a koan

[parzival]

Who is the divine being that makes the grass green?

[nabraxas]

i am

if a tree falls in the forest w/no-one around to hear it, will it make a sound?

what is the sound ov 1 hand clapping?

[ramon]

if a tree falls in the forest w/no-one around to hear it, will it make a sound?

Off course not !

[nabraxas]

shurely you mean "ov couse not"

yeah, that one's too easy.

but i never have been able to get a handle on the one hand thang --even when i've heard the "official" 'offer hand palm up & say "this"' or the "unofficial" --'slap the questioner on the forehead & say "this"'--which actually makes more sense to me

any enlightenment much appreciated

Edited August 4, 2006 by nabraxas

[ramon]

shurely you mean "ov couse not"

yeah, that one's too easy.

but i never have been able to get a handle on the one hand thang --even when i've heard the "official" 'offer hand palm up & say "this"' or the "unofficial" --'slap the questioner on the forehead & say "this"'--which actually makes more sense to me

any enlightenment much appreciated

what is the official explanation for the answer regards the one about the tree in the forrest.

My answer stems from the fact that sound is what you get when sound waves reach some sort of hearing device.

So if there is no one there to hear it you get sound waves but no sound.

the one hand clapping one. I can clap one hand. Bring the fingers back onto the palm of you hand.

Although I will be sorely tempted to slap someone in the forehear from now one if I am ever asked that one in person.

[nabraxas]

sound is what you get when sound waves reach some sort of hearing device yeah, i think that's basically right

This is essentially a question of definitions, i.e. how you define sound or noise.

Here are the two basic answers.

Yes

A noise is a sound and a sound is a set of vibrating molecules referred to as sound waves. If a tree falls in the forest and makes a sound, it makes molecular vibrations, or sound waves, whether any human ear drum is around to sense them or not. So yes, it makes a noise. A person hearing it is irrelevant to the being of the sound. A person hearing it is only relevant to human consciousness of the sound.

Another argument for this viewpoint is based on theology. God observes the entire universe.

No

If a tree falls, and no one is around to hear it, it does not make a noise by definition. What is noise? What is sound? One must make sure to look at this question not from such a skewed view point to realize that he or she is being misled. From an early stage in our lives, through modern science, it is FACT that sound waves are processed in our brains, thus if we are not near the sound it is just an assumption that it does make a noise.

Sound travels through our ears, into the canal, and into the brain to allow for it to be processed by the brain, allowing for us to differentiate due to experiences that yes, it is that particular noise. However, one would not know the sound to be that way if they cannot imagine the situation. Thus, a human being or another entity must be present to absorb the vibrations, waves, etc in order to process the information.

Some take this further and claim that the whole universe does not really exist until it is observed. [which echoes the Observer Problem in quantum mechanics; like schrodinger's cat the tree exist in an unknown state until we observe it as either fallen or upright Nab.]

Wikki answers

Although I will be sorely tempted to slap someone in the forehear from now one if I am ever asked that one in person.

----i'm still waiting for someone to ask me

[devance]

Big yellow shining thing in sky. Light waves.

Called a sun,[son] might be alive and have ecosytems.

Plasma type.

[occidentalis]

what is the sound ov 1 hand clapping?

Something interesting I learnt about this one:

Two hands represents the the duality of existance - the subject and object, the observer and the observed. The 'clapping' represents them coming together in the act of observation or experience. And the sound is consciousness.

What is the sound of one hand clapping? It is the sound of the duality of existance collapsed into one.

[devance]

Reminds of a intelligence enhancing technique.

-----------------------------------------

Anything that causes me stress I don't do.

---------------------------------------------------

I call it the pizza pie cutter technique.

Instead of the cutting wheel cutting the pizza it actualyl unifies the pizza as it go along.

[ramon]

What is the sound of one hand clapping? It is the sound of the duality of existance collapsed into one.

So as duality is only a delusion ( albeit a remarkably persistent one ) the sound of one hand clapping is none as everything has all ways been one from the start.

[foolsbreath]

Since clapping is the sound made when clapping (an onomatopoeia) there is of course a sound being made. The hand is obviously coming in contact with something otherwise it would not be clapping, but waving which does not make a sound unless your hand is very large and moving a considerable amount of air, but that would still not be a clap

[nabraxas]

 

 

The hand is obviously coming in contact with something otherwise it would not be clapping

--the old 'happy slap' answer is looking good then?

 

[2b]

Who is the divine being that makes the grass green?

I am alive.

[IndigoNative]

You could use the family guy approach when peter goes looking for his spiritual guide which turns out to be the fonz very cool. :drool:

peter asks the trees "hey do you guys make a sound when you fall over in a forest?"

the tree's "why dont you ask gary he fell down last week and wont shut up about it"

and the whole indian casino thing amusingly ironic.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Serapis

[IndigoNative]

Not sure if you would call this a Kaon?

Anywayz challenge anyone and all to work it out.

The Great Mystery of Ourselves

Are we the imaginations of ourselves? or

the imagination creating ourselves?

[IndigoNative]

The Ocean of Knowledge

Have you gotten familiar with the ocean of intuitive knowledge of the essence and forms of pure original suchness? If you have not gotten familiar with it, how about the green mountains here before your eyes-- do you see them?

If you see them, how do you see? If you say you don't see, how can the green mountains be called invisible?

Do you understand? It is simply that your ocean of intuitive knowledge of the essence and forms of pure original suchness is equipped with seeing and hearing. If you understand, it is simply as such; if you don't understand, it is still simply as such.

Hsuan-sha (ninth to tenth century)

[ballzac]

It is quite possible that the tree is in a superpostion of the state of falling and of not falling, the wave function would extend to the state of the molecules of the air. They would be in a superposition of agitation and no agitation. This complexity of the wave function would increase until someone observed the system, at which point the wave function would collapse and the system would resolve itself into one of the many possible realities. The next most likely explanation would be that the tree would be non-existant at all until observed. Either way, even if we consider a longitudinal pressure wave travelling through a gas to be considered sound before it is detected, we cannot say for sure that the sound was there before we hear it.

[nabraxas]

Are we the imaginations of ourselves? or

the imagination creating ourselves?

It is often said that men are ruled by their imaginations; but it would be truer to say they are governed by the weakness of their imaginations.

Walter Bagehot (1826-77), English economist, critic. The English Constitution, ch. 2 (1867).

not that life isn't good, but it would be one hell ov alot better if imagination was creating it

Edited October 4, 2006 by nabraxas