Faith Healing? Or an excercise in brainwashing?

[Green Osiris]

Speaking to a friend earlier who has recently discovered faith in Pentecostalism. We were chatting about ‘faith healings’ and examples of cancer-riddled patients being cured as a result of surrendering to Jesus. Being more atheistic-scientific in my mind, I proposed whether there have ever been reports of HIV+ sufferers coming through unscathed. For whilst there ARE cases of cancers being overcome (medically documented), I am yet to hear of a single AIDS patient who has succeeded in reversing all traces of the virus from their system.

At some point, her father (whom I have never met, nor spoken to in the past) desired to speak with me. A well-spoken fellow, clearly of moderate intelligence from the outset, proceeded to tell me the supposed factual story of a woman called Petti Wagner. Now this is way too incredible for me to fathom, as it goes something like this.

Petti Wagner, the daughter of a very wealthy family, decides to make her own riches and starts a marriage counselling clinic in California in the 1960’s. After some time, she is credited with reducing the divorce rate immensely. As her reputation grows, so does her wealth. Some of Petti’s employees become very jealous and plot to bring her down and take some of her riches, so they start dosing her on a daily basis with lithium (from memory). This does nothing. They end up kidnapping her, holing her up in an abandoned hospital room three floors up and torture & kill her by way of electrocution. A power-of-attorney is fraudulently filed, a death certificate is issued (one of the aggressors was a doctor) and they think about cashing in.

Here’s where the tale really stretches the imagination. Petti’s soul ascends to ‘meet her maker‘, and is asked whether she is prepared to accept her death, or return to life to continue her work (ie the counselling). She opts for the latter, and is returned to life, albeit back into the body that’s laying in the abandoned hospital three floors up, locked in a room with only a thick plexiglass window affixed by 200 screws. For some reason 24 hours have lapsed, and all three(?) of her killers have mysteriously died during this period.

I am told by friends father that Petti has access to a spoon that was not taken up when the hospital used to operate in the past, and ‘god’ tells her that her faith, along with the spoon will get her out, if she applies her mind to it. So she proceeds to unscrew each of the 200 screws in the window and push it down. However being three floors up, she is confused as to how she might proceed. Further consultation with ‘god’ tells her that she should just jump, and will be gently guided down to safety. So she does exactly that.

Unsure where this goes from this point, but she ends up ‘proving’ what happened to authorities, pays her maxed-out credit cards off (that were used by her kidnappers), is offered extended credit for paying them off so quickly, and uses the money to re-start her business.

This was all said to me more in the context of religious intervention rather than a big business success story. Personally, I find it hard to swallow, but apparently Petti wrote a book about it in the early 70’s and it stands as a great faith-selling story amongst believers in healings etc.

Apologies if anyone knows this story and I have misrepresented any part of it - I am only relying on my memory and of course the ‘accuracy’ of the person telling me the tale.

He rounded this off by addressing my speculation of ‘curing’ AIDS in a person is easy work for a ‘god’ that can do so much for Petti Wagner……

************************************************************************

I have always held a grave concern for those who believe in ‘faith-healing’ and the potential for conditions to go unaddressed. Friend’s father also told me of a guy who goes to their church that crushed his ribs in an accident as a cop, went to hospital and was discovered to be absolutely riddled with cancer. After much prayer, he now walked around saying “I am the healed one”, and has been cured. For months afterwards, doctors are STILL telling him the chances are something like 1 in 1000, and he responds by telling them “I am that 1”. Continued medical tests show the cancer has NOT abated in the slightest, but he is off treatment as he ‘knows’ he is cured. And the members of the congregation (including the person telling me this) believe him to be cured. I wonder what they’ll all be saying at his funeral to brighten up this healed one’s death and sell a positive spin on the nature of their ‘god’s’ powers ?

[Μορφέας]

Being penetecostal myself i had to say something, Its amazing how much muslims, homosexuals, jews ect. will windge and call discrimination and religious intolerance blah blah but whenever it comes to the bad mouthing of Christian faith, which seems to be the politicly correct not to mention a socially excepted manner these days, alot of Christians just dont say ANYTHING.

Good on petti, Its not too far fetched for me to believe, Jesus did more incredible things then that. Although I'l never know if the story was true or streched to some extent.

Iv herd storys where angels and have surrounded a villiage in indonesian where christianity is illigal, and sheilded a church from attack by the militry, Limbs being restored, Literally a limb was regrown, My preist held a prayer for rain day when he preached in the outback. That year their was just enough rain for the crops to survive and all over the papers the story of an incredible crop, 10 times as big as it should have been was harvested.

Edited December 15, 2006 by tepa

[Green Osiris]

Have you read the book, tepa ? Or has the story come up in your church attendance ? If so, apologies for any innacuracies in the telling, it's third hand information by the time I posted it.

You raise a very good point about responses to religious/cultural/social intolerance. So I wonder WHY more christians don't defend themselves. Whilst I am not christian/jewish/gay/islamic etc, EVERYONE has a right to practice their belief in this country. Not so in some other countries, sadly.

Perhaps the issues faced with being muslim in Australia is more pronounced due to the western world's majority-faith christian values, and the true intolerance that they must deal with, borne mostly from skewed media reports, which filters down into talk-back radio and into 'mainstream' society, where sadly a whole lot of people think that islam=terrorism. This same society fails to remember the recent past in Australia alone, where the worst attacks on the public were perpetrated not by muslims (or anyone of mid-eastern culture) but those with Euro heritage. John Wade Frankum (Strathfield Plaza), the Murpheys & friends (Anita Cobby). Martin Bryant (Port Arthur) and more.

Whilst any aspects of social persecution is unfair & unwarranted, muslims are copping a lot more these days than christians.

[Μορφέας]

Considering christians are the largest faith in the world! Their voice is very small, I should be proud, says alot about them that their peacful. Especially with all the assertive and out spoken religions and minority groups

[Green Osiris]

Was the IRA peaceful ?

Or the 200+ year "Crusades" ?

So called 'witch' persecutions ?

The anti-abortion fundamentalists who shoot and kill doctors ?

We need to accept that blood has been spilled in the name of many faiths.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Green Osiris

[Μορφέας]

Was the IRA peaceful ?

Or the 200+ year "Crusades" ?

So called 'witch' persecutions ?

The anti-abortion fundamentalists who shoot and kill doctors ?

We need to accept that blood has been spilled in the name of many faiths.

See what I mean?

Every religion and people have done things, that from todays views are seen in the same light.

Your comparing Oranges to Mangos

[Green Osiris]

See what I mean?

What ? Im simply countering your comment that christianity is peaceful. It's not by a long stretch. Do these atrocities make ALL christians bloodthirsty meglomaniac power seekers ? Of course not. Just as a bunch of wacko's flying some planes into a building isn't representative of islam, and society shouldnt judge by minorities who lose the plot

Your comparing Oranges to Mangos

Well, they're both fruit Or did you mean the Orange Order ?

Anyway, so have you read Petti Wagner's book or not ? I'm going to search my library this weekend for it, sounds like a good yarn.

[The Dude]

I'd say that mystical/religious experiences and trance states and other altered states work in a similar way. The africans do the drummy beat playing thing.. and very fucking well, and do the jiggy and trance out. Those fellas in skirts that spin around and around and around and around and around trance out. Doofers and pill munchers trance out.. Religions make 1 trance out. It is the transcendental realisation that we are having a Shared experience thats what religious experiences are all about. A Group setting facilitates this realisation.

They're all special experiences I'm sure and depending on the context of whats going on in your life they could be truely spiritual and uber good for ye.

Also a shared faith and a strong faith not that pretend shit, shared among many people within close proximity of each other could well lead to group trancing the fuck out.

In Haitian Voudou shizzle (I saw this on Safran vs God) they trance out and spaz out or have a fit, or pass out or do an uber funky dance.. like some kinda mind/body orgasmic.. thing,

Of course u know I was gonna bring up the speaking tongues...

trancing out.

All I know of pentecostal churches is Borat, but that kinda excitement and energy had by every1 running around and exclaiming praise to jesus and crying out loud etc... gonna make ya trance out.

Also Ima thinking that if mind is greater than the limitations of our individual bodies, the very strong beliefs shared by all would be enough to counterbalance even very strong skepticism. And if Mind over Matter is the shizzle they say it is, then one focused collective of minds could hypothetically remove cancers via some miracle.

One cynical fucker taking an ever-sarcastic view of religions is John Safran, who underwent a public excorcism where he totally changed from the usual sarcastic smartarse and appeared to be in a hypnotised kind of trance and going through all the motions of being possessed by the devil as though he truely believed it himself.. or all those other christians maybe did?

From what I imagine Speaking Tongues is just that burst of creative whatever the fuck spurting out, you could dance it, you could guitar jam it.. you could yallayallaballayallaloboslabalobos it...

On the idea of Shared Experiences creating altered States. Churches, loving though they may be, its only in the name of jesus and not from themselves, I don't want to be in an environment where I couldnt help but half believe that cuz every1 else did, it's that over-bearing "jesus is the only answer" that fucks me off. I much prefer the genuine acceptance and love that is preached and partied out at ... so far every doof party i've been to. But then I also really like trancing out with friends.

Edited December 16, 2006 by El Duderino

[The Dude]

Ah and on brain washing, when the mind is made malleable again thru hypnosis or what have you, the fuckers will exploit this, so be careful.

[faustus]

For months afterwards, doctors are STILL telling him the chances are something like 1 in 1000, and he responds by telling them "I am that 1".

one in 1000... unlikely things do happen. god can offer a great placebo effect in some.

unusual phenomenon occurs, therefore god exists.

EVERYONE has a right to practice their belief in this country

no they don't. when extreme practises and beliefs offend our sensibilities, they should neither be accepted nor tolerated.

[Green Osiris]

no they don't. when extreme practises and beliefs offend our sensibilities, they should neither be accepted nor tolerated.

I agree. Which means that if we are to rally against the "BigBizPtyLtdInc", choices should be made carefully when buying goods&services.

Drink a coffee at a Gloria Jeans store, and you support a Hillsongs Church operation. A cartel that had absolutely no regard for the environment, using only heavy-duty disposable cups.

Take a non-meat choice in the range of Sanitarium Foods, and support a wholly-owned Seventh-Day-Adventist company.

Uncle Toby's may be a Quaker operation.

Thousands of products on the shelves at Woolworths/Coles that rely on big-packaging marketing to intice the consumer. Absolute irresponsibiliy, but the masses keep lapping it up. Forget the polyprophelene carry bags that make a 'good' consumer, reject the whole fucking lot - where possible at least.

I shop at Alfalfa House mostly........ being deliberatly un-supportive of religious/corporate products by choice.

[Green Osiris]

... as a pale -greenie

[Auxin]

EVERYONE has a right to practice their belief in this country

no they don't. when extreme practises and beliefs offend our sensibilities, they should neither be accepted nor tolerated.

The problem is who defines "extreme"? In most peoples view ayahuasca, peyote, and dance&drum induced trance states are 'extreme practises that offend our sensibilities" but somehow I doubt a whole lot of people here are happy that going to an ayahuascero for help in beating alcoholism is illegal.

Things should be evaluated based on actual tangible harms a practice has for oneself and others rather than something as vague as what offends the sensibilities of politicians. If going out to the bush, fasting for a day, danging nude around a fire while chanting invocations to the spirits, and then eating peyote helps someone (or at least they have the belief that it will help) and no one who might be offended is forced to watch why should this 'extreme practice' be illegal?

I object to the idea of 'religious tolerance' thats forced down peoples throats. Tolerance implies that we dont like it and are probably opposed to it but bear with it to keep the peace. 'Acceptance' would be a nice neutral term perhaps but why cant we try respect? In 'religious tolerance' people are often allowed to oppress the little under-represented groups so long as they tolerate people with large special interest groups- really its just bigotry buffered by political correctness. If we cultivate the ability to respect the beliefs of others we'll be able to live in harmony around another religious/belief group regardless if their members number in the hundreds or hundreds of millions.

"Man becomes great exactly in the degree in which he works for the welfare of his fellow-men." - Mohandas Gandhi

Edited December 16, 2006 by Auxin

[foolsbreath]

There is one case of a man loosing aids

brit beats aids, but it doesn't have much impact on the scenario outlined above