Casing question

[Coschi]

Hi guys, a few questions regarding a 50/50 casing (verm/peat)

Standard PF cakes will be used

the tek: http://www.shroomery.org/54/50-50-Casing-Tek

Firstly, a casing like this is to essentially create one big flat cake right?

So, about 1/2" of 50/50 wet mix at the bottom, then three inches of cakes on top, then about 3/4" more 50/50 wet mix on top?

Same water as used for the substrate wetting i'm assuming?

This casing should be in a non-translucent container, is a cake backing tray (aluminium or stainless steel) alright?

Once the casing is prepared, put the tray on top of moistened perlite in a tub and give indirect sunlight, that's it?

Regarding the cakes, wait till they are fully colonized and then case? ie: don't induce pinning

Let the mycelium take over the upper casing layer and then pinning starts itself?

Sorry for all the questions, these are just things i'm not entirely sure of

One more, sterilizing the casing material, could the mix be put in a glass jar and sterilized in the same way as the substrate was? I'm assuming so...

thanks

Edit: One more should the cakes be cased or should they just be birthed?? Obviously the objective is higher yield, more flushes, better technique. Not necessarily ease. 6 x 250mL cakes are being colonized at the momo, maybe that'll be too much for the baking tray anyway! Well on that note, does the casing need to finish flush with the top of the container used or can it overflow?

Edited March 14, 2007 by Sphinx

[ENtiTY]

Heya Sphinx

Havern't tried casing as yet but I can help you out on a couple of points from what I've read.

The casing container should be of an opaque material other wise you will get pinning at the sides of the case. You could also opacify a clear container to acheive the same thing by taping the outside of the container with clothtape or something similar.

The peat/verm should be sterilized and idealy Ph adjusted, although from what other members have told me the Ph adjustment is not absolutly necessary.

It is best to if possible to have the casing as flush with the top of the container as able. CO2 tends to be trapped if the casing is sunk as CO2 is heavier than air and this reduces yield. Having it flush allows the CO2 to flow to a lower point away from the casings surface. I don't know about overflowing though, flush is as full as I'd go personally. Over filling the case would cause pieces to fall out and increase contam risk I would imagine.

[Coschi]

Thanks Harry

Yeah I read about the side pinning bit, the container that will be used for the perlite humidification is totally clear so the casing container obviously shouldn't be, i've just read everywhere the mention of plastic containers, but i don't know if there is a problem with using a metal casing container ??

And well the casing will firstly be flush or maybe 1cm under flush or so with the top of the casing container (depending on how it's done of course, i'm sure it can be worked) but for second and third and fourth flushes the height of the casing will be going up and up, only a little but by the end it may well be almost an inch over level with the top of the casing container, i'm sure it doesn't matter...

[chilli]

If you haven't already, check out the 'archives' at http://thenook.org/, all this info is from there.

A casing does become like a big cake, but obviously its not exposed to the air like a normal little cake is.

The casing itself is basically just there to supply moisture to the mycelium. People use all sorts of things for casing, and get good results. The depths of casing you mentioned sound a little thin for 3" of mycelium.

Any opaque container will do, again people have success with all sorts of things. Opaque is best, otherwise the mushrooms will grow out to the sides. Putting the tray in a fruiting chamber will help to protect it from airborne contaminants and also to keep it moist... cover it with gladwrap with fork holes punched in it until it starts pinning.

Crumble or cut fully colonized cakes with no pinning. Once the mycelium starts to poke out the top, just be patient and shrooms will start to appear soon after. From what I recall a buildup of C02 is supposed to be good for inducing pinning, but in any case, it will be important to have good airflow once your shrooms start to grow... check out some of the articles on fanning in the nook archives for more info.

Ideally, you should sterilize the casing mix in a pressure cooker, especially if peat is involved.

As far as overflowing the casing tray, doesn't sound like a good or idea, and its obviously not going to work if you cover it with gladwrap... I'd say leave at least an inch, there's no need for it to be flush, and this may in fact promote infection and hinder pinning.

Good luck, and make sure you check out those archives at the nook.

*edit* just saw your last post... the casing wont get higher with each flush, it will actually get lower as the cake dehydrates. Any clean container will do, it doesnt have to be plastic, aluminum trays work fine.

Edited October 17, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[ENtiTY]

Hmmm... Everything I have read says that CO2 is bad and causes a reduction in fruiting.

Should the casing containers have drainage holes in the base for flushing purposes?

I don't know why your casing will swell. All the ones I've seen had actually shrunk.

Might swell at flushing but surely not beyond the original volume.

[Coschi]

Alright, sounds good Chilli

Yeah i've checked the nook, and shroomery, and mycotopia, and etc...

I like best so far is the PF teks from www.fanaticus.com and www.fungifun.org, both have very good information on the same tek

50/50 from shroomery looks good

Say the cakes are about 2", 1/2" casing layer on bottom and how much on top?

Ahh.. what's the best way to ensure 90% humidity? Leave the lid of the humidity chamber just slightly off?

Excellent

[chilli]

Hmmm... Everything I have read says that CO2 is bad and causes a reduction in fruiting.

That's why I said he will need to start fanning when he gets fruit appearing, but I have heard quite a few reports that a buildup of CO2 is positive, mind you I have also read the exact opposite, that it is in fact O2 that helps induce pinning. What is definitely true though is that CO2 causes the growth of mycelium, so at least don't start fanning until your casings are showing mycelieum poking through here and there... from what I recall, it's best to let a decent amount poke through, then remove the gladwrap and then start fanning.

Should the casing containers have drainage holes in the base for flushing purposes?

I'm not sure what you're asking here... a flush is the term for each successive 'batch' of mushrooms, you certainly do not flush your casings with anything. Perhaps you mean drainage? In which case, I think holes might help if you overwet the casing, but you should definitely try and avoid this... probably can't hurt though, as long as the trays are in a sterile fruiting chamber.

I don't know why your casing will swell. All the ones I've seen had actually shrunk.

Might swell at flushing but surely not beyond the original volume.

It is precisely because of flushing that the casing 'shrinks,' as the growing mushrooms suck up all the available water.

Edited October 17, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[ENtiTY]

I'm not sure what you're asking here... a flush is the term for each successive 'batch' of mushrooms, you certainly do not flush your casings with anything. Perhaps you mean drainage? In which case, I think holes might help if you overwet the casing, but you should definitely try and avoid this... probably can't hurt though, as long as the trays are in a sterile fruiting chamber.

It is precisely because of flushing that the casing 'shrinks,' as the growing mushrooms suck up all the available water.

Well AFAIK a flush like you say refers to batches of fruits produced after the rehydration of the substrate. Therfore logically a flush has to be initiated by the "Flushing" of the cakes/case with water, which is where I believe the term "flush" originated. A fruit flush being the product of a case flushing.

Yeah you are correct in your connecting drainage holes with drainage, very clever of you chilli . Cakes are submersed in water for 12 hours or so, I assume the process would be the same with casings. Problem with casings is there encased so excess water cannot escape, hence the need for drainage holes. Do you know of a better way to fully re-hydrate a casing? Sterility could of course be a problem for out door teks but me, I'm only concerned with CE fruiting conditions so contam isn't really an issue.

Logically, because mushrooms primarily consist of water, primarily the shrinkage of the case would be from fruit growth, the flush not the flushing which does the exact opposite and is the trigger for the next cycle. Thats the way I see it any way.

[chilli]

Well AFAIK a flush like you say refers to batches of fruits produced after the rehydration of the substrate. Therfore logically a flush has to be initiated by the "Flushing" of the cakes/case with water, which is where I believe the term "flush" originated. A fruit flush being the product of a case flushing.

The term flush has nothing to do with rehydrating cakes or casings, it is simply the term used for the maturation of a 'crop' of mushrooms, also known as a break or a bloom.

Yeah you are correct in your connecting drainage holes with drainage, very clever of you chilli . Cakes are submersed in water for 12 hours or so, I assume the process would be the same with casings. Problem with casings is there encased so excess water cannot escape, hence the need for drainage holes. Do you know of a better way to fully re-hydrate a casing?

Well there are a number of ways, some people inject their cakes and some people recase their casings. Dunking casings would be pretty pointless though, because part of the casings purpose is to deliver water to the mycelium. Casing refers to the medium that the mycelium is covered in, not the container that you put it in.

Sterility could of course be a problem for out door teks but me, I'm only concerned with CE fruiting conditions so contam isn't really an issue.

Actually, sterility is less of a concern if you are doing an outdoor tek, and preventing contams should be your number one issue indoors. I am not sure what CE means?

Logically, because mushrooms primarily consist of water, primarily the shrinkage of the case would be from fruit growth, the flush not the flushing which does the exact opposite and is the trigger for the next cycle. Thats the way I see it any way.

I think I see where the confusion lies now, you are referring to 'dunking' as 'flushing,' but this is inaccurate, you do not flush the substrate with water or anything else when you dunk, you soak it. Flushing is the term used for growing successive crops of mushrooms.

Actually, there is one more usage I can think of for flushing, because you will have to 'flush' all your cakes and casings if you think contams are not an issue.

*edit* BTW, dunking does not technically trigger the next cycle, it merely provides sufficient water for the mushrooms to grow.

Edited October 17, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[chilli]

Alright, sounds good Chilli

Yeah i've checked the nook, and shroomery, and mycotopia, and etc...

I like best so far is the PF teks from www.fanaticus.com and www.fungifun.org, both have very good information on the same tek

50/50 from shroomery looks good

Say the cakes are about 2", 1/2" casing layer on bottom and how much on top?

Ahh.. what's the best way to ensure 90% humidity? Leave the lid of the humidity chamber just slightly off?

Excellent

Sorry I missed your question. The best way would be to use a humidifier, some people just put the lid on the chamber as normal, but don't snap it down.

BTW, I see you have been to the nook, but have you actually checked the Archives there? They are full of answers to all of the questions you have asked so far... the link is:

http://www.thenook.org/archives/5.html

or to download them to your computer:

http://www.thenook.org/archives/download.html

if you unzip them on your harddrive, you can use you OS's search function to look for specific terms by searching the body of the text. Mind you, I wouldn't want to get busted with them on my HD.

Edited October 17, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[ENtiTY]

Not to sure where I came up with the connection with flushing and a flush. I thought I read it somewhere, might have been an assumption as well.

I've looked at out door grow teks and noticed that sterility was fairly lax, which seemed strange at the time.

Contam hasn't been an issue for me so far, all the precautions and protocols are followed which is why I'm not concerned with contam. CE is Controlled Environment. A CE can mean a lot of things I suppose, in my case it means indoors in a setting as close to the "ideal" environmental conditions for the species as I can manage.

I guess there are many factors that trigger fruiting... light, CO2 levels, moisture, humidity and temperatue. However in a CE all those conditions are right; before, during and after a flush except moisture levels in the cake/case which fluctuates according to which stage its at. As the medium dries the fruiting slow/stops until its re-hydrated and the next flush can start.

So from this point of view in a CE, dunking can been seen as a trigger. At any rate its used as one.

Thanx for the clarification chilli, on the same page just talkin a different language Knew what casing is but I have also seen the cased cake and container its in refered to as a case as well.

Learnings fun

[Hyphal]

Harry, Dunking does NOT trigger mycelium to fruit - ever.... not even in a controlled environment.

Some triggers for fruiting are - when the mycelium has used up all available nutrients, or, comes in contact with a natural barrier in the substrate (e.g. a contam); a drop in temperature and light.

Dunking can possibly aid in re hydrating a cake or casing after each flush but the jury is out whether it really makes that much of a difference anyway, and heavy misting between flushes can be just as effective, but either are not vital to induce fruiting in anyway whatsoever.

[ENtiTY]

Fair enough LOL.

Can't follow your logic on the water and fruiting side of things though. Mushrooms are how many percent water? I would of thought it obvious that if myc dosen't have water then fruiting is going to be non-existant or painfully slow at best. There is no doubt atmospheric absorbtion as well but not enough to support the growth rate of a fruit body.

Dunking or what ever means one uses for rehydrating is from what I've read, seen and talked to others about, part of the process for bringing about the next flush. Brings on larger and more numerous fruits. Might not be vital to induce the next flush but hey, if you have no worries waiting 3 months for a quantity of fruits enought for any use then thats up to you. I'd much rather dunk and have the same quantity in 2 weeks.

To each his/her own.

[Hyphal]

Fair enough LOL.

Can't follow your logic on the water and fruiting side of things though. Mushrooms are how many percent water? I would of thought it obvious that if myc dosen't have water then fruiting is going to be non-existant or painfully slow at best. There is no doubt atmospheric absorbtion as well but not enough to support the growth rate of a fruit body.

To each his/her own.

Mushrooms are on average 90% water.

So why do you think you bring your substrate and casing layer to field capacity then before spawning and casing? Have you seen how much water it actually takes to bring a substrate to field capacity? Thats where they get their moisture from, dunking after the first or subsequent flushes is purely to try and 'put back' the water the first flush took out of the cake/casing.

Dunking a casing BEFORE its first flush will only delay the flush by the time it takes to dunk and will not speed the process of your first flush up at all and isnt necessary until later flushes...

[ENtiTY]

Mushrooms are on average 90% water.

So why do you think you bring your substrate and casing layer to field capacity then before spawning and casing? Have you seen how much water it actually takes to bring a substrate to field capacity? Thats where they get their moisture from, dunking after the first or subsequent flushes is purely to try and 'put back' the water the first flush took out of the cake/casing.

Dunking a casing BEFORE its first flush will only delay the flush by the time it takes to dunk and will not speed the process of your first flush up at all and isnt necessary until later flushes...

Who said anything about dunking before a first flush? I have never tried my hand at casing yet, will have some spawn ready for it this weekend or during the week. Cakes have been my method so far. I've heard that dunking cakes before fruiting starts is supposed to increase yield and fruit size, something I will try on my next birthing.

Although cased spawn has a greater moisture resivour than a cake it also fruits heavier than a cake, and so uses more water. I know how much water it takes to bring a cake mix to field capacity, I have also observed how much water is used in the fruit yield, myc colonisation and lost due to respiration. Some sort of rehydration is a necessity after a flush with cakes. Same would be true with cased spawn. The resivour may be larger in relation to the amount of myc in a case so perhaps rehydration is not needed so often with them.

According to chilli dunking a case is not the way to go about rehydration anyway. Injection and misting seem to be the recommended approaches.

I can see where the confusion lies now, I've been drawing experience from cake methodology in a case thread. LOL, my bad.

Should be a lil wiser as to the case methodology in the coming weeks.

Thanks for the discussion Hypha

[Hyphal]

Good luck on your step up to casings - I see how you can relate what your saying to cakes as well now.

Thats one of the main problem with cakes - there is little moisture available to the mycelium, other than the humidity and what water is used in the mixing of the substrate. Think of mycelium like a sponge - it literally 'sucks' up water as they

are fruiting and this is why you often see cakes that are sitting on a moist bed or verm fruiting from where they contact with this moisture.

And yes, as chilli said, for casings - there is a lot of moisture available, so dunking is not necessarily the best way to rehydrate - where a cake has no casing layer so does need another method of rehydration.

I've tried injecting casing with water and had little success with that method - its tedious and the casing doesnt seem to take the water very well. Heavy misting works great after a flush, and I do dunk casings every time - but the few times I havent dunked I havent noticed a HUGE difference, hence why I think the jury is out on dunking casings.

A side by side trial is what is needed I think - 4 casings, same substrate and strain, same conditions - 2 dunked after first flush, 2 not...

[ENtiTY]

Thanx Hypha

Caught the hint hehe. Will make 4 trays, 2 for each group. 1st group will have no dunk after 1st flush, 2nd group will be rehydrated after 1st flush by dunking. Should have enough spawn for 6 medium sized alfoil trays so might make a group where its heavily misted after 1st flush as well.

Keep them in the same fruiting camber, record time lines, fruit sizes, flush fruit weight and study the results

Will post the results when finished

[Hyphal]

Far out hazza - I wasnt hinting at anything, more thinking out loud about something Ive been meaning to do for a while - but that sounds awesome, hats off to ya - keep us posted....

What will you be spawning to?

[ENtiTY]

Sorry my bad

Prolly best to keep it simple on my first attempt. I've got some coconut coir and peat moss at home so it'll be one of those. Need to do a bit more reasearch to refresh my memory on whats involved and I'll make a decision after that. The coir is supposed to be good so it'll prolly be that.

The spawns consists of corn kernals ala GCF tek, damn fast colonisation on that stuff! Way faster than grain. Recommend corn to anyone!

Not sure if this answers your question. I've just browsed whats involved with casings so I prolly missed some details.

[Jonny Deformed]

Hi guys, a few questions regarding a 50/50 casing (verm/peat)

Standard PF cakes will be used

the tek: http://www.shroomery.org/54/50-50-Casing-Tek

Firstly, a casing like this is to essentially create one big flat cake right?

So, about 1/2" of 50/50 wet mix at the bottom, then three inches of cakes on top, then about 3/4" more 50/50 wet mix on top?

Same water as used for the substrate wetting i'm assuming?

This casing should be in a non-translucent container, is a cake backing tray (aluminium or stainless steel) alright?

Once the casing is prepared, put the tray on top of moistened perlite in a tub and give indirect sunlight, that's it?

Regarding the cakes, wait till they are fully colonized and then case? ie: don't induce pinning

Let the mycelium take over the upper casing layer and then pinning starts itself?

Sorry for all the questions, these are just things i'm not entirely sure of

One more, sterilizing the casing material, could the mix be put in a glass jar and sterilized in the same way as the substrate was? I'm assuming so...

thanks

Edit: One more should the cakes be cased or should they just be birthed?? Obviously the objective is higher yield, more flushes, better technique. Not necessarily ease. 6 x 250mL cakes are being colonized at the momo, maybe that'll be too much for the baking tray anyway! Well on that note, does the casing need to finish flush with the top of the container used or can it overflow?

Haven't read all the above so excuse me if i repeat what others have said.

Firstly a Casing should not be flat but airy and fluffy, with vally's for the primodia to form.

I personaly don't use a bottom layer since its yet another vector for contams.

Birth the fully colonized cake, put it into a large ziplock bag and fill with distilled water. Let soak for 12 hours or so (This is Dunking)

You're right about the non-translucent container but i've seen myc eat through aluminium. Any non-translucent container with the right dimentions will do though. You want a minimum of 2" substrate and 1/2" Fluffy casing layer sprinkled on top. Do not pat down.

Oxegen, Light and temp drop are all fruiting triggers. I've heard you only really need less than a second of light to trigger pinning, light is more of a growing direction guide.

I sterilize the casings in the microwave for 10 minutes. mixing at 5. Be sure to hydrate first.

Birth, Dunk, Crumble, Case, Fruit.

Simple.

Hope this helps