bogfrog

I appreciate the clarity and groundedness of what you are saying, but personally I take issue with lumping belief in supernatural forces/manifestations into the same category as tradition and mythology, and the labelling of this as basing your existance on nothing at all, I find it kind of insulting, not terribly so, but I just consider it to be a little too reductionist for me not to pipe up. Most people I know (myself included) who believe in things which would currently be classed as supernatural, do not have this belief because it has been passed onto them through story and tradition, we believe these things because of personal experience which cannot be explained or understood within the scientific paradigm. Often these experiences have such a pronounced effect that they call into question the validity of following consensus view, when what you have experienced with your own body, your own mind and your own eyes does not find validation in the world around you. Some like to jump immediately to labelling such experiences as neurological or perceptual dysfunction, which I will not rule out, but if we are to be realistic, humans have ALWAYS been encountering things we cannot easily explain, and if we disregarded all of these experiences as meaningless I doubt we could have developed this far as a race. So if something is labelled 'super natural', it goes beyond our established consensus of what is natural, or what is scientifically understood, but since when has scientific evidence been the be all and end all of reality? Science works on hypothesis to establish probable causes for things which earlier we could not understand. There are many many things which had previously been considered supernatural, which we now feel we have a sufficient scientific understanding of to classify as natural. So really, by that token, why can't it be presumed that there are things that are considered supernatural now, but may in future be understood to such an extent that we accept them as natural? I recently had a discussion with my dad along similar lines, he gave an example of early civilisations believing that natural forces, such as say, a volcano, were embued with the spirit of a god or a deity, and this was logical for them to believe because they had no better explanations for the phenomenon they observed. When the volcano erupted their belief would be that they had angered this 'god', but really the resulting activity was due to the rising of magma in response to increased pressure underneath the surface of the earth. I accept this notion, its all good and well, but personally I have more faith in the mysterious nature of the universe, than I have faith in science to sufficiently elucidate these mysteries to such an extent that humans can safely say we understand them. My thoughts in response to what my dad said were along these lines, well yes, the volcano may be a natural phenomenon, which we can observe and explain the natural forces and factors which are evident, but to me this is only one half of the picture. I think it seems quite plausible that a certain kind of energy could build up around a volcano throughout its lifetime that may have an effect on those who come into its field of influence, and this energy may have the capacity to interact with the consciousness of those tribes. I don't mean to say that the volcano is a god, or neccesarily a sentient being, but rather that it may contain certain configurations of energy and modes of activity that can teach those who live around it certain lessons. The Maori word for spirit is 'wairua', which translates literally to 'two rivers', indicating that the forces matter and spirit are intertwined, always flowing together, and one stream cannot exist without the other. If we are to limit our focus to their world of observable matter and scientific exploration, we are cutting ourselves short.

*bump*

When you have unknowingly spent all day with a piece of glass in your foot and when you finally take off that sock to see what's causing that unruly zing, the glass fragment is right there at the surface, easy as to pull out. Phew. The odds of this being so straightforward after walking on it all day are unbelieveable. When your best buddy in the whole world comes to see you, fills your heart and mind with joy and hope for the best possible future imaginable, and you know beyond all doubt that you are supported and loved and cared for and you see the synergistic creative power of your combined wills. And then she leaves you with artworks, poems and stories to adorn your walls with and warmth in your heart. When your cat is really really happy and just overflowing with all the love, smoochy kitty. When you have faith that even though there are hard times, things can and will improve. When things are nice, and you feel happy.

Artworks by Agata Kawa:

Fucking hell Sally, that's pretty rough. Glad you're okay and didn't get picketed by the little shithead.

Aww.. Get some decent ear plugs. I only have roosters who don't know what time dawn starts to deal with, but ear plugs are goood. Good luck.

I'm inclined to think we are indeed part alien. David Icke should NOT be the only voice on this topic. If I'm an alien I'm quite sure I'm not of the reptilian shape shifting variety. Believe me, I had tried to shape shift and I couldn't get it to work. I knooooow we can't answer these questions. That is clear. The only philosophy I have studied was introduction to epistemology, which taught me I cannot be certain of anything, other than the flimsy notion that I appear to exist at this moment. So don't get me wrong peeps. This is not a cry for reassurance. I don't care that I don't know and can't know. But that doesn't make me any less interested in exploring the possibilities. And that's all they are. Possibilities. Is it better to hold no possibilities in mind, than some that you know you can never be sure of?

^ Yes! Which is why it's fun to consider. No need for serious masks, or any masks at all. There may be as many answers as there are individuals, and none of them can be difinitively true, because we each uphold a personal reality, so make of the question what you may, there's no attachment to outcomes, I'm sure we're all beyond that point, but regardless of this inevitable uncertainty and intangibility, why not ask? Why can't it just be considered game? What harm could come of it? I have no idea where we are going. As I said with what I stated in the 'why are we here thread', I have two opposing world views living in my head. One is very connected to what Sally said, the rise of the machines and the fall of human power. But largely I think we have a influential role to play in this scenario, are we so innately self destructive that it has always been our intent to create artificial intelligence which will rapidly surpass us, perhaps enslave us, or perhaps just give us benign tasks and lives which appear to have purpose while the machines go about the real work? The second one, well, I don't know how to talk or write about that yet. Maybe I will get there sometime. I will try, that's for sure.

Halycon, yeah I do get pretty pronounced ups and downs, which is as you say, a part of life. I guess that's what makes it interesting. When I was a child, I really did not want to be here, and for a long time I thought there was no point in being here at all. Now that I have had some more time to experience the good things in life, and had enough understanding of the not so good things that I developed the will to create changes, at the very least in my own life, and through the way my behaviour affects the lives of the people close to me, I am happy to be here. I propose this as a question to you all because it is of interest to me as a question, and your responses are of interest to me as a..I suppose, as an athropology enthusiast. Human culture is interesting because we are all a part of it, we create it through our thoughts and our actions. We may be individuals, and our influence may be very small, but we are still a part of the whole, so what we think does matter. I think there are some universalities in the cause for our existence as a race, and there are also individual "quests" which we each uncover in the course of our life time. This is my personal view at this point in time: I see two opposing paradigms which have existed in my mind, and I sometimes fall into stream A. when things get rough, but in general I lean towards stream B. A. the nihilistic view, that there is little to no meaning for our existence, that this is a pointless exersize in differentiated conciousness, and there's no challenges to overcome, no responsibility for living in a healthy, fulfilling way, and nothing to look forward to. Then there is B. B. is the stream I commit myself to. That we are here to uncover the fullness of the human experience. That every experience we have enables us to develop as individuals, who exist in a collective network, which is always exchanging information. I have come to develop the point of view that humans are fundamentally divine beings. This divinity is not expressed in most cases, and is only fully expressed by a very very very small number of people. But the core potential, I believe, is the same. Someone once gave me the metaphor of carving, or sculpting. We all begin with a block of stone, and gradually throughout our lives little fragments of this stone are shaved off. Some people work steadfastly at carving their stone, every day chipping away at the things that sheild them from knowing who they truly are. Others might not carve much off their block at all, they might carry the fears and sorrows and expectations of others with them through their entire lives, never uncovering their potential to be any different than they are. Some might live like this for a long time, and then an intensive experience may shake them up enough that they begin peeling off the layers that had them blinded. I think the progress does not need to follow a consistent, linear progression. I think a lot can be shaved off in a very short period of time, and maybe the reverse situation can occur, maybe someone can carve themselves into an exquisite sculpture, and then without truly realising what they are doing, rapidly begin layering concrete over themselves. ..tbc.. Just had a guest arrive..

Sure thing! I'm watching and waiting on a few pods, so will be in touch when they are ready for you Will take pics of the blooms too as few more have sprung forth

No? Just thinking..more than usual. It's an Aquarius full moon, AND a blue moon at that!

No existential crisis here mate... Well, nothing out of the ordinary anyway. I just reckon nows a good a time as any for pondering things that we know we can never really answer for certain, but we may find clues along the way which help give our lives meaning. And people seem to have their thinking caps on, which is better than playing Internet tyrant so I like to encourage more thinking with more q's. big Q's.

Nah nah nah...totally didn't mean it like that! I was just thinking aloud, or rather in text. Not a defensive, just an aloud query of 'well do this and I know it's not entirely ideal'. Thinking about these things is one thing, making alterations to behaviour and future choice processes is a good next step right? Was more just using your thoughts as a diving board as they stuck out to me in the context of my evenings activities. This topic is deep water. Swimming in elephants indeed...

Psssh... Graft whenever you damn well feel like it. The 'too cold' claim is bullshit in my (maybe not so) humble southern opinion. I live in a climate where 13-15 degrees in the day and 5-7 degrees at night is normal spring/summer temps. When I was grafting mad I was grafting on trichos all year round with 80% success rates. Do it when you feel in the mood to, I say anyway.

You say 'I digress', I say please continue. Who cares where this goes. I am fascinated by it all.Likes are insufficient for thanking you each for your thoughts. I won't reply to everything but I'm riveted. Fuck you guys are awesome. I'm glad I have Internet friends to learn from. Life would be much smaller otherwise.

Hey Thunder two of your point set me off thinking: Yes. Indeed. But haven't we all heard those stories from indigenous cultures regarding respectful and sustainable use of animals, honouring the spirit of the animal as it is killed, prayer for its safe passage to the spirit realm, clever and creative use of every part of the carcass to make various items as well as using it for food. I think this was the case for a long time, until greed and abundance got the better of us, and we stopped truly valuing what we had been gifted by life and instead considered it entitlement. I don't know, maybe those stories are just fairy tales we like to repeat so we feel better about ourselves. Often I hear stories of Maori ancestors living in harmony with the land, only taking what was needed and always giving back, but its painfully clear this wasn't always the case when you consider the simple fact of the way they over hunted the moa to extinction. The moa population was supposedly 58,000 when ancestors of Maori arrived. They were completely wiped out in just over 140 years. Moa burial pits have been discovered which show that usually the only meat taken was the legs. The rest of the carcasses were often entirely untouched, why? Because the meat from the legs was the tastiest. So theres clearly some kind of insidious sense of entitlement which predisposes us to dominate other animals, yet something tells me there are ways of utilising the available power of other lifeforms without abusing and disrespecting them. Which brings me to the other point. No. But if I speak honestly, its where I find myself. Who I am I to be high and mighty, I rarely eat meat but I ate butter chicken for dinner tonight and I can safely assume that the chicken was factory farmed, which is slavery of animals, which I am against, yet I support it by giving my money vicariously to the industry, so that makes me a hypocrite.Is it worth any penance that I love the chickens at my own house very dearly and take great pleasure in tending them, feeding them, telling them I love them and remarking on how cute they are, how shiny and beautiful their feathers are? I would probably eat one of them if it was killed and prepared because I know it had a happy life, but I am a squeamish wimp and certainly couldn't kill one myself, let alone dismember it. Where do we want to be collectively??? If we accept that we are animals too, then what right do we have to abuse and enslave other species? Does our use need to be abuse? What about plants? I know this is already a very broad conversation, but use may come of comparison made. I see monoculture and especially genetic engineering of plants as abuse. But growing a diverse vege garden with love and care and harvesting those plants for food is not abusive in my mind, especially if we have the good sense to collect seeds and ensure the continuation of the species. I'm baffled by the expansiveness here. I will just stop.

Sorry I missed ya bday Sally, hope it was a very lovely time filled with life-affirming delights. From what you have said about your kids I don't see how it could possibly be otherwise.

Who else thinks we should be applying these ideas in creating an sab-seeded school?

I'd really like to clarify that the context in which this line of thinking arose (in a class) was only the starting point for these thoughts. The tutor certainly wasn't making claims either way, the point of the exersize was to describe the nature of the mineral, plant, animal and human kingdoms.. Sure something is implied by the fact of there being a human kingdom, but they certainly weren't trying to tell us we are not animals. This consensus arose amoung the class who were discussing it, and it wasn't so much stated as "we AREN'T animals", but rather "we are definitely different from animals because..." And to give fully deserved credit to the tutor he acknowledged the value of my continual rebuttal of the points others were making regarding animals as being inferior to us, and also the fallibility of having two such classifications, but for the point of the discussion, these lines were there. That was the context which spurred off my thoughts, and the recognition that in general, a lot of people do really like to think we are not animals. I have to say I have ultimate respect for this tutor, and while I found the responses of my classmates perturbing, it was a particularly enjoyable and thought provoking time to be had. Just had to clear that up okay. The original context was just the starting point, and I was not in an environment which had enough time available to explore this further. Hence why I bring it here. Thank you all for your thought provoking responses. I have more pondering to do before I can appropriately respond other than this.

Makes sense, yes, but if this were the way, it should always be open to those who haven't really connected with it yet. Perhaps this would even work better than encouraging everyone to begin at the same time. Instead of trying to hold restless children in that space where they would be distracting others, who might be more naturally engaged, let them run free. I feel it should be optional, yet open to anyone always, because once a programme is established, the benefits will speak for themselves. And children often listen to their peers more seriously than someone they know is paid to tell them that something is a good thing for them to do. Imagine the busy-body kid who would much rather be running around in the woods than quietly sitting in a room. One day a friend who had spent the last year learning meditation techniques might tell him of an experience he had while meditating, sparking forest-boy's interest. Then forest-boy can be welcomed to explore his internal woods, and likely will do so with fervent interest as he has been able to come to it in his own time and for his own reasons. Great thread, thank you.

It's a difficult question. Because A. There are things we need to learn as a species, heart-centred social dispositions, but B. there's a risk in only teaching these things because the current society we live in is harsh and cruel, so there are a multitude of modern survival skills needed too. We need peaceful warriors. Those who are brave to stand up for their own truth, and won't be easily usurped by the current authorities. I think all teenagers should have the opportunity to learn Qi gong. It's benefits are multifaceted, not only does it help to generate a calm clarity in the mind, it sharpens the mind. It shows you where your limitations are and helps you flow through them. It replenishes the health of the physical body and removes reliance on prescriptive medicine. It strengthens the spirit, aiding intuition, instinct, insight. It teaches discipline and commitment, and shows one first hand how to and why you should respect your elders. (And I mean real elders, not just people who are chronologically older than you, people who are wise in the ways of both worlds) Qi gong puts your power back in your own hands. Everyone should have the opportunity to try that.

How to meditate. How to grow food. How to care for animals, and perhaps farm them on a small scale in high school. How to interact respectfully with other people. What is abusive or neglectful behaviour. (I know it's generally taught, but not always, could be a real eye opener for some kids to have confirmation that their parents are treating them unfairly.) How idealistic are we talking here? How to build a small house. How to survive in the bush for a month with minimal physical preparation (mental preparation is the best) How to manage money & other more tangible resources in such a way that one could escape the rat race. Negotiation skills. How to generate free electricity.

It can be noted that nature is characterised by brutal competition, but someone/something (I can't remember what now) once pointed out to me that this competitive battle between life forms is infact what allows everything to live. The example given was the relationship between antelopes and lions. If the lions were not present to keep the antelope population supressed to a certain extent, then the antelopes would breed themselves into extinction, exhausting the available food supply and decimating their own species through unchecked growth. The lions allow the antelope to survive by hunting them. Perhaps this is the human races problem. We have so few natural predators.

I've seen this before but it's sooo very worth a second viewing. Fuck they are beautiful. Makes me regret not collecting echninopsis all this time. What I find most spectacular is the seamless shifts in colour that take place. Some kinda magic that's fer sure.