wandjina

HAPPY BIRTHDAY Mesc!!!! All the best for a wonderful day!

Funny you mention nose fetsishes ballzac, as I was just thinking about a story I heard about a guy who had a fetish for putting stuff up his nose during sex, and also just for comfort like having a smoke or sucking your thumb...he'd usually insert something as far as it could go apparently, right up into the nasal cavity, and down his throat... Turns out he'd been born quite prematurely, and hence, for the first few months of his life, had received all nourishment through a tube up his nose...that was the theory anyways as to the aetiology of his nose fetish. I've also noticed that theres some interesting fetishes that seem to evolve out of ones breast feeding experience...I'd be interested in hearing what the bottle-fed have to say about this. My ex, and daughters father, was breast-fed by his mother and his two aunts, a relatively common practise in his culture...('caboclo' - Indian/European descent). He had little interest in boobs - and from what he told me he was more than orally satisfied in that department as a baby/infant...he was more of an arse-man, and according to him that was the norm in brasil, boobs weren't a big deal relative to the proportions of a woman's bum. Are tits more obsessed about in 'white' culture because of our heritage? Because bottle-feeding has been more common compared to the developing world (tho im sure nestle's et al are doin what it can to create demand for formula as they did in parts of africa). That is, did the Wests turn to bottle feeding represent repressed attitudes to womens sexuality, towards seeing tits as serving a purely practical function as opposed to a sexual/sensual one? (in addition to the biomedicalisation/'scientification' of health, dis-ease and healing in general)? And hence made bazoongas more interesting because they became in some sense out-of-bounds or taboo?

I for one am interested. For example, I am no great fan of anal sex, and had simply always assumed that girls in anal porn were doing it because it is a major fantasy for most guys which they probably don't get to live out in reality all that often. So, I am totally gobsmacked to hear wanjina stating that she 'loves it'. Really?! Two of my closest girlfriends love it too, while several other women I know enjoy it on particular occassions (usually altered/very relaxed). One common denominator as far as i can tell (in women who are into it), is having a partner who isnt too 'gung-ho'. Indeed, one of my gf only got into it, she says, because her current bf is so sensual. Other guys had wanted to in the past, but were too 'intense' about it. I haven't engaged in anal sex with every partner I've had, only the ones I've felt very comfortable with. Though there have been times I did not enjoy it, its easy for a very excited person to forget themselves. Other common denominators, at least in the women I know, are: some degree of oral fixation, extrovert personas, and a taste for other 'kinky' practices. But boys, and girls, by and large its not like in the movies! Patience, patience, people. No need to rush things. I suggested to a mate of mine she try it with her bf, and he went for it without any prep...and i got a big whack next time she saw he, because the experience was excruiating. She wouldnt let him near her again!

oops...double post

Well, I'm finally getting my arse into gear and giving gluten the boot! However, I am not too thrilled with the results of my first foray into gluten free baking. I realise that when using flour substitutes (this one maize,tapioca and soy) one needs more liquid and longer baking times...but rather than continuing to experiment and waste ingredients (or bake unsatisfactory stuff and feel i have to eat it)...can anyone provide some tried and true recipes please? I'm especially after cake and muffin recipes, and would like to incorporate nuts/veggies etc...like carrot cake, or pecan and maple muffins etc. There's loads of recipes on the net...but it would be nice to have some that are vouchsafed by the good people here Also keen on recipes/tips on substituting maple syrup, conc. fruit juice and/or honey rather than refined sugars, and vegetable oils instead of margarines/butter. Any cook-book recommendations most welcome. Many thanks in advance

Ballzac...If you read the rest of that thread, you would have seen that I reconsidered my position, but no mind. I have neither the juice nor inclination to chase down your old posts, but there have been several occasions I've thought to myself that comments you've made were chauvinistic. In fact there are several members I feel make sexist/chauvinistic comments, but its only a part of them, and if they have some issues with women (or any other group) it doesnt really bother me that much. Everyone has issues/prejudices/biases etc etc. However, the fact that my opinion/view of you and your opinions bothers you so much says something in my mind. Its not just about me making assumptions or generalisations. Blind Freddy can see that. Yet it does not upset me to be accused of misandry, although your tone and vibe is very aggressive, I would be equally unphased at being labelled a necrophiliac goat fucker...the idea of hating men is equally laughable. In my life I have actually had more problems relating to women. I have had many more negative experiences with women too, on many levels. Maybe I'm a misanthropist? While it is irritating that you dont appear to have really understood my position and its nuances, and have grossly misrepresented and over-simplified, bastardised even, my argument to make it sound like I stand for ideas that I do not...I can understand that you would feel i have singled you out, that i have been too personal, and made assumptions about your character etc etc, and hence that you would want to hit back. Well, I am truly sorry for upsetting you or hurting your feelings, if I have. I mean that...I know I have been harsh. Perhaps i am projecting some of my issues on you in particular just cause you popped up at the right time...I cant rule that out even though I am not consciously aware of it. Though I do hope that maybe I've said something to make you think, but I suspect you're too angry to consider any of it. Baby out with the bathwater. I cant help wondering if maybe I wasn't a woman, the energy between us in this discussion would've been different. I know Im not the only member who gets 'personal' in debates. But my position remains...in my opinion, 'facials' are degrading to women (at least the 99% of us who dont like it), and men who have a fetish for it have a thing for it for a reason, IMO, an aspect of which is, IMO, an issue with seeing women as true equals rooted in a sexual superiority complex (alternatively, are in actuality scared of women, and can only feel safe if they also feel in control) however subtle, implicit or subsonscious...which doesnt mean I think these men are evil fucked-up perverted sickos...I just would never want to date a guy with a facial fetish again. I can say that one of my closest friends is particularly into it, and it doesnt prevent us from being mates, or from me respecting him as a person. He knows my stance also, and accepts it. Or rather, we agree to disagree. This has gone on long enough...I don't want to cause any more upset, and also I can see I have a problem in wanting to win this argument. So Im not going to feed it anymore. Whoever or whatever you are I love you anyway. So now I bow out, lay down my arms, and surrender .

You could print this up and publish it! Hell, spread it on a crackjer and eat it what an excellent discussion...can we have some more, please?

yum!!! thankyou so much guys that paneforte sounds delish...and the orange cake recipe :drool: I love almond meal. I agree with above sentiments re gluten free breads...they're too 'cakey' IMO. I love bread, just good qual bread with spread like tapenade or avocado...yum. But I've decided bread's got to go. In fact, I'm finding that any carbs that are too white/refined, even white rice, stimulates my appetite so much i end up eating more than I intended... I think you've made some exellent points re attitudes towards food and changing diet Torsten...I dont find alot of gf biscuits very satisfying (not a big biccy eater thankfully)...but I had these raspberry and coconut muffins awhile ago...omigod, they were exquistite! and Im stuck on the idea of pecan and maple something-er-other...but yes, I feel some kind of ideological conversion is in order if Im to succeed in changing my eating habits and healing my digestive system. btw...theres these organic date and almond roll thingies i just discovered at the new health food shop up the road....they are absolutely gorgeous,and well worth trying.... and the ingredients...date and almond, thats it! mmm ,mmm

Too much info me thinks hence edited. sorry...too late! would you like me to edit my post? I actually thought what you posted was interesting.

But your appreciation that it's becoming more common is definitely my finding too. In many ethnic circles anal sex was actually pretty damn common amongst young virgins who wanted to enjoy sex but protect their virginity. When I visited a friend in Greece who was doing a medical degree he said treating younger girls for anal fissures and problems was pretty common as the knowledge about lube etc was next to non existent in that age bracket. Since those ethnic girls have become more liberated and more willing to just have plain vaginal sex, anal sex has declined but hasn't had the taboo that is attached to it otherwise. Yes, i've often heard working girls refer to anal sex as 'Greek style'...and have mates who dated greek girls in high school who reported the same thing. Recently while in the 'doggy' position one lady started stroking her anus gingerly sending me into a spin! I got up the courage to actually lube my finger and massage the area with my thumb before entering it gently a little while later. Acutally, I remember reading ageeeeeessss ago this 'for the love of sex' type book, and it had a chapter on anal massage which I read with interest. It was a pretty new agey flavoured book, and discussed the energies that may be associated with loosening (not just in the physical sense) that part of the human anatomy so as to open oneself to pleasure in that area. Apparently angry outbursts during ealry forays represent some kind of release or soemthing, that ppls resistance to anal stimulation is not solely a question of social conditioning. I mean...if we think about it from a psychosomatic perspective...digestion, evacuation and how these bodily functions connect to our emotional and psychological health. We often talk about 'tight-arses', or say soemone is constipated in a figurative sense... In addition, anal sex, for the women and men I know who engage in it, myself included, has alot to do with trust and feeling safe with a partner. There is also some technique/prep involved that some ppl dotn seem to appreciate or understand. Being relaxed 'down there', heheh, leaves one in quite a vulnerable position (no pun intended)... Incidentally, I've heard that soemtimes the only way to get an animal whose jaws are clamped/locked ( eg pitbulls) to release their vice like jaws, is to stick soemthing up their bums...Helllllllo sailor! A real sign of how far women have come. gee, thanks lol...now we just have to wait for men to catch up on the rest! No, seriously, this idea that women arent as into sex as men is a bit old hat...I'd say 1/2 my female friends enjoy anal, but that may say more about my social cirlces than mainstream society, where it seems pretty clear (from the contents of soem girly womens mags), that the majority of women think it disgusting. Re 'how far women have come'....womens 'liberation' from their supposed tendency towards conservative sexual practices has as much to do with the historical suppression of female sexuality, as it does with women purportedly choosing to suppress their sexuality. The two cannot be separated. Many men find a sexually empowered woman intimidating.... consider the whole 'stud' vs. 'slut' dichotomy. Sorry to be boring, but I think a part of the turn-on for some hetero men re 'facials' is that, really, women don't enjoy it. Thats part of the thrill, the 'vibe'. Thats a big part of the reason why virtually all women dont like it IMO....because it feels like the guy doesnt really give a hoot if you're into it or not...he'll enjoy it regardless of how you really feel about (even if you finally cede after weeks of nagging and pestering), in fact, it feels like some guys enjoy it even more for that very reason. Just seems very one-sided and self-centred to me. And this, I feel, ties into the major theme in mainstream hetero porn...the submissive woman...not the strong, self-assured amazon! yeehaw!!!

So what makes cum on a girl's face any worse than cum on a guys face? The intent? The social context? Seems to me the problem with cum on face is because many hetero guys do it as a powergame, or at least that is how it is often portrayed in straight porn. So no wonder the girls are going to hate it. The more the guys [collectively] get off on the concept of superiority-by-cum, ie, the more we see helpless blond bimbos in straight porn wimpering at being turkey slapped and sitting there submisssively with semen dripping off her face, the less likely girls will embrace it as a fun activity. As far as i can tell the only difference Ive never seen gay porn where the receiver wasn't obviously loving it, and a hetero one where the woman was clearly acting. I couldnt agree more with the rest of your point here....9 times out of 10 It's about power IMO. Perhaps there is a connection with anal sex here too...for some ppl it is definantly a power thing, but as it becomes more socially acceptable, as it loses soem of its taboo, it seems easier for many women who were previously against it on 'moral' grounds to give it a go. Just an idea, I really dont know...but a few of my mates have more recently discovered it, whereas before it was more a case of being constantly pressured for it, seeing its rough portrayal in porn, and feeling turned off by that. Most definantly doesnt need to be rough to feel good. Therein lies my point. I certainly don't have any malicious intent (despite what Wandjina claims to know) , so why should I feel bad about it turning me on. bah! While its true I cant say that I know anything for certain, especially about a stranger, I still feel, based on the content of your earlier posts here and elsewhere on these forums, that you have some chauvinistic tendencies, with a tad of mysogyny thrown in. So do many men (and , many women for that matter). Its relatively common. I think we both need to try and accept this and get over it And believe it or not, there is a lot of straight porn where the woman is 'damanding' that the man cum on her face in the same way you mention being done in gay porn. Of course, they are acting, so getting back to the debate about conditions in the sex-industry it is probably irrelevant, but my point is that not all hetoro porn depicts women as powerless, and as I said before, there is actually a huge market for porn where the women appear to be in control. That's how it appears to you maybe. Appearances can be decieving. For me, 'facials' aren't about superiority or domination. I think I find facials erotic because the face is the most public part of a person, and it's a turn on to be doing something so 'dirty' with it. I still don't understand why Wandjina, and presumably others less 'vocal', would assume that I get off on the thought of being in control. If that was so, I'd probably get turned on by rape videos or at least guys calling women sluts etc. It's just not so. I think I'm reasonably in touch with who I am, and if there was any more sinister reason for my fetishes, I would know about it. I would also be honest about it. Hang on for a minute...there's a bit of a diff between cumming on soemones face and rape scenes. Shades of grey, shades of grey. I for one would argue that we all, everyone one of us, have parts of our selves we are not, at least under normal conditions, aware of. I always want to keep on learning about myself, and discovering deeper recesses of 'my' being/self....and the further in you go, the bigger it seems to get. I am pretty sure there are more surprises in store (soem unpleasant no doubt), or more perspectives to consider on who I am and what underlies the foundations of my personality and behaviour. I think you dost protest too much! I also think most ppl have some 'control issues', one way or another....why make it sound so nastily pathological (although i am guilty of this, I realise). I'd tend more towards labelling it the post-modern human condition. Beware of SPADES, its reached epidemic proportions!!!! (Shadow Projection and Denial Syndrome)

and that brings me to one final question regarding.. media in general, does it shape us or do we shape it? Is it merely a reflection of ourselves or does it shape ourselves.. I guess to buy the 'Rapeman' comic you'd probably be into that stuff anyway... yeah...i think this point is worth examining. I was just on the phone to a mate of mine who 'worked' for awhile...and she suggested that maybe the whole ejaculate-on-face thing originated in porn. Do some ppl grow up seeing this in films and then go on to associate it with sex/climax? I've only known one guy who was into it, and he told me he developed a fancy for it...he didnt always get a kick out of it...so what changed his tastes? I find it hard to belive soemthing like this is 'hard-wired'. But then plenty of human behaviour that is considered perfectly acceptable isnt...culture etc. My mate reckons it wasnt often requested where she worked, but that the girls expected extra $ for stuff like that. She also said that she has never known a woman, worker or otherwise, that didnt consider the act degrading. She suggested I pose the following question: Would you like warm runny mayonaisse squirted in your eye?

which brings me to hentai porn. That being animated porno. Where it can get pretty fantastical and retarded, and in almost all cases the women appear to be in extreme pain or really degraded and all that, but at least its not real yeah... Yes, good point...but, on one level, does it not matter if its not real? It would seem the bizarre themes of some japanese porn have alot to do with how sexually represssed traditional (and contemp) Japanese society is. Repressing natural urges is what seems to be at the root of many fetishes, of 'perversions' (though thats not I word I personally favour...homosexuality was regarded as a perversion not so long ago)...perhaps deviancy? to deviate, is better. bah...I dont know Whatever the case, some of the sexually freakiest ppl Ive ever known have been either a) recovering catholics (especially if ma and pa were strict) or b ) victims of child abuse or neglect (of the physical and/or psychological variety). It seems that if you cork something, the pressure builds up until it comes squirting out where ever it can...the more constrained the more convoluted the result. But is it simply question of better out than in? Can all desire be expressed/lived unfettered by karma... if from our perspective we are doing no 'real' harm to ourselves or others? Or should we, as individuals, attempt to find a way for what may be 'misdirected energies' to be redirected and ultimately extricated from obsession/neuroses? And yeah...hentai....I used to really enjoy some animated stuff...but bondage fairies was the most hard-core I consumed, I steered clear of the more extreme hentai. I preferred the cutesy, kooky, fantastical stuff, that is what I associate with hentai...though obviosuly a great deal of it is far, far from cutesy.

On the subject of sex with or without love: I used to prescribe to the sentiment that the only sex worth having is with someone you're in love with. After the breakdown of my first and only long-term relationship with my first love (and the girl I lost my virginity to) I still held to this for a while.... But I soon realised that I was staring down the barrell of "no sex till you find your true love" which seemed daunting as years began to elapse and progressively more immature, pubescent and unrealistically romantic. In the absence of that intense, emotional, mind-blowing experience which is making love to your mate, there is still great sex to be had which might not fulfill that emotional column but is very worthwhile nonetheless. As long as it's someone you're going to smile at in the morning. I've found all you need is mutual respect to have a good time Sorry, I didnt mean to argue that one needs to be in a monogamous relationship, or to be 'in love', to have wonderful sex. Mutual respect of a partner (what i would broadly refer to as love) is really the key IMO. If I'd waited for true love to have sex the last 2 years would have been very long indeed This is a gross generalisation, and like Twix, I am offended by it. Firstly, it would depend on your definition of 'humiliated', as many things that you think are humiliating I might not, but then you say, "even just fucked hard and/or being come all over," so there's no longer any ambiguity. I think it's terrible that you would presume to know something about me from my taste in porn. You don't know me, and you certainly don't know why I like looking at certain sexual acts on film. For all you know I could be watching a girl being ejaculated on and fantasizing that I was that girl. You just don't know. You are not in my head, and because I never claimed to like seeing women treated like shit, I don't think you should assume that that is what drives me. You don't know what goes on in my head when I watch porn, and I don't like that you think you understand my motives. yes, I realise it was a generalisation, but I stand by it. Let me just define 'fucked hard and cum all over'...here i am visualising a woman not just being fucked, but slammed and pummelled agrressively like a piece of meat...then having her face ejaculated on, again, as if a 'thing'. I should have been more specific. What seems to have been missed is that, broadly, I am referring to people here, not solely men, though of course they are the primary consumers of mainstream hetero porn. I can only assume there are some women out there somewhere that enjoy watching other women being cum on, but by and large this is not the case, this material is aimed at men. What i can say is that from the gay porn I've seen, the people on the receiving end are clearly relishing the experience...but in hetero stuff, the eyes say it all. It aint fun for these women, its a job, and overall its degrading. I have never met a woman who enjoys it...and I dotn think it a stretch to say that it is, for all intents and purposes, a degrading act. I was under the impression the cum shot was in porn so that ppl could see/know that the guy had climaxed, but it seems to have become a fetish in its own right, that I (any many others) feel is intertwined with both the overt and implicit belittlement of women. Whilst it is true that i do not know you, and cannot put myself in your shoes, I dont for a monent believe that when you're watching a man ejaculating on a womans face that you're fantasing being the woman. Further, based on the content of your posts in this thread, and several others I've read on the boards (in addition to your admission here of having issues with women), i think it is abundantly clear that your taste in porn is a reflection of deep seated psychological blockages (just as some of my tastes/tendencies are a reflection of mine). If you an admit to having issues with women, why can you not make the connection to your penchant for porn? For a lot of people, porn is a last resort. It is very easy to say, "why not just have real sex," but it's not that easy for everyone. My first kiss was at the age of twenty and, apart from two visits to the brothel not long after I turned eighteen (which, might I add, I found quite unfullfilling), I went my entire teenage years without sex. Now I'm sure a large part of this was because of my social ineptitudes, and in part because I really wanted a real relationship and never actually went out looking for sex, but whatever the reason, porn was a way to...err...um...work off a lot of tension for me. I dont have a problem with porn per se, but I do have a problem with the vast majority of mainstream stuff, especially from a human rights/ethical angle, of which my 'spiritual evolution' stance is a part. My Mum never prevented my brother from looking at porn mags, and as a parent neither would I forbid it. However, i would prefer any sons or daughters of mine, if they so choose, to take in material that involves all parties enjoying themselves, and treated with respect as equals. You say that "only men who have women issues seem to want to do it, or try to...in fact,the times men (cummed on your face) it has been without (your) consent." I think it is unfair to project your bad experiences onto others. I personally would never do anything without a womans consent. And yes I have issues with women...just like I have issues with everything in my life, but it doesn't mean that because I've had bad experiences in my life that I want to hurt or humiliate women. yes, my perpsective is based on my own experience, but it is also based on that of my friends, and of what i have gleaned from various literature. Women talk about sex too you know, its not just a topic for the footy locker room. Over and over again I have heard women, and a couple of gay guys, express the same sentiments as I towards men who have a thing for cumming in their face. It is not uncommon for guys who get alot out of this act to go ahead and do it reagdless of their partners feelings, its like a compulsion and some ppl feel entitled to it. Also, re hurting or humiliating women...many guys are into watching this being done, but would never actually do it themselves. Sure, maybe in a way its good for them to have an outlet for these energies, i can see that...but ethically I dont agree with that kind of porn, and dont think those kind of tastes should be encouraged or even condoned by either the individual or society (here i am referring especially to more blatantly violent material). If one enjoys seeing someone hurt (and Im not aiming this at you ballzac), that is a problem in my opinion, even if one doesnt act on it. The energy itself is problematic in my view, and should be addressed. Also, Im not saying everyone who has bad experiences goes onto enact retribution...but some people do, albeit unknowingly. I feel that if one gets a kick out of habitually watching material that almost always depicts women (or men) as submissive or as objects...then there are issues there that are worth exploring. There is work to be done. But as far as issues go...man, Im the baggage carousel at Heathrow! I know i can come across arrogant and holier-than-thou, but Im as full of shit and brokenness as the next person. I have my own sexual issues, believe me. In my limited experience, I have never been with a girl who likes having cum on her face, but on the odd occasion I have been told I'm allowed smile.gif. However, I have been with girls who like anal sex, and who like swallowing cum, and who like being pissed on, so I find it hard to believe that there aren't a lot of girls out there who like a lot of kinky things. who said there was anything 'wrong' with kinky? FYI I love anal sex, enjoy a little bondage, toys, and...yes, I swallow. Dont presume to know what goes on in my head or in my bed. I can understand Torsten's position, because it is one of human rights and relates to the way women are treated by the porn industry. You on the other hand are just saying that the only reason people like certain things is because they are fucked up. Not very fair. I personally don't like seeing scatological porn or bondage, but I'm not going to say that anyone who likes being shitted on is a sick person who has issues relating to poo. Different strokes for different folks. I never said anyone was 'fucked up'. But I do believe that certain 'tastes' reflect psychological 'maladjustment' or dysfunctionality. Which is not necessarily to say that these particular tastes are inherently bad or unhealthy. I would definantly say that someone who is into scatological porn has issues with defecation...so what? Does that make them a bad person? I certainly dont think so...does that mean they're sick? Not any more than I am for wanting to be tied up and blindfolded, or to have anal sex which is clearly lacking in 'biological salience'. Cum is nutritious, but from a Darwinian perspective there is no reason why i should enjoy my partner coming in my mouth...but i do. Just because I view some behaviours as representing 'maladjustment', doesnt mean I see them as 'bad'. But I can see, in myself, that some of the things that turn me on are surface manifestations of dynamics that developed out of dysfunctional interactions with my mother and father. They have roots in deep seated 'imbalances'...very very deep areas I am not usually aware of or able to consciously access. I am no Buddhist monk, no ascetic, and I do not claim to be...I do things pruely for the pleasure of them, even when I know they are not truly nourishing...but I am getting better at disciplining myself. Eating for pleasure is an issue for me...and I have had to overcome weight issues in the past. For me, eating has become connected to a constellation of feelings and strangled emotions tied to the way i learnt to relate. It is also connected to the way I have used some drugs (dependency), and some of my attitudes and sexual preferences. Whilst i enjoy some relatively unorthodox sexual practices, some I will not reveal here, and do not see any of them as inherently bad or 'sick' in and of themselves, on another level I am slowly becoming aware that where my energy goes when i perform these acts is ultimately not in my best interests. Its not about feeling guilty, because I dont (in fact partners have commented upon how open i am to experimenting relative to them)...its not about morals...for me it is about where the energy goes or 'pools' when I allow my being to 'morph' in certain directions. For myself, I feel that to heal I need to direct more of some energies towards my heart and away from my head and base chakra. On the other hand, there are soem finer energies that seem to have been 'scared away' from my base chakra and head, and have become congested elsewhere. When I get into the dark side of my sexuality, which can be pretty potent, I can feel that there are much more beneficial ways for me to expend that energy. It can be put to better use. I can admit that my tone in soem of my posts can be arrogant and patronising...I have self-esteem and ego issues (also related to my tendency towards submissive behaviour, and the flip side dominating/bossy aspects). But please, I am not saying that anyone is 'fucked up', I am not condemming anyone. It seems we actually agree that attachment to porn is not spiritually evolved....and I am not claiming to be. However, I do not think it overly egotistic of me to refer to my accumulated experiences, to the obstacles i have overcome, to my strengths and weaknesses, to the progress i feel i have made in getting to know myself, to heal myself, in this argument. I have come a long way, and I think I have enough experience to make comment and express my opinion, even if it is judgemental or if i make generalisations about other ppls behaviour from my vantage point. We all make up our minds, we all judge and presume things based on who we are at a given point, and the experiences we have had. I do not belive anyone can claim access to the truth or objectivity. I agree that "hetero porn is limited to certain types". I have always been bugged by the obsession with shaving in porn, and if you try to find porn with unshaved women, then you invariably find porn with 'unnatural' quantities of hair, a fetish in itself. I think women are most atractive with lots of hair, but it has to be in the right places for me. But this is just my taste, and in reality, like any industry, the porn industry finds a compromise between all the most popular tastes, and it ends up looking very mediocre and superficial. It's not much different to the music industry. Most radio stations basically play the same boring popular stuff, but if you look hard you can always find stuff that doesn't conform so much. But I find it strange that you say that "the image of a fertile, healthy, empowered woman is antithetical to what most hetoro porn is about", as I think generally part of the fake aspect of porn is to make women appear more healthy/fertile than they actually are. Whether it is increasing the size of pupils (and other features) in photos, or using make up to cover blemishes in a film scene, most pornography tries to make the women seem very fertile and healthy. A lot of porn also portrays the women as being in power. A lot of guys get off on this. There is a big market out there for 'milf' porn as well. Milf generally referring to women in their early thirties to mid forties, and also a market (albeit smaller) for 'granny' porn. As for "women who look like girls", like I said I don't find shaved women as attractive as women with a healthy amount of hair, I can certainly say that something along the lines of an attractive young woman in pigtails wearing a school uniform and licking a lolipop will really turn me on. It doesn't mean I want to have sex with children but, for me, there is something undeniably erotic about an adult being presented that way. What is wrong with that? Yes, I am well aware of all the 'flavours' available...but by and large the vast majority of hetero porn has a certain look or feeling about it...and it reflects prevailing attiudes, which as far as I can see involve the suppression/dismissal of certain aspects of the feminine. And please, im talking prevailing or orthodox here, and i realise that it is often impossible to define distinct boundaries! Whilst efforts are made to make women look healthy in mainstream porn, I do not agree that the women come across empowered, or even happy. They looked pained alot of the time, pained and tired...it is in the eyes, and often subtle. Like one film I saw once of this tiny asian woman who was masturbating with a couple of dildos...she was smiling and talking sweetly to the camera, but it was clear she was is pain, in alot of discomfort, but was valiantly retaining her composure. Her eyes were so sad, it was awful...but she obviously had quite alot of experience hiding her feeelings...and it seems thats what most porn actors do. On this forum, and elsewhere where alternative types express their views, ppl are always banging on about how fucked up mainstream society is, the government is, how fucked up 'we' are. People 'like us' are always bemoaning the destruction of nature, the rampant consumerism and consumption of modern western culture, neo-colonialism, agression, war, or complaining about how Moslems treat their women, or about how US foreign policy treats the rest of the world. As John Lennon famously sang, 'woman is the nigger of the world'. The destruction of nature, the domination of nature in all its forms, etc etc...the suppression of the feminine is part of this...it is endemic in our society...in us...in you, in me. I catch myself being sexist, like when i assume a member is a guy, or read something impressive and am surpirsed to find a woman wrote it! Seeing women as true equals, seeing myself as truly equal in a male dominated society/world, on male dominated forums...can be a challenge. A great deal of the time we are not aware of it, we are not participating directly or actively....we do not see our prejudice because often we do not know any different. So I say that mainstream porn is a reflection of the dominant forces in society...and the dominant forces today give us what? Look around. You know it. Why feed it? People so often criticise the mainstream and its values here, but some dont seem to be able to identify 'conventional' porn (howver defined) as part and parcel of the orthodoxy..... There is alot of sickness in the world, alot of suffering and pain....we all need healing. I dont want ppl to feel guilty, but I do think people should take responsibility...not just where their money goes, but where their energy goes too. Even little things have an impact, on yourself, on your loved ones, on your reality. I am not arguing that porn is evil, or wrong, or sick any more that i, myself, is evil, wrong or sick. But the truth is I am thse things...those are aspects of my being, my world. I also believe I can contribute, no matter how insignificantly, to shifting energies to a 'higher frequency'...though I may trip and err along the way. And I often do. So if the things I have said have upset you, offended you, angered you etc etc...ask yourself what the real reason is. Is it because I am being a bitch, have been patronsing, made assumptions and sweeping generalisations? Yes, it probably is....but is it also because I have touched a nerve, and that I am saying some things you'd rather not hear, rather not think about?