or a failure of creativity? I would say that it is a failure of both.

Have a good long weekend people!

[Teljkon]

asdfsdf

Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[No_One]

Nice one Mud -

Jay, I reckon you're question is really would an unorthodox person survive in a culture of orthodoxy, fish out of water type stuff - I think that all depends on whether the dude can hack the challenge(s) he'll face that the majority won't while meeting/satisfying the requirements of survival.

Survival is what needs to be worked out/defined i.e. a specific health status, quality of life experince, sustainability and all that - the "whats" we are chasing after.

Edited October 1, 2010 by No_One

[caludia]

nice post Jay....can i be frank?

a quick venture online shows the prevalence of aspies (look at fucking Wikipedia for the LORD's sake!), unnecessary hyperlogic, narrow technocratic viewpoints

it's borrrrrring!

look at the way ppl dissect opinions by doing that "quote" BS and replying to each element of a post like it was an academic treatise

pisses me off no end, and i am just 35 yrs old. Fucking imagine what a crotchety git i will be at 70. Lung cancer cant come too soon

Go to hell!

modern life was always rubbish but its starting to stink more with each passing year

information my foot. Singularity BS...

or if it's a singularity god help the rest of us.

analyze THAT

[devance]

http://www.cutoutpro.com/newphysics/

I a biological feel guy but the math people have something to offer.

The triangle of newtonian physics could be a learning tool but simply mechanistic.

[ref1ect1ons]

a quick venture online shows the prevalence of aspies (look at fucking Wikipedia for the LORD's sake!), unnecessary hyperlogic, narrow technocratic viewpoints

it's borrrrrring!

You're talking about anal people, not necessarily 'aspies'.

[Distracted]

Psychotics are pretty creative but they're deemed by the statistical psychologists as 'abnormal', they have a 'personality disorder' because they're not like the rest of us.

We're taught to fit in at a very young age and the parts we're not directly taught we pick up by observational learning.

Creative people are 'weird', they stand out and generally people are afraid of that.

To me it's just about pattern recognition... creative people see many many many different patterns in the world whereas for the most part we're only taught to recognise only certain patterns and that the other patterns either aren't there at all or are completely meaningless.

I see myself as a very logical human who is increasingly interested in why other people are so illogical, what makes them like that and how they perceive the world. That's why I take a lot of psychoactives... to see the world in a more creative light, to notice patterns i'd look past every day blindly.

mmm