Inyan

Nice specimens George. And valid points to you Garbage and George. I guess my long winded approach to this whole matter is more simply stated as: Wherever you have people or people interested in a cacti... that very interest or even lack of interest in the area will often directly or inadvertently affect what is there. My personal preference is for little to no spines when it comes to grafting or sacraments. For pure aesthetics though, I'd love to see red spines and a lavender 12 inch wide flower with hints or rose at the edges with the strength of ten horses.

Mutant, You are right on the money with many Brugmansia, but not all Brugmansia. A general good rule of thumb is that there are general rules and they are meant to be broken and not taken as always true. Most of the time, some of the time, many times, but never all of the time.... unless your referring to death and taxes and even then I've heard tales of people cheating death and or taxes. Cats have nine lives and all that jazz. Trust me, B. aurea Rothkirch, B. aurea Quinde, and many others are harder to root than your everyday average Brugmansia. B. sanguinea, B. flava, B. vulcanicola are also notoriously more difficult. Mind you, much of this is due to certain Brugmansia cultivars being more susceptible to virus, bacteria, etc. Places like Gommer's pay to have their stock cultured virus free when they become infected and can thus keep selling some of the hot sellers that people like a bit faster than others as they are easier to root when healthy. Go figure that one. The problem arises when those virus prone specimens find their way into the average person's collection and disease sets in. Personally, I think many of these more disease prone Brugmansia should exist only in a hybridizers garden with the specific aim of keeping whatever trait or traits are worthwhile to keep while breeding for stronger Brugmansia at the same time.

Yep, I think I saw the word blend and immediately started thinking of admixtures instead of hybridizing. Funny, considering hybridizing is always on my mind. http://www.echinopsis-hybriden-ag.de/ "Who are we? We are a working group of the German Cactus Society and presently have approximately 148 members in Germany, Australia, Belgium, Dutch, Italy, Switzerland, Hungaria, Slovakia and the USA. What do we do? We are concerned solely with hybrids. In particular with hybrids from the genera Echinopsis, Helianthocereus, Hildewintera, Trichocereus and others. We cross plants within a genus but also plants between different genera for example Echinopsis x Trichocereus. Thus we create the most beautiful hybrids for ourselves. Publications? Our Journal of Hybrids is published three times annually. Experienced hybridizers as wells as beginners report on their experiences with hybrids. Our journal also contains at least 10 - 12 DIN A4 color pages in each issue. And, on a regular basis our members offer extra seed to other members. You can see 10 pages of Trichocereus hybrids and a few pages or echinopsis hybrids here."

Well said Michael. Your still the cactus god in many people's eyes so don't let it get you too bent. Looks like the more you learn and share the more someone wants to impress another by showing another up. At least thats my take on the matter. Could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time. Enough said.

Are you talking about preparations such as cimora? http://www.botany.org/plantsciencebulletin/psb-1972-18-4.php "The identity of some of the cimora drink additives we know — and we know that several of them may indeed be of themselves potently hallucinogenic. Of others we know phytochemically nothing. In Peru, Neorailnondia macroslibus may sometimes be an additive (8). No chemical analysis of this large columnar Andean cactus has been made. Also occasionally added to the drink in Peru is Isoloma longiflora. a member of the Campanulaceae, a family with known psychoactive principles (8). The euphorbiaceous Pecli/anthit.s lilhvntaloide.s. likewise frequently used as an admixture, is highly aromatic as a result of organic acids (8). Some Peruvian medicine men add condorillo, a species of Lvcopodium (6). In view of the recent discovery in this pteridophyte genus of unusual types of alkaloids, this report has exceptional interest. Reports that a tree-species of Dalnra may be added to cimora can be easily understood because of the strongly hallucinogenic character of this solanaceous genus rich in tropane alkaloids (8). In addition to the species mentioned above, at least one other unidentified plant, known in eastern Peru as hornanto, is employed in preparing cimora (6)." http://www.amazon.com/Shadows-Sun-Travels-...972&sr=11-1

Hybrid x Hybrid is only worth while if you select for what you wish to achieve or desire in beauty and or strength. This takes time. There are and will always be purists who want something that breeds true as it is often that those that are pure in species that vary the least from each other when crossed to each other. Consistency of form, strength, etc. to a lesser or greater degree is often wanted by purists; although, most purists will agree that after growing several hundred or more pure forms of the same type that they are better able to see differences in even these pure specie forms. Another good reason for growing pure species... it helps to sharpen the eye for later selection of desirable traits and an even more uniform pure species. Now, then there are those who are not purists and these people often fall into the lumper category as well, but not always. For this person, they might seek a particular group of traits such as blue skin, larger flower, short spines, potency, etc. as being most important. Those people tend to make multiple crosses within a particular species group to get the traits they most desire into one cacti or plant and take genes from outside the species or genus when they can be found quicker in this way. Again, the more varied the parentage becomes the more varied the seedlings become and the more one has to have a sharp eye that is found in the purists possession naturally and acquired by the lumper via simply growing out large numbers of crosses and keeping track of the parentage and noting which ones are most desirable. I'm a lumper and a splitter. A bit confused at times Bit, but in the end what matters most to me is form, fragrance, flower, and potency. I'd love to see what could be produced if we simply had a few individuals each with a different set of goals in their hybridizing program with one or two points in common. If there is a maximum ceiling for a particular trait, it would be nice to see if tetraploids could extend that natural ceiling as has happened with many plants which have been doubled... resulting in new or more marked changes in phenotype due to the increase in genotype.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that anyone who collects cacti for use in ceremonies may do so with a reason. If he or she notices that one particular cacti in his stand is stronger it goes to reason that he might choose to cultivate more of this particular cacti via cuttings. Another might realize that seeds are produced and that seeds are how plants and cacti often reproduce. He or she might be smart enough to figure this out on their own as they might know someone who grows corn, etc. from seed.... Whatever the case might be, selective propagation and or intentionally breeding cacti, I have to believe that there will be one odd ball out of the many that might chose either or both methods to increase their potential and whether that potential is measured in quantity or quality is something that may vary from individual to individual. Some medicine men seem to take pride in their medicines and as such might covet a particular clone more than another. Over time, natural hybrids between these selected clone types could very well happen regardless of intent. Every hybridizer hybridizes what they have available if that is what they like to do. They may not hybridize everything they have available, but they will hybridize what they have available as it is impossible to hybridize with a pollen you do not have. With that said, simply creating a stand of one particular cultivar will affect the genetics of the population surrounding the area given enough time and enough cultivars. I like to think of it this way. If I have 15 Brugmansia to start with and I notice that two are exceptional at making me happy then I will perhaps get rid of the other 13 over time as I might become bored with them. The other two... grown in close proximity are more likely to have seeds that are hybrids of the two simply as they are grown in close proximity to each other. That is not to say a few of the neighbors Brugmansia may not have pollinated mine via moths, etc. Just that it is highly probable that crosses that form do so in larger numbers from those plants that are closest to each other. So, while this may not be intentional hybridizing... growing 15 different clones in a small area increases the odds that you will have hybrids form between them... especially so if they bloom at the same time. Now, with hybrids that bloom at different times of day or different months... you can not rely on nature to do this for you. You must collect, dry, and freeze the pollen yourself for later use. This is why some hybrids are not possible in nature. They are simply too far away to cross naturally via geographic barriers, time constraints, etc. and thus a cross that might be highly unlikely to yield seed in the wild, but nevertheless capable of producing seed is not seen. Simply put, I can see truth in all of these things happening as there are just too many people and too many years involved for one not to have been a collector and another not to have been a hybridizer. It doesn't need to be cultural, just individual in nature. One individual takes pride in his medicine that is substantially stronger or different in a way that is desirable to all and shares this medicine with others. Selectively propagating a plant leads to its selectively altering the gene pool no mater how you dice it. You can call it intentional or unintentional...., but if I never put a single bit of pollen from one cacti to another and I have a field of a single clone of macrogonus all planted in rows where every other cacti is either a pachanoi or a peruvianus for something like the following row... macrogonus... peruvianus.... macrogonus.....pachanoi.... macrogonus....peruvianus....macrogonus....pachanoi.... then if you assumee that I am only utilizing 3 total clones all vegetatively propagated to make these rows that even though I have not set a single seed intentionally... that if any seed should arise from this small clumping of rows that perhaps they might be hybrids between these three clones that were selected for whatever reason they were selected. Resulting wild specimens from seed from these crosses might prove useful in my hunts as well and I might chose to revisit a patch that carries characteristics that excel from those found in my own patch. Thus, I have added a fourth set of genes into my unintentional breeding grounds. I may value this stand I have grown for its potency more than those I find in the wild and thus I utilize those in the wild for healing ceremonies of a larger scale while I utilize those cacti in my personal stand for personal use or perhaps for use with other medicine men only. This depletes the natural gene pool of the wild immediately surrounding my area while increasing the chances that cacti found many years or generations down the road will bear more and more in common with my stand. As my stand becomes larger.... more selection is done as my grandson finds a much stronger cacti in a not to distant area as he has had to travel further and further away to find cacti for the community. He revisits that area and adds another cacti to our sacred grove. I'm not saying this happens, I'm just putting it out there as this is what I would do and I don't consider myself nearly as intelligent as the myriad of people who have come before me. Now, do I tell my friends or researches about my special Culebra or Pachanoi stand? Or do I show them the variety that will still impress them from the local area that I utilize for the common ceremonies?

Teotz, I must confess that sometimes I've gotten my best idea's from stupid. If you know this fellow, keep him around. Its often times the experts that get so ingrained into thinking that this or that is the only way or dream become fixed in another's idea or research without ever realizing the absurdity of it all. Just ask the plants, they'll confirm they know more than we think we think we know. To that end of helping stupid, I've often researched stupid idea's and come to find out, they were already done and proven valid by somebody even stupider than stupid was at the time thus proving stupid wasn't the stupidest. Ignorance is bliss except where it is dangerous.

http://s292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/su...gsparadis4e.jpg http://www.myspace.com/lilcrowdog http://www.youtube.com/user/sunkakangi This is some of my family. Just thought I would share their web sites with you. We share kinship, not necessarily views and not necessarily excluding views. We are each our own person. Respect that. Now, I chose to share these things here as I'm proud of my cousins. In a world torn by racism, we are a family that excludes no race as the members of our family are by blood, all races. It is time we come to realize that family is family and the red road is a path like any other. Our hearts all bleed the same color. Ego, ethnocentrism, arrogance, all of these things must go and in their place let their be respect, love, humility, equality, and a common bond of unconditional acceptance of each other for none of us are without fault. Family has many connotations, both blood and otherwise, and no family is perfect just as no human is perfect. This is a bit of how I perceive the world. Wrong or right, I'm sharing a bit of who I am with you guys here. And yes, I realize I look like hell, but you might too if you just came down from a vision quest. That picture is an old one of me some 15+ years ago.

Micromegas, Funny, I've read those books many times myself years ago and never made those same connections. Very insightful. As for our perceptions and how we perceive reality... we are taught how to perceive reality, ourselves, etc. This is a fundamental truth that doesn't require any insight to understand. One person's culture teaches him to perceive his role as a male in society as this. Another has different rules. Its very simple. What is funny is that you can intellectually understand this and have it never sink in. Either you trivialize it and you miss the point or you make it seem more than it is and miss the point. This understanding of how your perception of reality is shaped and of yourself often begins to become unglued in in a way that you are not aware that your perception has been altered and your old perceptions co-mingle back and forth so that neither is who you are or what you perceive all the time. These are the subtle shifts that go unnoticed by many. Then of course you have the shifts that are perceived as much larger as generally these shifts are more at odds with your old way of perceiving. As you allow your perception to be molded to a different culture or way then there comes a time when these larger shifts are felt and you realize that perception includes feeling, thought, being, etc. Its hard to put into words, but its ridiculously simple and profound at the same time. A vision quest, as it was explained to me, works by tiring the mind and body. You become so tired of listening to your own internal dialogue that is your reality and at the same time you are fighting with this you that wants to come down, relax, eat some ice-cream, etc. All of this tires and literally bores you to the point that your internal dialogue shuts down for large spells of time and you simply see, feel, hear, are.... you simply exist and take it all in without your own thoughts and feelings that are attached to these thoughts, etc. muddling what is really there. This is often when you experience a vision. You feel these shifts in perception on many levels. The other aspect of how a vision quest works, again as explained to me, is that your body utilizes energy to eat, digest, talk, etc. Your mind utilizes energy when it seeks associations that has been taught to it and that are regurgitated when a stimulus that is associated with that teaching comes to bear on your perception. When you stop eating, drinking, thinking, etc... your create a surplus of energy as that energy is not being wasted on those mundane activities of keeping your illusions intact as well as your body... there is a bit more to it, but I won't bore you with the theory behind it. What is important to me is that it is a tool that works. As for sitting for four days, I have heard of this as well, although generally this is only done if one is going to quest in a sweat lodge or one has some other physical condition that would preclude one from questing in the normal manner. At least this is generally true for ones first vision quest. That is not to say that exceptions are not made. I'm personally a firm believe that its not the strict adherence to a set of rules that is important, but rather the understanding of those rules and how they can best be bent to get the results a person needs in a way that is accessible to them at the time. Whether those limits are set by our mind or our body that preclude us from utilizing a particular tool in a particular way... If the mechanics are understood then the experience will be just as valid for that individual and what that individual needs at that time. There are of course die hard traditionalists or purists... choose your pick... I am not one of them, although I have fallen into that trap in the past. I will go into just a bit more though... The 606 prayer ties that one makes that then becomes the outer portion of your altar symbolize your mind as they are your thoughts, the 6 directions, spirit helpers, gifts, etc... There are many levels to truth and I will not go into all of them or claim to know all of the many things each represent. As the prayer ties are unstrung to encircle and become the boundaries of your altar this symbolizes your mind becoming clear and focused as they are no longer a jumble. Each though, perception, thing, etc. produces a connection in our spirit, mind, body, etc. The longer you are in contact with a particular thought, feeling, animal, person, etc. the stronger of an impression or connection one can make and these connections affect us on every level of our being. They can have a positive, negative, neutral influence... You can think of it as a stamp that is imprinted on your soul or mind if you will each time you come in contact with something. This stamp is affected by how that something perceives you as well as how you see it and this is a circle that can be overcome via intent. I'll stop rambling for now, but intent and perception are the keys to many things in my book. The rest can be what it is so long as intent is pure and focused you are less likely to react and instead be able to act. Still, many will argue that the best intentions.... are not always what's best. This is why right perception is so important and the understanding that as long as you are not a tree that has never been human then you can never understand the tree in the same way as it may perceive you if it has never been human. I'm getting into deep waters here and while my analogy may not be the best, if you can see it for what it is... then you will get out of it what you need. Even if that is simply to say that this is all BS. Respect for another's perception, being, etc. and their own need to see how they see as they know no other way. The known, unknown, and unknowable..... Okay, I really am starting to ramble now. What was I talking about? LOL, its all good.

For what its worth Bit, I like the looks of this one and I'd have no qualms at all crossing this one to a pachanoi or macrogonus to see what types of variable seedlings might arise... Breeding for a nice blue-blue cactus would be a very nice goal in my mind. Has anyone compiled a thread of all of the darkest Blue cacti in their collections. It might make for a good contest at any rate as I'm sure a few here are raising seeds or some such or simply collectors such as yourself bit.

Do you have a close up of the calyx and or any seed pod pictures? Plantsoma, without the above... its a bit harder to judge these as what you have in the first picture appears to be a pure Brugmansia aurea species at first glance and believe it or not, a pure aurea is hard to find away from its native land. Seed pods and calyx would give us a more definitive answer as some hybrids can fool the best of us. If it is a pure aurea as I suspect, you have a good find. The other pink Brugmansia has a very strong suaveolens influence with a hint of versicolor. From what I can make out of the calyx on this one, it appears to be a complex multihybrid. My guess, without seeing the pods or the calyx up close is that this one is probably suaveolens x (versicolor x suaveolens) or perhaps something a bit more complex. It really is hard to tell with multi-hybrids regardless as you could also have a suaveolens x cubensis on your hands. The fatter shorter pods on crosses like this generally denote a bit of aurea somewhere in the mix. Crossing these two should give you a field of whites and some exceptional growers. Form of course will very widely as this is not a pure suaveolens. Still, if you love fragrance... my guess is these will also throw out some heavenly scented Brugmansia for you as well. Ideally, you would cross your pink suaveolens multi-hybrid to a pink aurea, pink candida, or even a pink versicolor if you were simply wanting more pinks and hoping for a darker pink. I'm not an ideal kind of person though and would go for the fragrance and that very rare blending of colors that is possible. Your aurea by the way has some exceptional substance to it from what I can tell which is another aurea trait that is good to breed for. This is a good example of a pure aurea seed pod. I'll post another pure aurea pod from a different aurea so you can get a taste for the variation within this species at a later date.

I find beauty in all plants mutant and thus I'm interested in all plants. I like diversity as well and I've been guilty of suffering from quantity of one or two types or categories of plants as while I love them all, I have a hard time not increasing my collections in those that I love the most. I used to grow mandrake along with many others. My collections are gifted away each time I move though and I tend to move around more than the usual. Brugmansia can be very hard to root when they are virus prone... Rothkirch a wild Brugmansia aurea is one that you will find this problem with. B. sanguinea, B. vulcanicola, and hybrids thereof are best air layered in my opinion, but you can root them as well from cuttings. The easiest to root are healthy aurea, suavelolens, candida, aurea x suaveolens, insignis, and versicolor in about that order. Hope this information helps. I'll pull out some medicinal recipes in my books when I get some time. I find many are more afraid of these plants than they should be and others are just the opposite.

Blue and Green, I must confess are quickly becoming favorites of mine. Love those pictures. While you may not know for sure what cross you have... just another good reason to grow out a few of their parents and make the same crosses yourself. Nice.

She is a pretty blue. The true test is in the pudding though and it looks like you have only enough for one pudding so it'll be awhile before you know.

My grandpa used to cure tobacco by hanging it up to dry in the barn and burning some sulfur in it. Never actually seen him do it as it was years after he stopped farming tobacco that I heard that story, but I did some research and came up with this.... http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4362170.html Apparently, there was a method to his madness.

Micromegas, You say just enough to get my interest and leave me hanging. Please, continue.

P. 33 of Brugmansia and Datura by Ulrike and Hans-George Preissel Posted as I have some who wish to know a bit more... "Various Indian varieties and how they are used medicinally by the Indians 'Amaron' (1) Widespread; its leaves were used to treat sepsis and to alleviate rheumatic pains. 'Biangan' (2) Indian name for the varieties of B. x candida that were widespread. Leaves and flowers were pounded and mixed with the feed given to hunting dogs before the start of a hunt so that they would be better able to scent game. 'Buyes' (3" Indian name for the wild specis of B. aurea. Its leaves were pounded to powder and used to alleviate rheumatic pains. 'Munchira' (4) Rare, its tiny, highly poisonous leaves were used to treat rheumatic pains, infestations of worms and as an emetic. It was also used to treat erysipelas (a streptococcal infection). 'Quinde' (5) Best known of all the commercially used varieties. An infusion prepared from its leaves was used both against rheumatic pains and to treat infestations of worms. The leaves were applied to treat sepsis. Leaves, and sometimes flowers as well, were used for their hallucinogenic properties. 'Salaman' (6) The rarest variety, only known from one habitat. Its owner used the leaves along with those of 'Quinde' and 'Culebra' to produce an infusion to bathe limbs and joints that were affected by rheumatism. 'Culebra' (7) Previous varieties have been relatively easy to identify as Brugmansia, but in 1942 a plant was discovered in the Sibundoy Valley that apparently could not be classified in this genus. Its nodding to pendulous flowers, which were greenish white and 6-9 1/2 in (15-24 cm) long, were so deeply slit between the peaks on the edge (three- to four-fifths of the whole length) that they gave the impression of five individual flower petals. The gleaming calyx had almost no hairs and lay tightly around the flower corolla. Only the three to four "teeth" that were produced by teh slit at the mouth seemed to be inflated....the pistil was made up of several individual styles. This distinct pistil was not found in any other Brugmansia.... the mane given to the variety is 'Culebra', which is the translation of the description "mutscuai borrachero" used by the Kamsa Indian. The most literal translation would be "plant of the snake that intoxicates or makes drunk". The term "snake" probably refers to the long, narrow leaf shape of this Brugmansia. In earlier times, because the properties of this plant caused such a major change in consciousness, it was used for prophecy and for learning magical arts. Novices could only be initiated into the secrets of the cult during a state of intoxication. Even today, the Indians prepare an infusion from the leaves to relieve rheumatic pains." end of quote page 34. Page 16 "There were strict rules about the use of Angel's Trumpets-- they were never abused an an intoxicant.... Normally the aim and purpose of the Brugmansia-induced state was to make contact with the gods or spirits of their ancestors.... One reason why Brugmansia was not used a great deal as a hallucinogen was because of the extremely unpleasant effects of these plants. Those who had been affected by it told of terrifying visions of snakes and wild animals, of being extremely frightened and of after-effects that made them ill. For this reason the person who was intoxicated was always watched over by a "guard" who, if necessary, had to protect him from his own uncontrollable outbreaks of anger..... I once had the opportunity of watching how it affected an Indian who wanted to communicate with the spirits of his ancestors. The ghastly scene is so impregnated in my memory that I will never forget it. Soon after drinking Tonga, the man fell into a dull brooding, he stared vacantly at the ground, his mouth was closed firmly, almost convulsively and his nostrils were flared. Cold sweat covered his forehead. He was deathly pale. The jugular veins on his throat were swollen as large as a finger and he was wheezing as his chest rose and sank slowly. His arms hung down stiffly by his body. Then his eyes misted over and filled with huge tears and is lips twitched convulsively for a brief moment. His carotids were visibly beating, is respiration increased and his extremities twitched and shuddered of their own accord. This condition would have lasted about a quarter of an hour, then all these actions increased in intensity. His eyes were now dry but had become bright red and rolled about wildly in their sockets and all his facial muscles were horribly distorted. A thick white foam leaked out between his half opened lips. The pulses on his forehead and throat wer bating too fast to be counted. His breathing was short, extraordinarily fast and did not seem to lift the chest, which was visibly fibrillating. A mass of sticky sweat covered his whole body which continued to be shaken by the most dreadful convulsions. His limbs were hideously contorted. He alternated between murmuring quietly and incomprehensibly and uttering loud, heart-rending shrieks, howling duly and moaning and groaning. This dreadful condition lasted for a long time until gradually the strength of the symptoms abated and peace was restored. Immediately the women hurried over, washed him all over with cold water and made him comfortable on some sheepskins. He then slept for several hours. In the evening I saw the man again when, surrounded by a circle of attentive listeners, he was relating his visions and his talks with the spirits of his ancestors. He seemed to be very tired. His eyes were glassy, his body was limp and his movements were lethargic."' end quote page 17. Personally, I love the aurea the most. Culebra is a very beautiful Brugmansia to have in your collection as well. Quinde is a particularly hard find. Gommer and perhaps a few others are the only ones to have that one to my knowledge as it is extremely hard to root.

B. aurea and B. arborea pure species tend to have the most velvet. Next in line, would by hybrids that have a mixture of these two.. B. candida, B. flava, etc. B. candida = B. aurea x B. versiocolor B. flava = B. arborea x B. sanguinea B. sanguinea in particular suffers from temperatures above 22 degrees celcius or 72 degrees F. and you will find that your flowers are far and few between if the temperatures exceed that range. B. flava tends to be more heat tolerant as do some B. arborea which have been known to survive and flower in more tropical climates like Florida for instance. I understand your problem... my suggestion: Grafting your Brugmansia onto your sanguinea to increase your supply while still maintaining a small collection of one or two pots. I may have a sanguinea grafted to an arborea grafted to a double orange down stairs.... I may also have a few other specimens grafted to other specimens and the like.... Lol, have fun on your travels.

Planthelper, As you are my my neighbor, I do have a few Brugmansia that have not been released yet. If you'd like one or two, I have two that I'd be willing to share with you. Both are pure aurea species and disease free.

Brugmansia and Datura: Angels Trumpets and Thorn Apples by Ulrike and Hans-George Preissel Page 78 "B. sanguinea, B. vulcanicola and their hybrids, you should note the time of pollination on a label and attach this to the flower stalk. Harvest time for the ripe seed will be eight months later.... Brugmansia seed can either be sown fresh or dried." page 78 Page 77 "The fruits of Brugmansia sanguinea and B. vulcanicola need the longest time to ripen. They take up to eight months. In contrast to the other species, you cannot tell whether or not they are ripe from the outside, as their fruit casing remains green and does not dry out. Many a grower has not realized this and, with the best of intentions, left the fruit too long on the plant. After about nine months the seeds will begin to germinate. If they are still in the closed fruit they will die." I know all of this from first hand experience as I have been growing and hybridizing Brugmansia for over a decade..., but I have books on the subject as well as there is no other plant that holds my attention like the Brugmansia does and a few of those books are signed by their authors. I'm a true brugmansia nut.

Thread grafting, now, that is an excellent idea Garbage. I'm not too sure how it would work for anything other than seedlings with Brugmansia, but an excellent idea! I'm just thinking of 40-50 seedlings all thread grafted to the tops of a mature Brugmansia right now... think I may give that one a whirl. Thanks for the idea Garbage. Its much appreciated. As for superglue, I've played with it, but I don't rely on it for anything more complex than sticking my own skin back together after a graft goes wrong.

Brugmansia sanguinea pods... will actually have the seeds germinate inside the pod and the pod will not turn to mush or turn yellow to indicate that the seeds are actively germinating inside the pod itself. So, if you don't time your pick just right you will have many seeds sprouting inside your nice hard green pod! So, with this particular species... plant them right away and keep them moist. Can you let them dry out as well? Yep, but the fresher the better with sanguinea. The picture of the pod... Brugmansia sanguinea.... didn't realize I forgot to post that. Thanks. That seed, a Brugmansia sanguinea seed, was germinating in the pod. Picked just in the nick of time. Any longer and all of my seed would be germinating. Now, if your talking about yellow soft pods from Brugmansia aurea, suaveolens, versicolor, insignis, or candida... yes, this is the best time to pick your seeds with these varieties provided your keeping an eye out for bugs that like to infest at this stage and bore into the seeds themselves. Plant those seeds and none may sprout even though it looks like you have nice healthy seeds on the outside. You can however pick the above species while the pods are still green and hard as well though and plant those seeds. Dry seeds can store for a good bit, but the older they get the fewer seeds will germinate and germination often becomes irregular with increasing age in seed with these species. If you have something that works for you, stick with it.

Auxin, You hit it on the nail actually. This particular photo was taken after a traditional Lakota vision quest. However, that same exact garb was also worn to a sundance later. Yeah, I believe in recycling. Now, as for the pedro comment, I didn't have any pejuta (peyote) on this particular vision quest, but I have partaken of pejuta on other vision quests. You really don't need pejuta to vision as the experience is strong enough by itself for you to vision, but I won't say that it doesn't help either as it can definitely add a synergism to the experience that is quite profound. I'd recommend from my own personal experiences that if you try a vision quest that you do so without pejuta the first time. After that, if you chose to use pejuta or not, I'd recommend that you wait till the 3rd or 4th day of your vision quest before you partake of any medicines. For me, it was good to have the varied experiences that each of these methods gave and I'd recommend it to anyone who had a serious desire to research it further before blindly saying I'd like to try that. Its one of the hardest things I've ever done. I'd say it was one of the hardest ceremonies I've ever done, but if you don't have a strong background in the Lakota path you wouldn't have anything to compare it to. Now, as for the shoes, I wish I was allowed to wear those while I was actually questing as the fire ants were a bit annoying. Unfortunately, your not allowed to kill anything while your questing, so you just brush them off with your sage if you get really annoyed with the biting. Most will typically stand for their first vision quest without food, water, or sleep for anywhere between 2-4 days. The most typical vision quest lasts 4 days and after completing a 4 day vision quest you can generally opt for other harder methods of questing. Some people go on multiple vision quests and some go on very extended vision quests as they progress. The longest I remember anyone going on a vision quest was for 30 days, if memory serves me that person was Luciano yuwipi medicine man who was taught by Leonard Crowdog. Any quest longer than 4 days though and they let you drink sage tea or pejuta tea on a pretty regular basis to keep you hydrated. As to the nature of the visions, there exists many books on that subject, but I'll explain it as best I can. The visions vary. You may experience a completely different world/reality with no connection to this one, you may experience a hodgepodge of this reality and other realities in which you can not tell which is which in all cases. For instance, you may see a wolf. You may think that as everything else appears "normal" that this wolf exists in our world or plane of existence. However, that wolfs eye when it blinks turns into a butterfly and well... then you know that perhaps it is a butterfly... perhaps not, but what's fairly clear at this point is that the wolf is not part of our normal waking world. Perhaps you see a building suddenly appear in the woods... complete in every detail that you would expect to see if you were walking down any street... yet you know that you would have noticed if there was a huge building near your quest when you first went up... such a thing would not be done in the first place if it could be avoided. You may see and feel yourself as if you were flying... all of these things and many more are possibilities when you go up on a vision quest. I'll tell you a small bit about one experience of mine while I was visioning. It was dark and I cold not see anything. I could hear though and I heard the sounds of trees crashing as the wind blew. I thought, man... this is how I'm going to die. Crushed by a tree in the middle of a forest. I knew though that as long as I stayed in my altar and did not move from it that I was supposed to be safe. Operative phrase here... "supposed to be safe"... still, I didn't move as I thought I had just as much chance to die from a fallen tree if I moved. I stood their listening the the branches and the trees creak and fall. I was scared and to be honest, I think I made it that first night as I was too afraid to move or go down. Simply standing in one spot for 8+ hours was too much for me... yet I stayed as I was afraid I would be killed if I moved by some falling tree. I was ready for dairy queen by morning. Yet, I must regress a bit... as the wind died down I heard a rattling sound near my feet. Now I though, this is the end. There is a rattle snake at my feet and if I so much as move one inch he is going to sense me and strike. I literally froze in place for the rest of that night. Afraid to even move my head to attempt to see the rattle snake. I thought, "Perhaps, if I move my head slow like the hand of a clock that tells the hour... moving in miniscule increments that I'll be able to eventually gain a look at this snake and ascertain my next course of action." I decided against this for the time. As the sun broke through the sky and I began to see the world again... I started to move my head, ever so slowly over what I guesstimate to be several hours time, and finally... I caught a glimpse of the rattle snake... It was a moth on the pipe stem you see in the picture above. It was beating its wings fiercely as it struggled with an ant for its life. Man, I was nearly in tears as I thought, "How could I have wanted to go down... how could this be too much or too hard for me... After all, I'm just standing. This moth has been fighting for its life for half the night and continues to do so without missing a beat. This ant who fights back simply for a meal... Dairy queen seemed a bit trivial in my mind at this point. I was enveloped in a feeling of awe and respect for these creatures, for nature, and I thanked them both for helping me to get through the night as I knew without them and without the wind I would not have made it that first night. The ant eventually one the battle and dragged his prey out of my altar. I'll leave that story there with the added bit of information... after the quest was over.... I found several trees that had actually fallen in the night... so that part again appears to have existed in this plane of existence.

A bridge cross is essentially one that is done to enable you to breed desired traits from one cacti genus or species into another that can not be done via a straight cross. For instance, if I desire to cross Trichocereus x Lophophora... I may discover that this is not possible via several different means of mentor pollen, cut style, etc. Rather than give up or continue with this madness... You may discover that perhaps a particular Lobivia can be crossed to a certain Mammillaria. You may discover that Lophophora can be crossed to Mammillaria as has been previously documented. You may also see that this Lobivia can be crossed to Trichocereus. Its not hard to follow the bouncing ball and see that it is possible via a wide selection of crosses to eventually breed the desired traits from more than one species or genus into a single new hybrid. I've started this thread in hopes that some of the cacti giants that Lurk in here will post some relevant information. Relevant information is any known cross involving any active species with another species or genus. We can of course accept entries from anyone wishing to share relevant links to proposed crosses and I encourage everyone to post of known crosses. The idea is to come back and straighten out the results that ensue to create a master list of tried and tested crosses to shorten the time it may take to create some of these more novel hybrids. Anyone and everyone should post with any relevant information. We can straighten this out later and make it look nice and pretty... i.e. easier to follow. I'm relying on the cacti experts in here as well as the novices to all share a bit of research that they have done or are doing. Lophophora (seed bearer hybrids) Lophophora koehresii (seed bearer) x Lophophora fricii (pollen donor) =viable seed (courtesy information provided by KadaKuda) Lophophora fricii (seed bearer) x Lophophora koehresii (pollen donor) = not enough data/attempts made to warrant ruling this one out... no seeds thus far. (courtesy information provided by KadaKuda) L. diffusa (seed bearer) x Obregonia denegri (pollen donor) = pod produced... awaiting more information. Mammillaria bocasana (pollen donor) .... notes on F1 seedlings: Body shape altered and seedling hybrid spines 3 x longer Strombocactus hybrids... no species listed... no identifiable differences in F1 seedlings, possible parthenogenesis... F1 x F1 may yield determine validity of this cross or F1 x Strombocactus. Turbinicarpus schwaarzii hybrids... red and green scales around buds, large flower, petals pointed Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele hybrids (pollen donor) ... "Beautiful or the color of body and blossom alike"... more details needed. Was the color different and how so? All of the above information was given via the help of MS Cacti. Your help is always appreciated. http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...showtopic=19832 Astrophytum (seed bearer) Astrophytum. x Mammillaria. x Gymnocalycium... while not much information is given. It is understood that this means Astrophytum (seed bearer) x Mammillaria (pollen donor) = F1 A.M. The resulting F1 A.M. (seed bearer) was then crossed with Gymnocalycium (pollen donor). http://www.lapshin.org/cultivar/N18/exp-e.htm We need a list of other crosses attempted and or overlooked. The idea here is to present as much valid information as possible with the understanding that even the best of hybridizers makes mistakes. Open sharing can not be done and will not be done when a member feels like they have been castigated or might be castigated for any information they have shared. While it may seem absurd to someone to try a straight cross between Lophophora and Trichocereus both ways... has it been tried? How many times has it been tried? Did a pod form on either plant and if so was it aborted early? Sometimes the most absurd things turn out to be the very things that work or point us in a direction that will work. Try to keep an open mind and share what you have here guys. Links to sources are of course desired if and when possible. My idea is to move all of the relevant data once formed into one post which can be linked to this post for anyone wanting more specifics. Help me out guys. Knowledge is great, but it must be easily accessible and in a format that is easy to follow. Feel free to post any questions or relevant information in this thread. A cleaner thread will be made later. It is generally accepted that the above attempts were made via standard pollination techniques and so we can not rule out that more advanced techniques might yield better results.